Problem converting to LED indicators

I'd be grateful for any help regarding converting my XJ650 stock indicators to LED indicators. I can get my bike to work perfectly using standard bulb-type indicators with the original flasher unit but when I tried to fit LED indicators with chokes they come on brightly but don't flash. I read up on this forum and found that I needed to get a CF13 JL-02 flasher unit. I got one but nothing happens with it fitted. I can get them to light up very dimly with no flashing if I remove the indicator dash bulbs. Any suggestions please?

 

hey Robbie try installing a "Resistors" any LED resistor will do.

I am not 100% sure but give it a shot.

kinen1

 

LED's don't draw enough current to cause the Flasher to open and close.

You have to install "Dummy-loads.

Browse this site:

https://signaldynamics.com/

 

A Buss 522 (two prong flasher) will work perfectly, but you will lose self cancel. The only way to keep self cancel is with the CF-13 AND load resistors.

 

Thanks for your replies. Sorry I don't think I was very clear in my initial post. I have tried LEDs with the resistors that were supplied with them using the original flasher unit. The result was bright steady light (no flash). I then tried the same set up with a CF13 JL -02 flasher and got nothing unless I pulled the dash bulb out then I got a steady but dim light (no flash). The CF 13 flasher unit was sold with the promise of curing overly fast flashing or no flashing. I don't understand why the new flasher unit hasn't worked. I've tried the new flasher unit without the resistors too. No light, no flash.

 

May I offer a word of practical advice?

Is it really worth it? Are those LED signals THAT sexy; and more importantly, are they truly visible in bright sunlight? Or do you get so little of that... oh, never mind.

My point being, I've seen literally hundreds of LED turn signals on other bikes in traffic and I've yet to see any that actually WORKED, as in, more visible to other drivers than the stock, incandescent bulbs. Most that I've seen, you have to strain to see in bright sunlight. Hard to tell they're blinking, let alone even lit.

My solution was to fit less-ugly, modern Yamaha-pattern signals. With BULBS in them.

 

Yes you may Fitz.
There is a strong possibility that I will revert to normal bulb type indicators if I am not happy with the result regarding the LESs. In the meantime I have a technical problem that I am requesting help to overcome. I don't like being beaten by technical problems so I am hoping to complete the modification in hand and go from there. We do occasionally see sunshine in northern England, in fact last year I think we had a sunny afternoon in April. This year has been quite good. We had a few sunny days in July and August.
Seriously though, thanks for your technical input into this forum. You've been a massive help.

 

Just to bring this topic to a conclusion incase anyone is searching for a solution to the same problem, I managed to figure it out for myself.
To get LED indicators (signallers) to function correctly the procedure is as follows;
Fit the LED indicators in place of the standard ones without any sort of resistor, just wire them in exactly as the stock ones were.
Replace the flasher unit with a CF13 JL-02 flasher unit.
Run a separate ground wire from the negative spade terminal on the CF13 JL -02 flasher unit and fasten it to a convenient earthing point on the frame.
The LED signallers will now function correctly.

 

Well done Robbie!

kinen1

 

nice work. I am considering led signals myself. maybe just bulb replacements in the original sockets, maybe more.

CN

 

I went with LED blinkers on my bike and had success. I had to use an inline load equalizer. Here's an installation diagram to help show how it sets up.


Basically, like mentioned above, the LEDs don't draw enough current to trip the flasher relay. This doohickey vampires onto the line and draws enough extra current to trip the relay the way a normal bulb would without keeping the LEDs from getting power too. This works in tandem with dual-intensity resistors that let you have running lights, but takes a little thinking when it comes to getting the wires connected in the right way.

I got mine from here. It was the $15 universal metric (7.5 ohm) one.

Now I will admit that on my current setup, it's hard to tell what's a running light and what's blinking, but over the winter I'm adding more lights and making it so that my blinkers are off when not blinking and having separate running lights. Yes, I'll post pictures when I'm done, but don't hold your breath.

 

Also of note, when buying dual-intensity resistors from chromeglow.com, they ask you how many LEDs there are in your light assembly and give you a specific resistor based on that. So not having the right resistance probably explains the poor contrast issues bigfitz52 was complaining about.

 

"Dummy-loads"
LED Flashers
Other stuff related to lighting.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Hagan-Dum ... 47785.html

 

Contrast issues have to do with retrofitting LEDs into housings that are meant for incandescent lights, and LED assemblies that are not optimized for road use. The typical LED has a very narrow beam spread. I had a set of factory LED taillights for my Yamaha Zuma 125. They worked perfectly well, but the aftermarket (non DOT) LED signal lamps were worse than useless during the day. Not all LEDs are equal. Most of what is sold in the US is meant for display purposes (show bikes). Buy carefully.

With a proper, no-load or low-load, flasher, and diodes in the right places to prevent bleed-through, there is no need for load resistors. A load resistor is the easy way out of retrofitting LED turn signals, and negates the electrical advantage of switching to LEDs. Load resistors also introduce a fire hazard if they are not mounted carefully. A load resistor is no different in function than a ceramic heating element. They both turn voltage into heat.

 

the problem with resistors is to find the value for the resistor you have to use the max voltage that it will get, around 14.2 volts. when the brake light is on, your idling, headlight on, you might be down to 11 volts or less if your battery is a few years old.
that makes a difference in the led brightness, some more than others.
if you size the resistor for less than the max voltage you might blow them out.
http://ledcalc.com/

 

That's a different side of the works Polock. LEDs need resistors to prevent overvoltage from killing the diode. The value of those resistors is very low compared to the amount of resistance needed to trip a conventional bi-metal turn signal relay. LED signal units already come with the proper number and type of resistor(s) to prevent killing the diodes. That calc tool you linked would be very useful a person who is making their own LED array.

 

weather you or i or the factory is making the array the same principal applies.
the electrical system on these bikes lets the voltage vary a lot, way more than cars. unless a current limiting circuit is used to hold the current steady regardless of the supply voltage the mfg. has to use the maximum voltage expected for the resistor value.
a led bulb rated for can-bus/obd2 might have the current circuit in it, i don't know
http://www.skeenway.com/auto-led-bulbs/ ... light.html

 

http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=1 ... rsion.html

 

So now here's a question that I can't help but ponder: is there a flasher relay out there that could be swapped out with the stock one to work better with LED turn signals without having to resort to the load equalizer hand-warmer/fire-starter?

Or maybe it's better for me to step back a bit and pose a bigger picture question: when my XJ is cold/just-started/idling/low on a charge, the turn signals sometimes don't flash but rather just stay bright. Giving it a little throttle usually allows it enough juice from the alternator to cycle through the flashing sequence. This happened for me even on the stock setup, so it's not a result of my having switched my rear signals to LEDs. Is that (however unwanted) typical? Could moving to all LEDs with an appropriately lower-voltage flasher relay alleviate this? Does this hypothetical relay exist, and if so does anyone know where I can find it?

(PS, I don't claim to know what I'm talking about. I'm just informed enough to feel ready to experiment and report back on my own experiences. You all have free license to say "Dude, you've got it all wrong. Here's what's really happening. Yadda yadda.")

((PPS, Now I've actually clicked on adrian1's link and read through a bit. I believe I'll be adding this mod to this winter's project list. However, my questions about whether or not my flashing issues are normal still stand.))

 

OK, here's what's really happening:

At idle (or below about 2200rpm) the bike is running entirely on the battery. When you rev it up, the charging system comes "on line" so the signals begin flashing.

Your "flasher" symptoms are those of a low or weak battery.

 

The bike never runs entirely off the battery or it would only idle a few minutes, even on a good battery. The headlight would keep getting dimmer till the motor stalled.
There are electronic flashers that work without resistors. EL13 I think is the # bit not sure.
But you loose the auto-off feature.
There could be a few reasons your flashers won't blink at idle, battery, connectors, alt brushes, bulbs, grounds, flashers just picky.

 

Well, the battery is brand new as of last month. Most of the wire connections are either new or recently brushed/sanded/inspected for corrosion. I realize not all corrosion is visually obvious, and even just having metal that isn't shiny is enough to cause an issue, so I'm not ruling that out - just putting it at the bottom of the list. Ditto for grounds. Bulbs are all new.

Flasher relay is probably ok. I cracked it open back in August (2013 in case this gets looked at waaaay in the future) for a visual inspection and everything looked shiny and new (impressive for a 33 year old relay).

So I'd say this all puts the alternator brushes at the top of my list, which are probably factory original. Would you say its a fair bet that I should just buy some new ones and swap 'em out?

 

I had this same problem, and a new battery helped a little, but even warmed up, the signals barely worked at a stop - traffic light/stop sign.

What really fixed mine was a new fusebox. And I was able to see the bright light indicator for the first time in daylight.

It looks like you did that on your bobber, so not sure what it could be - unless other electric mods are drawing much more than stock, like the speedo

 

Yup, I went to one of those sealed case chip/blade setups. I'll check the voltage pull on the speedo, but I'm doubting it's that since this was all happening before the rebuild. (Though I suppose it's possible that all the clean-up I've done has been off-set by a higher draw from the speedo... I've been surprised by lesser things.)

 

Sorry to bring this topic back from the dead Robbie, but when you say run a seperate ground do you mean jack into the wire that was originally on the neg terminal or don't connect it at all?

 

Having similar issues. I installed LED turn signals front and rear on my XJ1100. They are bright, but don't flash. I got an electronic flasher from superbrightleds.com, but it was the wrong one. They graciously sent me another one, but I'm still having issues, no blinkers. They sent me a diode to be installed WITH the electronic flasher unit, but I haven't installed it yet. This can't be THAT hard, can it? Now, I will fully admit I am not a wiring guy. Any ideas?

On a separate issue, I replaced my stock 12v horn with a 12v replacement I received fom SickSpeed, but it doesn't sound right. They say I need a 40amp relay before the horn. Why would this be? Wouldn't they be the same? 12v vs. 12v?

Either way, I could use some simple help from the wiring gurus here. Blinkers and a horn would be awesome!

Thanks in advance!

 

I was wondering where this thread had disappeared to! Another thread was started just the other week about this, and we got some answers figured out, but of course new questions came up as well.

I should disclaim first: I am no electrical wizard, but I've managed to figure out a thing or two in my time. Both before the XJ and during.

The crappy diagram I drew should show you what I did based on Robbie's advice:

With the engine off, this worked great for me. Later when I actually ran the engine, I noticed that the flashing remained steady overall, but had random spurts of hyperflashing. My best guess at the time was that the ignition coil was interfering with the ground. I moved my ground to the mounting bracket for the horn instead, but to no avail: I'm getting the same random spurts of hyperflash. My guesses now are that maybe I need to shield the flasher block itself from the ignition coils, or maybe I just have a bad flasher.

The other guy in that thread is still working on his bike and hasn't run the engine yet to see if he gets the same random hyperflashing. I was going to PM Robbie to see if he had come across that himself, but now that this thread is back at the top, I'm hoping he'll see my question here.

Now, as for your horn issue...no idea, other than 12v = 12v, but 40 amp is way off. I think our horns run off a 10 or 15 amp line. You'd need something to boost the amperage for just the horn... or a different horn.

 

The horn will be wired directly to the battery via the relay, with the relay being triggered by the normal horn circuit. When the horn button is pressed it will engage the relay, which will in turn complete the circuit to the battery and sound the horn. If you continue to use the horn via the 10A horn circuit you will blow a fuse and/or start an electrical fire.

 

xj1100 do you have a indicator light in the inst? if so try disconnecting it, see what that does.
the 40 amp relay, i call bs on that. the relay should not need to be rated for more than the fuse. is there a little screw on it that might adjust the tone?

Mr.Wonder, don't call it a problem, call it a feature

 

You're one of my coworkers in the software development department, aren't you?! :lol:

 

Well, I'm not getting the random spurts of hyperflashing anymore. What did I change? I changed my front turn signals back from dual-intensity lights to single-intensity lights. I had put on aftermarket lights before that included a running light function. I was getting the power for the running light from the line that powered the speedo/tach dash light. In the Haynes manual electrical diagram for XJ650J Maxim, it's listed as the blue (L) wire.

I don't know WHY that would be an issue, but that's the only thing I changed this weekend. I'll report back if it ever starts up again. It's my assumption that the others using this relay setup won't ever notice the hyperflash issue assuming they're on stock(ish) lights.

 

FOLLOW UP:

OK, I'm an idiot! I was on the wrong side of the bike and changing the hazard relay and not getting anything....duh!

Found the flasher relay, swapped it with one from www.customLED.com
Works perfectly, flash rate is perfect, and I'm off for a ride!

If you have any issues and need help with LED's, I would highly recommend the guys at Custom LED. They are awesome and helped me figure it out!

Thanks for all the input guys! It's a beautiful sunny day and I'm off for a ride!

 

I tried and it would not work
used load resistors.. just was not worth it
went back to stock..

 

That's too bad, it really wasn't that hard once I got the right part. It should be a simple flasher relay swap. If I wasn't such an idiot, I would have figured this out along time ago.

 

if you really want led turn signals, and you want to retain the auto cancel without having to splice in load resistors, (which completely nullifies the power savings of led's). here is what you want to do...

http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=1 ... gnals.html


check the very last post for a schematic of how it all works according to the op.

CN