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Electrical issues... please HELP!

Discussion in 'XJ Technical Chat' started by Pat K., Jun 24, 2015.

  1. Pat K.

    Pat K. Member

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    Ok.. Here's the short version of a long story. 1983 Yamaha Maxim 750... Bought the bike last year then spent hundreds of dollars and thousands of hours going through it. I bought aftermarket mufflers and a K&N air filter so I completely cleaned and rejetted the carbs. Besides those mods it's stock. Bike was looking great and running awesome... I put it on the road at beginning of this season (about 2 months ago) and since then have put over 2,000 miles on it. Never had any problems until the other day. Bike died a half mile from home and wouldn't restart. Fired right up the next day but same thing, made it a half mile down road and died again.
    So I've figured out I have no spark after it warms up which I've been told by older more experienced riders is most likely a coil (coil pack) issue. Where do I start? What do I test? What am I looking for? I am somewhat mechanically knowledgeable but I'm an electrical illiterate! I hate electrical problems because of all the possible reasons for failure. Please help!
     
  2. Pat K.

    Pat K. Member

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    Some other key points I failed to mention in previous post....
    New battery
    New spark plugs
    P.O. changed stock fuse box to new style

    No blown fuses... Everything works all lights on dash starter turns motor over etc... But once warmed up no spark... Except when I turn it off.... When it's turned off I get 1 single spark.... Don't know what that means but maybe will help someone to narrow down my problem. Thanks in advance for any guidance you guys may have
     
  3. jokidd82

    jokidd82 Member

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    When you turn it off its shutting down a coil, and when this happens the electrical field is released into the coil wrapped around that. This steps up the voltage and pop it jumps the spark plug gap.

    Nature of electricity. Wouldnt worry about it.

    What i would do is after it takes a dump is hook a test light to the positive battery terminal and then to a signal wire.

    When it lights up it will tell you that you have ground control of the circuit and the coil should be firing. On the coils themselves there are 3 wires. Power, ground and secondary wiring...the big one.

    If you so both of the small wires to the big wire it will give a resistance reading on your multimeter. If you do power and geound, little wires, you should have a low ohm reading. Take those to spec and you should know if your coil died or at least is weak.
     
  4. Pat K.

    Pat K. Member

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    So is that spark when switched to off a sign of a coil being bad or is that just the nature of electricity and the single spark is normal and/or tells me nothing as far as what my problem is? Can we narrow it down or is this single spark a null & void issue and we'll move on.
    I do have a test light. I do not have a multi meter. (i can get my hands on one if need be) Are there any other tests I can do to test the coils with my test light?
    I'm assuming.... and I say assuming very cautiously as I know how troublesome electrical issues can be.... But I'm assuming grounds are all good as the bike always fires up cold...the next day after I push her home. I can start it and turn it off 10x and all is good. But once I run her down the road I got about 3 maybe 5 mins... Than BAM! like someone hit the kill switch she's dead and wont re-start/ 're-spark for hours.
     
  5. OrgangrinderA

    OrgangrinderA Member

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  6. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

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    I have what might seem like a silly suggestion. Bypass the sidestand safety switch, the go for a ride (around the block a few times; hit some bumps along the way).

    The single spark is a good thing. It's indicative of a TCI that is working properly.

    If bypassing the kickstand switch does not solve the problem then You very likely have a coil that has insulation issues once warm. It will need to be replaced.

    If bypassing the switch solves the problem, then you have a dirty switch that is getting tripped when you go over a bump and sticking; releasing itself later as the spring sloooowly works against the grime (I have had this happen). Clean it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2015
  7. OrgangrinderA

    OrgangrinderA Member

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    Hi, I would think it unlikely to be the coil packs, or pickups - unless both are failing simultaneously? Failure of one unit would cause cylinders 1 and 4, or 2 and 3, to die; with the other two still running. It is more likely to be the TCI unit becoming unstable on 'warming up' - but as this is one of the more costly parts to replace I'd try to get a specialist diagnosis first.... I'd also check the resistances through the kill switch and sidestand relay circuits first - and check all the multiway connectors for corrosion, etc. - just to 'rule out' the basics and the obvious!... I would also carefully check the coil pack HT leads and plug caps for soundness - and if a new TCI unit is indicated I might replace these anyway for the following reason: if the HT circuits should be compromised there is a danger that spark energy may 'backfeed' through the LT connections to the TCI module, and thereby damage it. If your TCI unit DOES turn out to be faulty, please bear in mind that the most likely cause is one or other of the HT 'loops' (coil+ - lead - cap - spark plug - cylinder head - spark plug - cap - lead - coil-) having gone 'open circuit' at some point; leaving the spark energy with 'no place to discharge' other than back through the TCI module. (This is why you should NEVER run these engines without all four plug leads connected!!!...) Hope that helps!??! Andy
     
  8. OrgangrinderA

    OrgangrinderA Member

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    Hi again, I don't think the single spark on switching off the ignition (or 'kill') is total confirmation that your TCI module is OK: it does indicate that your primary (low voltage) circuit is intact (ignition switch, 'kill' switch, sidestand relay, etc.), as are the relatively robust 'switch transistors' within the TCI. It may not, however, mean that the 'controlling components' within the TCI necessarily remain stable? These are rather more fragile (advance control, coil protection switch-off - which cuts the coil power if the ignition is left 'on' - etc.); and are the components most likely to be damaged by a 'rogue' HT discharge! If you think about it, I'm sure you'll understand that if the 'coil protection' componentry (within the TCI) were rendered 'unstable' by such an event - then it could reproduce EXACTLY the breakdown symptoms you are experiencing! Best Wishes, Andy
     
  9. OrgangrinderA

    OrgangrinderA Member

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  10. Pat K.

    Pat K. Member

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    Ok. 2 things... #1If the single spark when switched off is a good thing then I have a problem because I only get it to do that when the spark plugs aren't getting spark....
    To rephrase... When the bike starts and runs fine and I turn off I get no single spark. After I ride and it quits on me and I'm not getting sparks to restart, this is when I get the single spark upon turning off.
    Weither this is normal/abnormal good bad whatever I don't think its too big of an issue... i get that. I thought if anything, it might help me (well more you guys) to locate the main problem of bike losing spark in mid ride.
    Which leads us to #2... Side stand switch... Correct me if I'm wrong but does side stand switch cuts off power before starter right? If it was bad wouldn't the problem arrise during initial start up? Not when cruising down the road? Maybe I'm over thinking this...
     
  11. MattiThundrrr

    MattiThundrrr Not a guru

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    I think K-moe is saying that vibrations or jiggling when riding is causing a worn switch to lose contact, and grime in the return spring preventing it from re-connecting until later. In his scenario, engine temp is unrelated.
     
  12. OrgangrinderA

    OrgangrinderA Member

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    Just read your update; and what everyone else has suggested.... Also thought a little 'clarification' may be helpful - as perhaps my mention of the 'coil protection circuit' may have served only to confuse the issue (even though it works in identical manner to the spark control/advance functions...)?

    I suspect it WON'T be the 'coil protection' facility causing your problem - as you, it would appear, have been obtaining your 'single switch-off spark' immediately after the breakdowns you have experienced?

    ALL of the functions within the TCI unit ultimately produce the same effect; being a voltage, or 'pulses' when the engine is turning or running, to the coil switching semiconductors which cause them to turn off (go 'open circuit'). Simply stated, these semiconductors are no more or less than electronic 'normally closed' relays; which 'open' when triggered. (Think of them as 'old fashioned' contact breaker points: as they are 'closed' with 12 volts of LT 'juice' flowing magnetic flux builds up in the coil packs; and when they 'open' then 'pop' - a 'big fat spark' as the magnetism collapses, inducing a discharge across the HT circuit to fire the cylinder at exactly the correct moment!...) The 'front-end' of the TCI unit is a complex array of electronic 'mapping' and circuitry which takes crank position and r.p.m. from the pickup coils (maybe throttle position, etc., too - as on a Suzuki Bandit...), and 'works out' when to create the 'pulses' which switch off the 'relays' to 'time' the sparks. (This replaces all the old bobweights and springs, etc.; which were the next stage of development along from a handlebar-mounted 'advance/retard' control lever! Remember these? I do - 'cos as a kid I got it horribly wrong trying to start a Panther 'Sloper' with sidecar! The bloody thing damn nearly broke my leg - chucking me 'right over the bars' into a cattle hay manger which was to the front of the combination!!!... Remember 'kick-starts' too?!!?...) If the TCI unit 'senses' the ignition 'on' without the engine running, it will also produce a voltage to 'open' the 'relays' and switch off the coils - thereby preventing them from overheating!...

    I suspect that there MAY be a problem in the 'front end' of the TCI somewhere; this leading to 'instability' when the unit duly warms up (and an eventual 'reset' once it cools down again sufficiently...)? This is a very common failure trait with electronic componentry - and in your case may lead to a loss of the 'interrupts' which 'switch out' the coil LT circuits? It certainly does seem to 'fit' your scenario: immediately following your breakdowns you clearly must have 'intact' LT coil circuits (both ignition and 'kill' switches, the sidestand relay, wiring, connectors, and ignition coil windings are evidently passing current...); so switching off (at any point!...) performs the same function once only as the (TCI) 'electronic relays' would do repeatedly if they were working correctly - hence the single spark.... One check you could do on the TCI unit would be to leave the ignition on with a test lamp across a coil primary - then see if the 'protection function' turns it off automatically (as it should) within a reasonable period? If it does I would also very carefully check the wiring loom to the crank pickups: one wire is common to both - and if this should be 'hanging by a thread' (to break down completely when things expand slightly as they warm up...), it could cause the problem you describe? It has to be said that this is VERY unlikely indeed - but I did come across exactly this type of wiring failure to a Renault 'crank position' sensor just once only (and after the Main Dealer had already replaced the 'Ignition Control Module' at considerable expense)!... Happy 'hunting' anyway!!!...
    Regards, Andy
     
  13. OrgangrinderA

    OrgangrinderA Member

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  14. Polock

    Polock Well-Known Member

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    why don't you take the TCI off and send it to me. I'll plug it in my Seca and go for a ride. (with my TCI in my pocket, just incase) then one way or the other you can get back on the road.
     
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  15. OrgangrinderA

    OrgangrinderA Member

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    Just getting the hang of how things work on this site - and I might just have resent some of your own text/info as a 'reply' in error: if so - sorry!!!...

    The fact that you are getting no single spark on switching off when things are OK tells me the TCI 'coil protection' has been doing exactly what it should do AT THAT POINT: this unit is clearly intended NOT to 'power up' the coils unless/until it 'senses' crankshaft rotation (from the two pickups under the left front side cover.... That being the case, ignore what I said re. connecting your test lamp across any coil primary and observing if it 'switches off' within a reasonable period: the 'ground' side of the coils should be 'interrupted' at ANY time the crankshaft is not turning....

    The fact that you are also getting a single spark upon switching off in 'breakdown' mode suggests to me that the TCI unit is NOT operating correctly BY THAT POINT! The 'coil protection' and 'shaft rotation' functions have quit - with the result that the coils are 'switched in' permanently.... (I suspect they might start becoming quite warm, quite soon, in consequence!??!...) This being the case, you 'switching off' is the 'LT interrupt' which creates the spark - as a 'one-off' event!... If your machine is wired similarly to my XJ900F then your sidestand relay is connected directly to the TCI module? However, you would not be getting any spark at all immediately on breaking down if this had 'cut' the system!

    Once again, happy hunting!...
    Regards, Andy
     
  16. Polock

    Polock Well-Known Member

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    damm, you guys are smart
     
  17. OrgangrinderA

    OrgangrinderA Member

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    Hi there, I'm in the UK - 'right next door' to Silverstone Circuit (F1 G.P. in a week's time!!!...).... If our friend can send his TCI module to you for a 'test run' I think you could save him a whole load of grief/time, etc.? Just make sure you've got your own with you - as it does sound like this is his problem!??!... Thanks, Andy
     
  18. fiveofakind

    fiveofakind Well-Known Member

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    Best way to to test a TCI......send it to someone with a known good running machine.....let them test it & send back to you.......

    K-Moe did it for me once & was much appreciated.......save a lot of aggravation & eliminated that from the equation.....

    Send your TCI to Polock if he is willing to test it....or me if you want to...he is closer geographically.....
     
  19. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

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    The side stand switch cuts power to the ignition, not the starter. You can start the bike with the stand down, but it will cut power to the ignition if you leave it down and shift into gear. It will also cut power while riding if the switch is faulty or not clean. I spent 1/2 a day stalling every time I hit a bump until I checked the switch and found it to be dirty.
    It's just a guess, and will eliminate a easily checked source of the symptoms you describe.
     
  20. Pat K.

    Pat K. Member

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    You guys are awesome. I'm new to this forum as well so wasn't sure what to expect, but you guys know your sh*t! Thanks for all the repsponses so fast. I really appreciate the help. I have been busy last few days... Havnt had much time to be wrenching on her but I will soon! I wanted to post an update here so we keep this thread fresh as I'd like to get back on 2 wheels ASAFP!
    Ill have a multi meter tomorrow. I'll get back to you with what I find out. Thanks again everyone.
     
  21. Pat K.

    Pat K. Member

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    I work nights. Stopped on way home got multi meter... Had to at least open it give it a test run... Let's back way up now to the 1st test done on an ignition system, the new battery I purchased 2 months ago.. 10.55 volts.
    Isn't that low? Considering its basically new? I was expecting to see closer to 12. Maybe I'm over thinking again. It's been a long week.
    Off to bed now. Supposed to get a lot of rain here over this weekend. For once I'm excited for shitty weather... Garage time! Cold beer, Haines manual & new multi meter VS a stubborn old girl from Japan. Wish me luck.
     
  22. Pat K.

    Pat K. Member

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    Exactly. Yes. Single spark issue only happens after it dies and won't start. I know everything is working and bike will start when I do not have the single spark upon hitting kill switch.
     
  23. Stumplifter

    Stumplifter Well-Known Member

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    Disclaimer:
    Electricity is magic to me.

    10.55 volts is low. It may be enough to crank but I would put battery on a tender, give yourself the best starting point possible. A 2month battery should go to a fully charged state (12+ volts) and stay there .
     
  24. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

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    Check the voltage at the battery terminals with the engine running. We need to know the voltage at idle, at 2,000 RPM, and at 3,000 RPM.
     
  25. OrgangrinderA

    OrgangrinderA Member

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    Hi, I've just been trying to get together a few tests I could then tell you how to replicate (my model is a 1993 XJ900F - but I believe your electrics are similar)?

    On the basis that you would be unlucky to have suffered a failed TCI module, I have been trying to find ways of fairly confidently 'ruling everything else out' before suggesting you 'bite the bullet' and replace it!??!... In the course of that I have replicated a 'failed pickup' (open circuit 1/4 or 2/3 alone...) scenario; and I DID get my TCI module to switch the coils 'on' - replicating your 'single spark' output on operating the 'kill' switch!!!...

    This does suggest that the 'crankshaft rotation sensor' is triggered by just one of the two pickup coils; i.e. if you 'lose' one it affects two cylinders - if you 'lose' the other it stops the bike dead (as your 'coil protection' facility quits, and with it the ability for the TCI 'output' to go 'open-circuit' at all - rendering the coil pack 'powered up' permanently...)?...

    What you need to do, therefore (now that you have a multimeter...) is this:-
    Unplug the left (three wire) connector from the TCI unit, set your test meter to 'Ohms' (make sure your test leads are in the correct sockets on the meter!!!), and check between the black and grey wires - then, also, the black and orange (the wires to the connector - NOT the pins on the TCI they engage with!...).... You SHOULD get readings (set the meter to the 'range' that reads most consistently) of around 120 ohms (+/- 20 percent) - and BOTH should be fairly similar?! If that checks out, start the bike - and run it until it quits. Then do the same again: if either pickup coil circuit has greatly changed - especially if 'sky-high' ('open-circuit') or very low ('short-circuit'), the pickups are knackered!... If not, I'd bet your TCI is the problem!??!... There do seem to be several on eBay at present? However, do be careful that you are not substituting one faulty secondhand part for another!... Hope that 'sorts' it!??!...
    Best Regards, Andy

    P.S. In case your wiring colours are not the same as mine, one wire is 'common' to both pickups. If your colours should be different, you are looking for similar readings across two pairs: it's just that you need to identify the 'common' wire (the equivalent of the black...) - and so check between it and the two others in turn?!!... Do tell me how you get on!...
     
  26. OrgangrinderA

    OrgangrinderA Member

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    Just one other thing. It is very common for TCI pickups to 'go down' when your engine warms up - then (temporarily...) 'recover' when it cools down - which is why I wondered about them in the first place! I was 'sidetracked' by not taking into account the possibility of the 'coil protection' function operating from one pickup coil alone - so logically expected failure of one or the other to affect just one 'pair' of cylinders (1 & 4 or 2 & 3)!...
    Assuming, after all this, that it IS a duff pickup coil rather than the TCI unit?!!?
    Andy
     
  27. Rooster53

    Rooster53 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    On the 750 air cooled I believe the pick-up coil spec is 650 ohms +/- 20%. I would also add to check them to ground.

    I had this discussion with what I consider a quite knowledgeable member sometime ago. He assured me an open circuit in the pick-up would not cause the TCI / Coil self protect circuitry to fault, and continuously drive the coils. Very interesting, maybe I should try it on my 82 to see if it will duplicate.

    Hopefully, member advice on battery voltage will yield some results. The TCI is reportedly very sensitive to voltage, and the 10.5V battery voltage is quite low.
     
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  28. Polock

    Polock Well-Known Member

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    10.5 volts is what i would expect to see on a good battery with one shorted cell. if this is a wet cell battery see if you can verify that all six cells bubble when it's on a charger. if it's not a wet cell you're going to have to use the 10A scale on that meter.
     
  29. OrgangrinderA

    OrgangrinderA Member

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    Hope my TCI module is not about to go t**s up!? I was 'fiddling about' attempting to 'rule out' a faulty TCI module by getting a 'healthy' one replicate our friend's 'quit' symptoms; and the fact that I seemed to achieve it turned my attention back to the pickups. You're right to draw attention to the importance of 'infinite' resistance to ground from ANY pickup wire - also the fact that specified readings may well be different from those on my XJ900F!??!... I do believe our friend has a recent battery; and access to a Haynes manual (in which case the specs. should be at the beginning of Chapter 4?!...)?... A low battery voltage reading may suggest a regulator problem - leading to dropping voltage as the bike warms up (especially bearing in mind the recent battery...)? This I suggest, however, should NOT lead to 'permanent power-up' of the coils in 'failure' mode?!!?... Yes, TCI units 'like' a 'healthy voltage' to the supply side!... I have fitted an additional relay to avoid 'voltage-drop' through the ignition and 'kill' switches; fed from its own fused supply. I've also fitted a larger and much better quality fuse box - to facilitate 'fully independent' and 'appropriate' protection for everything! (One fuse clip had melted away from the plastic before I bought the bike - so I've 'upgraded' the system, which includes 'relay-switching' the lights, etc..) I normally see - having carried out all these various improvements - consistent 13(+)V readings (with the engine running...) at all points under load (HID plus LED lights)!...

    If our friend's charging output/regulation is indeed suspect, and the voltage as low as stated, I would expect this to seriously affect lighting performance?!? He has not indicated that this has been a problem as yet - but 10.55 volts at the battery would even possibly indicate a 'dead' cell on his 2 month old battery?!? Maybe the system has been consistently overcharging - and has been 'cooking' things, including a new battery and the TCI module?!!!?... Before doing ANYTHING else at all I would check the voltage at the battery with the engine running: if above 14.9 volts switch off and change the regulator/rectifier unit - FAST!

    If consistent overcharging has 'cooked' a cell, the battery will no longer be acting as a 'buffer' - potentially leading to excessive voltages throughout the system!?! Has the bike been tending to blow bulbs lately?... I have an Acumen alarm system which tells me if it 'sees' excess voltage at any time: a very worthwhile investment indeed!...
    Best Wishes, Andy
     
  30. Polock

    Polock Well-Known Member

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    there's a white 3 conductor plug that brings AC from the alternator to the regulator. these are known to melt from several problems. that would be a good thing to look at
     
  31. OrgangrinderA

    OrgangrinderA Member

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    Mine was fairly grim! If the 3-way goes short-circuit, it will likely burn out the stator coils: if open-circuit (on just one wire) the unit will 'single phase' - vastly reducing output.... Any more than that: no power at all! The 2-way is the 'exciter' in-feed; and any problems here will produce symptoms similar to knackered brushes!

    I'm beginning to wonder if an undetected overcharging situation has been the root of Pat's gremlins - and the bike has slowly been 'cooking' batteries and components? It is a little unfortunate that bike charging systems seem to 'over' rather than not 'do the business' when things go wrong!?! In view of their cheapness and availability these days, I'm seriously considering the fitment of digital voltmeters to my bikes - despite the 'all-dancing' alarm systems!...
    We'll get him back on the road in the end!
    Andy
     
  32. MattiThundrrr

    MattiThundrrr Not a guru

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    oops... sorry
     
  33. OrgangrinderA

    OrgangrinderA Member

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    Last edited: Jun 30, 2015
  34. OrgangrinderA

    OrgangrinderA Member

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    Hi, I have to say I was doing some very quick checks indeed to hopefully 'rule out' the pickups - before suggesting Pat K. should go ahead and replace his most expensive component in the system, i.e. the TCI module!!!... The information we have thus far does also suggest that the electrics in general, sidestand relay, etc., are ALL duly functioning as they should - though the revelation that a 'new' battery is only yielding 10.55 volts would indicate a plausible, even likely, instigating cause; namely overcharging/overvoltage which may well have been 'cooking' everything over some considerable period?!!?...

    I was also 'rushing' to get enough 'written up' to give our friend 'something to go on' over the weekend (in between long days motorsport officiating in succession...); as I knew he had just 'armed himself' with a multimeter, and so was far better placed to make some meaningful progress....

    My 'quick checks' involved dissecting a multiway connector off an old loom, and plugging three terminations (with their attached 'fly leads') onto the TCI 'pickup circuit' pins. I was then 'open' circuiting, 'short' circuiting, and 'shorting them to ground' in rapid succession; turning on and off at the 'kill' switch comparatively quickly with each configuration!... Once I seemingly replicated the 'one single spark phenomenon' I had fulfilled the purpose of the exercise - namely to demonstrate that the pickups were demanding of more thorough investigation before 'biting the bullet' and replacing the TCI module!?!...

    If your submission that 'faulty pickups would not cause permanent power-up of the coils' is indeed correct - then, I think, we must also have formed the conclusion that Pat's TCI module has to be faulty?!?... This being the case, it is entirely possible that my 'single spark observation' could have been a 'red herring' resulting from 'surge conditions' brought about by my rapidly flicking on/off at the 'kill' switch - particularly with my 'battery voltage to TCI and coil packs' relay modification?!??

    I hope we may have persuaded Pat K. that electrics are not such a 'dreaded black art' after all - and I trust that we have perhaps dispelled a degree of the mystique?!!?... It is crucial to note that a 'duff' battery puts the regulator/rectifier at risk: likewise a faulty charging system may 'boil' any new battery - as well as 'over-volt' the whole of the system!... Accordingly if ANY of these components are to be renewed, it follows that ALL the others should be thoroughly checked out - and replaced as necessary?

    If you have a 'Haynes' manual and access to a multimeter (or two in some cases: at least a second DC voltmeter?...), there can be NO excuse for NOT doing this!!! Many electronic components will be 'bruised' by over-voltage - and there really are enough of them on any bike built since 1975/80 to make such omission a dire false economy!

    I don't think I know of a 'Haynes' manual which does not explain in very clear, easy to follow, steps, how to thoroughly check out your bike's charging system - so why not 'take the plunge' and give it a go?... Do use a 'decent' multimeter WITH on-board fusing (so if you DO get anything 'horribly wrong' a fuse 'clears' - rather than the test leads/probes becoming incandescent with your paws wrapped oh so tightly around them!!!...), do make sure the test leads are in the correct sockets on the meter for the test being undertaken (if you've just been checking 'amperes' and switch to 'volts' without relocating the meter leads, there may be an 'interesting firework display' and/or a loud bang!...), and be particularly careful to ensure that test probes 'pushed into the backs of' connected multiways, etc., do not touch adjacent wires, pins, or ANY surrounding metalwork (or you may find them 'a little shorter' than when you started out!?!...)!!!... Happy testing!... Andy
     
  35. MattiThundrrr

    MattiThundrrr Not a guru

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    Wow... I feel the way Pat did (does?) regarding electrons... A dreaded black art indeed!
    On a post that's trying to encourage him (and me indirectly), we find:
    and:
    Yikes. Lots of useful info, but I think I'll clean my carbs or something simple!
     
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  36. OrgangrinderA

    OrgangrinderA Member

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    I do a lot with 'specialist' vehicles (self-builds, 'one-offs' etc.) and the 'technical' side of motorsport (safety, etc.); and in the course of that I frequently notice first-rate engineering/preparation 'let down' by a 'dog's breakfast' of electrical systems!... As someone who 'has never had a problem' with electrical/electronic circuits, I find it quite difficult to understand how/why so many otherwise fantastically competent engineers get this area 'wrapped around their necks' to the extent that they clearly do!!?... The subject evidently does remain one of mystique - and unrelentingly very much a 'black art' to a great proportion of motoring/motorsport/motorcycling buffs!

    I promise you that the 'basics' ARE really simple: you will NOT get electrocuted by a 12 volt bike system - BUT you DO need to be careful with the ignition HT output! (It is certainly NOT a good idea to 'get wrong side of this' should you have a pacemaker fitted!!!...) The ONE thing you must always be consistently aware of is that ANY half-decent automotive (car/bike, etc.) battery represents a formidable source of energy SHOULD you 'short' circuit it!... THINK: is there any chance that the piece of wire I am holding in my hands could 'get across' the two battery terminals without a fuse 'in series with it' EVER?!? (IF the engine is running this also applies to the regulator output - AND the three alternator leads to the rectifier/regulator unit!) WERE you to get a piece of wire having a 'cross-section' of the average in your harness - or indeed your test cables/probes - DIRECTLY across your battery terminals then it WOULD get VERY hot VERY quickly; OR - there might be a flash and a bang as the bits making immediate contact instantly vanish, flying everywhere in molten form (so effectively acting as an 'ad hoc open fuse' of rather larger capacity than is really desirable!)!!!

    For obvious reasons, I generally attempt to avoid this if the wiring in question runs up under the fuel tank - or should my test probes be ANYWHERE WITHIN 'shouting distance' of those four fuel-laden thingys called carburettors. Having said that, you would be VERY unlucky to achieve this: If your bike is wired anything like mine - as, I suspect, it will be - there is a 'main' 30A. fuse within the box which 'protects' the main battery 'source feed' off the starter solenoid.... Unless you are testing directly off the battery or the starter solenoid feed terminal you should 'blow' this IF you get things horribly wrong: you will likely get a small shower of sparks for your trouble into the bargain - but hopefully not along with it sufficient 'heating effect' to create lasting damage? TIP: I swap this out for a 10A 'spare' while doing electrical testing. That way I know it will 'blow' before any real damage is done, should I get it wrong and inadvertently create a 'short' circuit?!

    Years ago I made myself up an 'idiot-proof protection device' - recommended for any electrical novice 'learning the routines' of testing/fault-finding. It consists of a heavy duty in-line fuse holder, two (battery) ring terminals, a length of wire with a 'booted' (fully insulated) crocodile clip, a short nut and bolt with 'snap together' cover as per the battery terminals, and an insulated in-line heavy duty 'pluggable' connector. The + lead is disconnected from the battery so that the in-line fuse holder may be wired 'in series' with it; the bolt connecting it to the main cable being protected (from any contact with the 'grounded' frame, etc.) by the 'snap together' cover. The cable to the insulated crocodile clip leads off from this end too. The heavy duty in-line 'pluggable' connector leads go to the 'ring terminals' also: any attempt to use the starter would, of course, overload and 'clear' the in-line fuse; so this provides a convenient bypass arangement.... (Just please don't forget to disconnect it again - once the engine has started!...) The in-line fuse can be selected to 'blow' at whatever capacity should not 'fry' the component being tested - IF any mistake is made, or if the actual problem is a latent 'short' circuit somewhere?!!?...

    Just a 'quickie' about multimeters: if you are checking volts or ohms the meter goes 'across' the component/circuit. If you are checking currents (ampères) the meter is 'in series' with the component/circuit - so passing the 'power' straight through (with minimal resistance...)! If you forget to re-patch the meter connections after such a test - and then go to test battery voltage, alternator/regulator output, etc. - then, of course, you are effectively connecting the said component to a 'short' circuit: if your meter has on-board fusing, that fuse will 'clear/blow' instantly - duly performing its function to 'protect' the 'fault' situation. If not, smoke may be arising!??!... We've all done it at one stage or another!!!...

    You see, I hope, that it's not that difficult really?... Of course it is true that electrical faults can, AND DO, cause fires - but if you understand how 'short' circuits and/or an 'overload' might arise, you should have it licked?!! Yes, it sounds dramatic - and is - if you get it wrong; but the whole purpose of this is to help you avoid that! My father dropped a fairly heavy spanner across a 6 volt tractor battery when I was a kid: the spanner went flying up in the air, molten lead and sulphuric acid exploded all over, and when the spanner landed (sizzling in a puddle...) the hefty shank was a strange 'U' shape and part of one jaw was just no longer present!!! (My Art Master at school graded it as excellent modern sculpture!)

    Father, of course, created a classic 'short' circuit; and when the spanner landed (the steel one - not him!...) it was (to quote my grandfather - a blacksmith...) around 'full welding' heat!!!... DON'T DO IT - but if you think there is any chance at all you might, then make sure there is an appropriately-rated fuse which will melt safely - before anything else does!... Happy fault-finding!
    Andy
     
  37. Polock

    Polock Well-Known Member

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    you can eliminate most of your flash,bang, smoke fear during testing by replacing the battery with a battery charger on a two or ten amp setting
     
  38. OrgangrinderA

    OrgangrinderA Member

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    Hi 'Polock' - just a 'quickie' (as it's British Grand Prix Weekend at Silverstone; and I'm 'backwards and forwards like a yo-yo' at present - ten minutes away on a pedal-cycle - as part of the 'technical' sound and lighting crew for the concert programme).

    A battery charger with 'built-in' readily accessible 'output' fuse certainly has its uses: I have several around - and the 5A. fuses will readily 'blow' before damage is done should one 'get it wrong' and 'short' them out!... There is, however, one major caveat when dealing with the increasing prevalence of electronic systems: battery chargers when connected alone (in place of the battery) generally do not provide a sufficiently 'smooth' power source for the electronics to function correctly; and you will very likely find 'all manner of strange things' happening in consequence!??! The battery provides the 'smoothing buffer' to avoid this - but along with it, unless 'fused down' as previously described, sufficient 'juice' to get you into a whole lot of grief if you make mistakes!!! I am in the process of 'upgrading' my bikes to HID 'constantly on' dipped beams - with supplementary switched LED ('Cree') units providing the main/driving beams: these components - generally speaking - 'do not like' battery charger power AT ALL; and I, suffice it to say, was beginning to believe I had been supplied with some 'duff' ones until I duly realized the problem!!!... The lamps were coming on intermittently, not coming on at all, going into 'protect mode' after only a second, etc.; all because - as I am in the process of fabricating a 'custom loom' to cater for these modifications - I had taken the battery off, and decided to 'test power' with a charger!... Because the manner in which my XJ900F is now wired (with the 'direct feed relay' powering TCI and coils) makes it 'dead easy' to do, I have just run a couple of brief experiments - using two different battery chargers as sole power feeds for the ignition (TCI and coil packs) alone: if you 'scope the (orange and grey on my bike) 'coil switching' TCI outputs, it is quite clear that electronics 'do not like' this at all!... Being 'into' sound equipment and 'musical instrument technology' as I am, I also have a 'stabilized' adjustable DC power supply (with built-in 'short' circuit protection, etc.) - and that DOES make an exceptionally useful diagnostic tool: if one is dealing with digital/'CAN-bus' systems (bloody awful idea on any motorcycle - if you ask me!?...), then it is ESSENTIAL!?!...

    Just one other quick important reminder when diagnosing electrics: it is crucial, if running your engine, that the alternator and/or rectifier/regulator ALWAYS should remain 'firmly connected' to a serviceable battery! It is worth keeping a close eye on the main fuse, and/or any in-line 'battery feed' fuse IF you've 'cobbled up' an 'idiot-kit' like mine, when the engine is running to check that neither has failed?! I have a 'SBC' bulb-holder ACROSS my in-line fuse holder - so a 5 or 21 watt bulb therein will 'glow' should that fuse 'clear' under load!? Unless there is a very good reason not to I put 30A. (rather than the 10A. substituted for 'test' purposes...) fuses back into 'feed' systems whenever I am about to run the engine: IF the bike should 'suddenly' start misfiring in such circumstances, SWITCH OFF - and double-check any 'main' fusing again!!! It could well be that this fuse has 'blown' - so the battery is 'OUT OF circuit' but the engine is 'self-powering' directly from the charging system? Your misfiring may be due to the electronics 'not liking' the loss of a 'buffering/smoothing' battery - with the accompanying loss of charging voltage stability?!?... You would not want to discover this when the engine quits on losing electrical ignition feed power - just because you have unnecessarily 'f***ed' the rectifier/regulator by failing to notice that the battery had 'disconnected' itself (upon 'clearing' of that fuse...)!... Neither would you want to later find that system over-voltage during the moments leading up to charging system failure also 'fried' your TCI module ('bruising' components sufficiently to precipitate unreliability or failure further down the line?...)!!! I hope all my 'blurb' has given Pat K., or anyone else experiencing electrical 'gremlins' etc., a sufficiently 'boosted' level of confidence and understanding to at least 'have a try' in resolving them?... You learn by doing!...

    I'm off to Silverstone Circuit/Whittlebury Hall any time now: hopefully I won't have another three-phase generating set with a 'dodgy neutral' to contend with! (Anyone 'really into' electrics/electronics 'will have a good laugh at my expense' appreciating the significance of this comment!?!... Yes, I'm running 'digital snakes' and 'DMX512' controlled stage lighting/effects!... Can you just imagine the 'fun and games' a wobbly power supply could cause with this lot?!? In case anyone was wondering - yes, I did identify/locate the problem BEFORE ANY damage was done: I'd give a 'digital' desk around three nanoseconds had I not!!??!)
    Cheers for now, Andy
     
  39. wizard

    wizard Active Member

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    Can your prolixity be customised with authentic answerability & strengthened accountabilities, to meet our amorphous challenges ?
     
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  40. OrgangrinderA

    OrgangrinderA Member

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    Yes: someone else competing for the 'Golden Bull Award' I see!?.
    .
     
  41. Pat K.

    Pat K. Member

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    Wow!... This has been entertaining on so many levels... You guys are awesome! I can't believe this forum has gone on so long and I appreciate the many different replies. That being said I would like to answer and address each and all of your responses.
    First off... I might not know all the ins and outs of this dark magic but I do concider myself to be somewhat intelligent. When it comes to electricity I have a general knowledge of how shit works. There will be no booms, bangs, zaps, or sparks and definitely no flying molten metal when I preform my tests. Yes I have a multimeter and a Hanyes manual. It's not exactly clear and easy to understand. I am working my way thru the electrical chapters and I do have a battery charger as well. I know how to run tests. My problem is I don't know what or where to test and I'm not sure what values I'm looking for on my multimeter... That's what I need the help with. I'm getting there. We're getting there (i should say)
    ok so where to begin .... I charged my battery a few days ago. Today I have 12.47 volts. (AGM closed cell type battery - not wet open cell type) Hopefully the day I got the 10.55 i overlooked the fact I had been cranking the motor over checking for spark quite a bit that day. Since it held charge overnight I'm thinking it's okay. Further tests will tell I'm sure. I took coils packs off. I was able to get a "primary resistance" of 2.6 to 2.7 from each coil pack. I'm having trouble getting a "secondaryresistance" reading. When I fish around I can get a reading but not sure exactly what scale to set meter to and or what to actually touch with the probes.

    Next test will be to put things back together, get her to run and test battery and alternator and charging system. More results to follow shortly...
     
  42. chacal

    chacal Moderator Moderator Supporting Vendor Premium Member

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    For all XJ models except XJ700, XJ750-X, and XJ900 models:

    Primary (input from TCI): 2.5 ohms +/- 10%
    = 2.25 ohms - 2.75 ohms acceptable range

    Secondary (output to spark plugs): 11K ohms +/- 20%
    = 8,800 ohms - 13,200 ohms acceptable range
     
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  43. Pat K.

    Pat K. Member

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    Can't get a steady "secondary" reading off either set of coils... Leads me to believe it's me.
     
  44. Pat K.

    Pat K. Member

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    Ok. I practiced a bit and I'm confident in my findings. I get good primary readings from each pack but I can only get a secondary reading from one coil pack.
     

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  45. OrgangrinderA

    OrgangrinderA Member

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    Assuming your bike has been standing and will start briefly if you want?!?...
    1) Check pickups at connection to TCI module as previously described. (Ohms.)
    If they do not reveal any problem then:
    2) Connect your multimeter across the battery. (Volts.) Hopefully you have some leads with croc. clips to facilitate this?...
    Start your engine and smoothly run up to 2,000 - then 3,000 r.p.m.. Voltage SHOULD remain stable between 14.2v. and 14.8v.?
    If this checks out we have hopefully, for now at any rate, dismissed the likelihood of a faulty regulator 'cooking' everything; but if the voltage is 14.9 (or more), switch off and deal with this first!!!...
    Assuming all IS well then:
    3) Run the engine until it cuts out on your fault manifesting. IMMEDIATELY it does, check, (preferably with a headlamp bulb, rather than your multimeter, because this presents sufficient loading to demonstrate that there is no 'voltage drop' under load) the supply to the red/white wires at TCI module and/or coils ('ground' your lamp to clean frame, etc., 'earth' - or the battery -/negative terminal). Any problems here, then we need to check out your electrical system generally!?... However, what you have indicated previously would suggest that all will be well here?... Assuming it is then:
    4) Again check the pickups as previously described. If these reveal no fault, then it is a fairly safe bet that your TCI module IS the problem: send it off to a member who has offered, for checking by substitution!

    Remember, though, that pickups CAN be 'fickle' beasts. While your TCI module is away, it is worth checking the coil packs, etc. - in order to ensure there is no latent HT circuit fault; poised to 'whack' the HT spark discharge back through the TCI!?!!...
    When testing the coil pack HT side, check between the two plug leads: NOT between plug leads and ground!!! (K. Ohms.) These are 'negative spark' systems - so the leads go to either end/termination of the coil HT 'secondary' winding.... Don't forget to 'add in' the resistances of BOTH 'resistive' plug caps to the figure in your specification!!!...
    Also make sure your your meter is set to 'range' correctly - otherwise it may just go 'blank' or read 'zero/infinity' (dependent upon the model...)?!?... IF you ever get to checking out 'mains powered' systems, or the like, correct 'ranging' is VITAL!!! Only today I heard of someone (an engineer on a generator hire company...) who checked for voltage presence with his meter on a DC 'range' setting! The output was 240/415 volts AC - so the meter 'zero' indicated!!!... In consequence he then assumed the set was 'dead' - IT WASN'T!!!... Oops, big time!

    Got to go now: working!... Andy
     
  46. OrgangrinderA

    OrgangrinderA Member

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    Just arrived home: your indicated suspect 'open' circuit on one coil HT may, indeed, be the ultimate source of your problem?...

    If your TCI module should turn out to be knackered, a coil HT fault is most likely to be the instigating cause - for the reasons I previously explained!?!... Good luck! Andy
     
  47. fiveofakind

    fiveofakind Well-Known Member

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    Pat K.

    As suggested earlier in the thread......send your TCI to someone & have them test it on a known good running bike......
     
  48. Polock

    Polock Well-Known Member

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    my offer is still good Pat
     
  49. Pat K.

    Pat K. Member

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    Can someone explain this in layman's terms? I''ve seen this mentioned before. But I was under the impression if the bike had "resistive plug caps" (?) then the bike would also need "resistive"type spark plugs? Which I don't use. I need clarification on this....
     
  50. Pat K.

    Pat K. Member

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    Polock... Your in PA correct? I just might just have to take you up on that offer. At the rate I'm going I might as well send you a whole box of parts!(haha) Coils, tci, regulator, rectifier, etc whatever has a wire hanging out of it I'll rip of the bike and send it all your way!! Test it all and tell me what's junk and what's not... (im only kidding, just frustrated!) i think I mentioned this earlier but I'd rather have to fix blown pistons broken rings and bent rods knowing the cost of parts and labor time is 3X more... I HATE electrica!
     

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