Marbles in my starter/ no start

I recall seeing mention about a starter sounding like marbles in a tin can.
Can't find the thread again.

Tonight after work the starter cranked very weakly and then sounded like marbles in a tin can. This then changed to just a clicking noise.
No start.
Did the duck walk and 'push started' the bike.
Got home 20 minutes later and the battery reads 12.4 volts, bike started back up.

Water level was checked in the 2.5 year old battery earlier this month and was good. Oil was changed at the same time.

Will see if the battery loses it's charge in the morning.
The bike was sitting out in the sun today (90 degrees F) for 8 hours.

Is my 32 year old starter in need of attention?
If so, is there maintenance that can be done to it or does it need to be replaced?

Thanks!

 

12.4 volts is too low for a resting battery. You want to maintain above 2.10V per cell (for a wet cell, lead-acid batery) at rest, which is 12.6V measured at the terminals. The service life for a battery is an estimate that is based on it never dropping below a set state of charge (80% for most lead-acid batteries). Drawing the battery down below that state of charge reduces it's service life signifigantly. If that 2.5 year old battery was rated for 3 years of service, and if ever was drawn below 80% of a full charge, it's time for a new battery.

The sound you heard from the starter was the rollers in the clutch failing to grab. The most likely cause is the weak battery not allowing the starter to spin fast enough. If the noise persists once you recondition (more likely replace) the battery then there may be some more diagnisos to do.

 

So quite probable that the extra heat yesterday may have exhausted my battery that is nearing its end of life.

Thanks for the advice K-moe.

Today is going to be mid 90's, I might be buying a new battery on the way home.
Any recommendations on brands?

 

There is indeed "maintenance" that can be done to the starter as well. They generally benefit from a careful disassembly, cleaning, brush replacement, fresh grease on the gears, etc. A gummed-up starter doesn't spin with authority.

 

Get the green battery. I think it's interstate brand. They have always exceeded my expectations.

 

Battery was 11.2 volts this morning.
I suck at math . . . Battery was 4.5 years old not 2.5. 8O

Got a new battery this afternoon, missed the AGM thread, bought a flooded one from Remy with 165 CCA - $38.00. My old battery was also from Remy and only had 113 CCA.

Figure with proper maintenance I should easily get 5 years out of it.

Fitz - is there a starter re-furbish link? Can't hurt to freshen up the old girl.

 

This might be helpful.

Disconnect the Battery.
Unhook the Starter.
Dismount the Starter and get ready to rumble.

It comes apart.
Clean the "Three areas"

1. Planetary end.
2. Motor
3. Electric end.

Buy a few Bottles of Isopropyl Alcohol.
A "Trigger-Pump" Sprayer.

After you get it on the bench ...
Scribe lines on BOTH ends to aid in re-assembly!!!

Two long screws hold BOTH indexed ends to the main body.

Remove the gear end and COMPLETELY clean and re-lube that end.
You'll need to spread one Circlip to get the Planet Main Shaft out.
Keep track of washers and spacers.
Look on the ends of the shaft and inside the housing for thin Thrust Washers that like to stay stuck where they are.

Keep everything in order as you disassemble the Planet end.
Two small Planet Gears on opposed shafts.
The Ring Gear and Main Shaft.
Every Spacer and Thrust Washer.

Clean the "Whole-works" of the "Business-end." All of it so nice and clean a Marine Drill Instructor would have the Company check-out yours as good example.

Check for washers and thrust washers hiding on shafts and bearing ports.

Clean the Electric end; too.

Pull the Case away from the Motor -- slowly.
There's LITTLE slack in the wire connecting the Brushes to the External Power Post.
Slip the Brushes off the Commutator.
Look for a Thrust washer - inside the Case - surrounding the port for the case bearing bushing.

With the starter exploded. Clean.
Use straight Isopropyl Alcohol loaded into a sprayer that has the Stream or Spray option.

Withdraw the Armature.
Spray everything until its completely clean and what you are spraying ON and IN is as clean as what is dripping OFF!

Shoot the Commutator, Brushes, Brush Housing, Electrical Lead and the inside of the Electric end Case.
Clean.

Shoot WD-40 on the CLEAN windings and magnets.
Grease the whole-works as you reassemble the Starter.
Using Top Quality Synthetic Waterproof Grease:
Everything and every surface on the Planet - Business End - gets lubed as it's reassembled.
Shafts, shaft bushing ID's, washers, spacers, gears, pivots, bushings, etc.
Grease everything. Either liberally -- for function, or smeared-on for both rotational forces on it ... or, to hold it from slipping as you reinsert bearing shafts into bushed port on the case.

Spin the Planet Shaft after its re-clipped in and grease the rotating Planet Gears -- "On the Fly" ... as they rotate around the inside of the Ring Gear.

Lightly smear washers and spacers on the Electric End ... but, don't allow the grease to contaminate electric connections and Commutator.

Get a dab of grease into the port on the Electric end; and smear the end of the shaft which fits there.

Now, the fun and games of getting the Brushes lifted onto the Commutator and everything lined-up and back together begin.

It's like a Chinese Puzzle.

Only ... "Made in Japan" !

 

Bum starter clutch. Be careful with Rick's method for cleaning the starter. I thought that I had waited long enough for my starter to fully dry out and was wrong, frying the starter. Give it at least 12 hours.
I tried dumping kerosene into the oil and cranking the starter (mine works as long as the engine is cold) to clean out any deposits. It worked better for a while. You just have to buy cheap oil and change it a couple of times. When I tried this the oil which initially drained out was filthy black.
Get used to the rolling start when the engine is warm, park on the high side of slopes,etc.
Sorry for the bad news.

 

Only MAYBE. There are a number of other things that can cause the same symptom, and those are currently being addressed. (Battery, gummy starter, etc.)

Sure, the starter clutch itself is a possibility. But other things need to be eliminated first before jumping to that case-splitting conclusion.

 

Yea.... that's like waking up with a sore shoulder and deciding you need open heart surgery.... lets check out other options before having to split the bottom end.....

 

New battery! 8)
It's all good!

Rick, thanks for the detailed write up.
Sounds like a good project after riding season is done.

 

yea... it's an easy job too.... you may find that you need starter brushes while you are in there....

 

I've got very similar symptoms and have stated that pulling engine to split case and replace starter clutchis on the todo list for thus winter..... I guess i would like to know about the likeliness that a starter clutch swapis in order... Previous post suggest to look at averting else prior to jumpinconclusion mostly because of the hassle involved.... Its thus acommon failure in a bike thus age with 21k on the clock? a

 

No it's not.

There are indeed many other things that can cause the symptom, and it only makes sense to eliminate them before splitting the cases.

Imagine your reaction if you broke the motor down only to discover the starter clutch to be FINE...

 

I have/have had about two dozen xj's so far.............I've had ONE that does this when the engine is warm. I have NOT replaced the battery yet---am figuring to do that in the spring. I imagine the problem will disappear, but we shall see.

No, it's NOT a usual occurence for the starter sprag to fail. It CAN happen, but then again, a deer could walk through the gas station parking lot tomorrow, too................................

possible, but highly unlikely.

As others said eliminate all the possiblities. Do it in the order of least-involved to most-involved.

Dave F

 

I understand. Previously described procedures will be done and then results will be shared. I