Burning Out TCI Boxes

I'm new as a member to this site but I have been reading\searching it for a couple weeks now. I have to say I am very impressed with the help given and extent of knowledge shared. I'm very hopeful that someone can help me get my bike going again.

I have an '82 XJ750 J "15R" I have learned from my readings on here thanks again, I love The bike, its in great shape, runs great, and rides great.

Here's my problem... About every 400-600 miles I fry another TCI Box. I have put 4 in so far not including the original one that came with the bike. These are getting harder and harder to find and much more expensive when you do. Kinda takes the fun out of riding when you KNOW your bikes gonna DIE.

This is what I know so far... I got it for free from a friend that had to move out of state and wanted to see it go to a good home. It sat outside his garage for bout 2 weeks. In that time someone knocked it over , broke two blinkers and clutch handle. My Main concern is that SOMEONE HAD STOLEN THE STARTER! I found one on ebay at a good price and replaced it and the broken blinkers but what makes me worry is below the TCI box and voltage regulator? I Feel I'm missing a relay or something along those lines. I have a rubber holder that's about 1" by 1" and has a 4 pin connector that naturally hangs out right there by it. wires are as follows..
-Blue/yellow stripe
-Red/white stripe
-Black/white stripe
-Solid Black
Maybe side stand relay? (I have pics if you want them just not sure if they will work on here)
Local bike shops can't or maybe won't tell me what it might be or be for. Everything seems to work such as the blinkers flash and auto cancel, and it starts n runs. I also just found the probe for the battery buried behind the frame. Will this not being "rewired" to the battery cause these kind of problems?

I will be the first to admit I have limited electrical experience and am learning slowly as I go. I have tested all the bulbs (blinkers head/tail) for resistance against the battery ground cable and am getting 0.00"s on all. I HAVE replaced what I believe to be the voltage regulator (alum. heat-sinked box that mounts right next to the TCI box) on the hunch of a friend but had no better luck. I'm still working my way through and checking grounds but so far they all seem good and so does all the wiring on the bike even at wear points. As I said I don't know a lot of or what/how to check many things and ANY advice will be appreciated. (I'm not easily offended and will not be mad if you throw some "your a newbie" ideas my way) In my mind it almost seems like I'm getting stray power or possibly feedback to it and that's what's causing it to burn out, but that's just my theory...

One other question I have is both coils have "4H7" on them. "CM12-09" is the other number on them. From what I've read on here isn't that a 650 number? Does that matter?

If you have any further questions I would be happy to answer them!

Has anyone else had an issue like this or have an idea of what might cause this box to burn out? also how to test my voltage regulator?

 

Re: Burning Out TDI Boxes

Welcome to the forum cowboy.

This link will diagnose your regulator

http://www.electrosport.com/media/pdf/f ... iagram.pdf

As for your TCI, i suspect you are using incorrect ones for your bike. I think the correct one for yours is 5G2-82305-10-00. Somebody else may be able to confirm that.

 

Re: Burning Out TDI Boxes

That 1" x 1" rubber holder below the CDI & voltage regulator is where the little metal can should be.....that is where the sidestand relay is...fits into the little rubber holder...if it is not there, then your friend ( previous owner ) may have taken it out.....& bypassed the sidestand cutoff......you indictaed however that the bike is starting with kickstand down....if it is in gear with clutch pulled in & sidestand is down the bike should not start ( safety precaution )

 

My Electrical guru friend (knows cars houses and big rig wiring and kinda the principles of a bike but not skilled in them) came over shortly after I posted this and we found a wiring diagram and did some wire tracing and came to the same conclusion about the side stand relay (thanks fiveofakind). I honestly don't remember if I can put it into gear and it still runs or not as I haven't ridden it in over two years (stored at a friends house and kinda outta sight outta mind but now back at mine mocking me every day. I see it I get the itch again) Do you think that relay being M.I.A. be causing this? Or at least a contributing factor?

I just took a look at my TCI. it says;
TYPE TID14-06
5G2-10 small silver box has 112 stamped into it

I don't see the other string of numbers adrian1 mentioned...

As it sits right now I have a replacement box in place and it does start and run. really don't want to run it too much until I get something figured out for fear of not finding YET ANOTHER TCI unit. I'll look into the link for the regulator after work one day this week depending how late I get stuck there and post what I find

Once again THANKS for the warm welcome, quick responses, and advice.
I hope one day I will have some wisdom to share with some other poor soul in my shoes now. lol

 

Surfing eBay I found 2 side stand relays... I obviously don't know what the part number should be but one is off a XJ550 and the other one dosnt say but both have part numbers. The "unknown" one has the number 4U8-81950-02-00. The one off the 550 has OMRON 4U8-00. Both look like the same connector I have. Are they pretty much interchangeable? Will one of these work for me?

Thanks again in advance for the help.

 

Surfing eBay I found 2 side stand relays... I obviously don't know what the part number should be but one is off a XJ550 and the other one dosnt say but both have part numbers. The "unknown" one has the number 4U8-81950-02-00. The one off the 550 has OMRON 4U8-00. Both look like the same connector I have. Are they pretty much interchangeable? Will one of these work for me?

Thanks again in advance for the help.

 

OMRON 4U8-00 is the right sidestand relay. The other one, I'm not sure about, but will probably also work.

 

If your regulator is working properly, you won't get above about 14.5 volts as you roll on the throttle. If it keeps climbing past that, your regulator is not working, and you're going to overload the tci, and burn it out, as well as start blowing other fuses, fry the harness, etc......... been there.

Check to see what's happening with your electric load...............

Dave F

 

Chacal has a nice write-up......definitely take the time to read this......A lot of good info here

The Ultimate Relay, Switch, Sensor, and Diodes Guide

http://www.xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=27543.html

It will explain all the relays on your bike.....

 

Here is a pic of my '82 XJ750J Maxim IC ignitor The metal can below is the sidestand relay that goes into the rubber holder....mine is duct-taped ( rubber split due to dryness )...Notice the markings on the IC ignitor....

TID14-06
5G2-10

The 5G2-10 should match the markings on the timing plate on the pickup coil assembly

Here is a wiring diagram link by Metal_Bob

http://s835.photobucket.com/user/Metal_ ... 7.jpg.html

 

Well I got my side stand relay today and it tests good. I want to say thank you all so much for the help advice and the reading material... I really learned a lot! With the help of a few articles that I was sent links to I have tested EVERYTHING on the danm thing and everything from relays to switches to the coils and voltage regulator/rectifier all test good... I'm out of idea's! Lol gotta wait till payday (two more agonizing days) to renew my tags and go for a ride! Can't wait. If I burn up another then... Well... Parts bike for sale... CHEAP! Lol.

I pretty sure I remember reading that someone on this site can rebuild the TCI box on these... That right? I would be very interested in getting AT LEAST ONE if not two of my
old ones rebuilt just in case...

Wish me luck on my first ride on this ol' girl in almost 3 years... As long as I RIDE home and don't push or haul it home it will be a good day!

Thanks again everyone! I'll let ya all know how it goes

 

The guy who rehabbed TCI is a former Moderator.

Member name: robert

I haven't seen him as of late.

 

The guy who rehabbed TCI is a former Moderator.

Member name: robert

I haven't seen him as of late.

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/YAMAHA-FJ-XJ ... 231wt_1162

http://www.erd.co.nz/images/Yamaha%20Binder.pdf

 

He couldn't repair mine.

 

I could have a look at then if you want to send them down under?

Prevoiusly;
http://www.xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic ... t+tci.html

 

So I cheated and borrowed some cash from a friend till I get paid tomorrow.. had to ride! I taped my multi-meter to the tank and took a spin. It looks very crude but proved effective (if nothing else good for a laugh) its still running rough but getting better as I ride and run fresh gas through her. As I ride @ 3000 rpm I'm getting about 14.3 volts but when I wind er up I peaked at 14.75 v. At half throttle and above I'm averaging about 14.6 pretty steady. I understand over charging is a huge issue and they say 14.5 is the top end of the happy zone but will this extra 0.25 volts kill a box? Is their something else I can check or do to try n get back down to happiness? (threw in a pic for laughs)

 

That looks awesome...clever idea....

 

14.75 volts should not kill the TCI.

Have you a pic of the internals on the burnt out TCI?

Some areas connect to power and some switch the coils on and off. Depending on what section is burnt out, you may have a direction to look.

Are the coils standard? anything added or connected onto the coil switching wires from the TCI?

 

You might make sure that the coils are the right part number. Also make sure the leads from the TCI to the coils dose not have a higher than normal resistance. If they have a higher resistance than stock it could cause the TCI to toast its self

 

The coils have 4H7 as the main number the rest or the part number 12V CM12-09. I have found a few places and have gotten response to tell me I DO have the right TCI but I haven't found the right number for the coils... I would like to think their factory but not knowing anything about the bikes history your guess is as good as mine. The thing that makes me wonder is all the components seem to reflect the identification numbers of the vin. yet if that's the case wouldn't that mean the coils are off a 650? (im pretty sure the 4H7 is a 650 i.d. #) I will test resistance and post my findings later today.

Thanks again for all the help and ideas! Feels SOOOO good to ride again!

 

So talking with a few friends about my problem and we came up with a possible solution...?

If I were to put inline fuses to all wires on the TCI our logic is that if I was overpowering it somewhere I would just blow a fuse instead of the box? I can buy and carry fuses easily enough... Our OTHER thought was if I keep popping the same fuse it would lead me to my original issue... Anyone think this is sound logic and or anyone think it's possible to do?


If I do happen to be on to something here the next question is how do I know what amperage fuses would I need for witch wire? As I said before I'm no electrical genius by any means... (i can wire and basic trouble shoot but have no clue how to figure this out)

Any thoughts? Good or bad? I can take brutal honesty if need be lol

 

If the coils are 3 ohm, then at 12 volts they would in theory draw 4 amps each. At 14 volts they will draw 4.6 amps and at 15 volts it would be 5 amps.

A fuse it not precision enough for these changes, and the current draw in actuality is pulsed and the average current draw when the engine is running is a lot less.

Overvoltage will kill the box, but it would need more than 15v.
High resistance in the secondary may cause a problem, but it would require a coil to have internal tracking back to the primary.

If you suspect overvoltage, change the regulator.
After that comes wiring probs/mods and coils.

A pic of the burnt internals from the dead TCI may lead to more deductions on which circuit.

 

Soooo... Basically.... What everyone's REALLY trying to say is... I should just pop a box apart and post some pics...? If it can be fixed I really don't want to destroy it, but I guess if it will save the good one I have, then its all "for the greater good" right? Is their a peaceful way to get them apart? I don't have an old one handy but I thought it was basically a chip encased in epoxy? How do you not totally junk it getting it apart? If it will give me some answers I'm all for it just usually Learn all my lessons the HARD WAY and worried I will mess it up to the point that you won't be able to tell anyway. I am grateful for the advice I can get on this matter. Wether you tried and found the WRONG way or have done a dozen successfully any tips will be taken

THANKS AGAIN TO EVERYONE WHO HAS HELPED ME OUT SO MUCH ALREADY! And thanks for the site and willingness to help "some guy" half way across the country/world.

 

Soooo... Basically.... What everyone's REALLY trying to say is... I should just pop a box apart and post some pics...? If it can be fixed I really don't want to destroy it, but I guess if it will save the good one I have, then its all "for the greater good" right? Is their a peaceful way to get them apart? I don't have an old one handy but I thought it was basically a chip encased in epoxy? How do you not totally junk it getting it apart? If it will give me some answers I'm all for it just usually Learn all my lessons the HARD WAY and worried I will mess it up to the point that you won't be able to tell anyway. I am grateful for the advice I can get on this matter. Wether you tried and found the WRONG way or have done a dozen successfully any tips will be taken

THANKS AGAIN TO EVERYONE WHO HAS HELPED ME OUT SO MUCH ALREADY! And thanks for the site and willingness to help "some guy" half way across the country/world.

 

http://www.jetav8r.com/Vision/IgnitionFAQ.html

Dunno if this guy repairs XJ TCI's

http://viragotcirepair.com/

 

I agree the fuse idea will not do what you want. Just by chance have you verified that when you turn the key off that the power goes away at the 12v pin on the TCI. The theory I'm thinking is that the TCI is staying powered up all the time. Just a thought.

 

A very informative page about a similar Yamaha ignition system including pointers on how to disassemble and repair the TCI.
http://www.jetav8r.com/Vision/IgnitionFAQ.html
Oh...just noticed Adrian1 posted it up above, so +1. It's a good read for all.

 

Well I'm kinda stuck. I took the front cover off but I'm not sure how to get the board out. I took some pics and had one of the girls in graphics label them for me to make life easier for all. (one of the few perks to working in a small print shop lol)

I removed two small nuts (A) and the two screws on the back (C) its still firmly in there. I'm thinking the two spots (B) are solder joints need to be removed to get it out? I don't see any circuits going to these spots and if I gently pry on the opposite side of the board it will flex a bit but not on the (B) side.

I have the means to remove these solder joints and if I figure out what's bad, repair it. I guess I'm looking for a second (or third, forth, ect.) before I screw it up just trying to see inside.

Thanks again in advance for any input

 

From the link posted earlier:

Gain access to the PCB ("Printed Circuit Board").

Remove the top cover to the TCI (held by 4 screws).

** DO NOT TRY TO PRY IC-BOARD OUT OF THE TCI CASE!!! **
It is held in by one small Philip screw, and MORE IMPORTANTLY, is soldered to the plug pins molded into the side of the case. To get the board out you have to desolder the pins or break them off when you take it out. You'd then have to solder them (or wires connecting them) back together.


There is an another way.

Try to avoid pulling the PCB out of the case. Replacing any components while leaving the PCB still in the plastic box would be good. Ultimately you'd like to reuse the case / wire plugs , the whole setup. To get to the other side ..... cut a large "port-hole" into the plastic "bottom" (other side of the case). Use a dremel tool small cutting wheel. This is risky because you can accidentally cut into IC components on the board. MAYBE BETTER, a sharp knife heated with a torch (so your melting through the plastic). Anyway.... GOOD LUCK (Could be a Darwin award recipient!).

Lay the case flat. Cut down (knife straight up + down) into the case about 1/2” in from the sides. Another words you're cutting a rectangular hole out of the bottom cover 1/2” smaller than the bottom cover size. One end of the module has the metal heat sinks which is why you need to cut about 1/2” in from the sides.
**** Cut no deeper than about 1/8" or you will cut into IC components **

Then there is this from the Virago Board:

I tried to repair an early TCI and now have $50 in parts, a new soldering iron, a box of junk and 10 wasted hours to show for it. My problem was in the TCI connector to the pickup coil. Cleaning and refurbing the connector cured my misfiring. If you can benefit from my experience it will not have been for nothing.
Cheers,

 

you want some of this
http://www.mcmaster.com/#desoldering-braid/=oa503f

or one of these
solder sucker

we use a desoldering station but their big bucks

i think
http://www.mouser.com/
is easier to find stuff but
http://www.digikey.com/
has everything under the sun

 

In a pinch you could use stripped stranded copper wire as desoldering braid or you can get the solder molten than shoot it with compressed air. WARNING this will shoot hot solder all over the place so shoot it away from you.

 

You have the 2 screws out of the heat sink, now you need to desolder the 9 pins that go to the outer connectors and it will lift right out. Circled in red on the left.
http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/captn ... a.jpg.html
http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/captn ... sort=3&o=0
Sorry about the links, I'm no good at attaching pics.

 

just incase. have you checked to make sure you have a good seal on your ACG cover? I opened mine to reveal about a glass of water spilling out one time. bad rect/regulator soon to follow, ill be checking my TCI tonight before re-wrapping all the wiring. good luck. electrical is quite a learning adventure that constantly humbles you and gratifies you in the same stroke.

 

What happened with this, did you ever get to the bottom of what caused the TCI's to die?

My thoughts on the matter for now would be firstly check the resistances of the coils & their wiring, also the resistance of the pulser unit, and then check both the TCI earth (ground) for a good contact and check the power supply going into the TCI firstly making sure it's not significantly different to battery voltage & also like polock suggested, that it's switching off when the ignition is turned off.

Would be interesting to see what exactly is burning out on them if you got them open yet too?

 

Well... Here's my story. I got the fire lit under my a** late in the season and Wisconsin weather doesn't agree with thin blooded bikers lol. It got very cold very early this year and I only got about 400 miles on before it went into winter storage. I usually have the issue between 400-600 miles. So in reality... I don't really know. I tested everything I could and all checks out so fingers crossed I will be able to ride next year as well.

I did have a possibly diffrent issue on one of my last rides. It was about 37 degrees f. And it started hard and ran on only 3. I was hoping it was just the cold but never got better when it warmed up. I checked my plugs and 1-3-4 look great but 2 was black n wet. It has ample spark so I'm thinking I had bad rings or valves, haven't looked into it yet. Put in a new plug and ran like a dream all the way home. I have noticed in the past that this cylinder usually fouls out first. Again not sure if this is causing/caused by my box or just another thing to fix.

Unfortunately I won't really know more till spring but I WILL post any news good or bad when I get to ride again. For now... Time to get the sleds runnin! Lol

 

I did however get a box completely apart with a de-soldering tool and nothing visibly looks bad. I haven't had time to test everything yet but I see no signs of anything being burnt out and it doesn't smell like the factory smoke got out... Not sure what to think

 

Additionally, ... you need a Soldering Iron that offers Low Watts.

These are the least expensive one I found online.

I don't usually consider "Cheapest" when recommending a product.
But, if this rig works well enough to replace all the Caps and Transistors; you'll be saving some dough rather than buying a used one.

https://www.google.com/webhp?client=fir ... 3Aofficial

While not being specific to XJ Boxes, this DYI on Black Box rehab is worth reviewing before commencing the surgery on yours.

http://www.jetav8r.com/Vision/TCIRebuil ... build.html

 

If you are happy to sent the dead tci downunder, I could check and diagnose it for you. I have done this before in a thread for the user tumbleweedbiff.