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Looking To Trade Valve Shims

Discussion in 'XJ Technical Chat' started by bunglejyme, Jul 8, 2015.

  1. bunglejyme

    bunglejyme Member

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    Greetings, I am seeking other members who trade valve shims.
    My bike is 1981 Yamaha XJ650 and the shims are 29mm diameter.
    The shims I have to trade are: (1x) 255; (1x) 265; (1x) 275; (2x) 280
    The Shims I need are: (2x) 260; (2x) 270; (1x) 285
     
  2. wink1018

    wink1018 Active Member

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    Hogfiddles runs a shim pool. Message him for details. Or, he may just chime in shortly.
     
  3. EarMachine

    EarMachine Member

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    Try your local dealer as well.
    Shims for me are only 6$ each. Would have probably cost the same for shipping to get the ones I needed lol.
    -EM
     
  4. bunglejyme

    bunglejyme Member

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    Thank you Wink
     
  5. bunglejyme

    bunglejyme Member

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    I try to avoid the dealer in my area as they have tried to gouge me in the past. I'd be willing to bet they'd quote me five times what you paid for yours.
     
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  6. Stumplifter

    Stumplifter Well-Known Member

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    You are wise.
     
  7. hogfiddles

    hogfiddles XJ-Wizard, Host-Central NY Carb Clinic Moderator Premium Member

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    Why are you going to thicker shims, you should be going to THINNER shims......
     
  8. bunglejyme

    bunglejyme Member

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    I am going by the charts and these are the shims that are prescribed based on the clearances I measured.
    Why should I deviate from that?
     
  9. tabaka45

    tabaka45 Well-Known Member

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    So, you are saying that some of your valves were too tight and some were too loose?
     
  10. hogfiddles

    hogfiddles XJ-Wizard, Host-Central NY Carb Clinic Moderator Premium Member

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    Because as the clearances get smaller, the valves are getting closer to the cam. So you need to to put in progressively thinner shims to regain the proper gap.

    You also need to have the correct charts.... There are some out there that give the wrong clearance range. It SHOULD BE:
    Intake: .11mm-.15mm
    Exhaust: 16mm-.20mm

    Tell you what:

    Put your clearances and current shim sizes here and let me see what you've measured and read. We'll double-check it for you.

    Dave Fox
     
  11. XJ550H

    XJ550H Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    my local dealer wanted me to buy 5 packs of the aftermarket shims i wanted, or i could buy 1 oem shim for the same price, then he took 10 days to get a bleeder screw in for me , wtf
     
  12. Nuch

    Nuch Well-Known Member

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    I'm in need of shims as well and willing to trade... Used the zip tie method... No problems...

    Currently my XJ700 has:
    EX. #1 - .15mm(250) - need to go to... (245)?
    EX. #2 - .15mm(250) - need to go to... (245)?
    EX. #3 - .10mm(260) - need to go to... (250)?
    EX. #4 - .13mm(255) - need to go to... (250)?

    INT. #1 - .10mm(270) - need to go to... (265)?
    INT. #2 - .13mm(265) - The only one in spec if I'm not mistaken.
    INT. #3 - .10mm(270) - need to go to... (265)?
    INT. #4 - .10mm(275) - need to go to... (270)?

    Questions:
    1 - How do my numbers/measurements look?
    2 - Is there a shim pool out there and how does it work?
    3 - If buying new, are there any thoughts on OEM vs. aftermarket?
    4 - Still not sure about forum etiquette. Is is appropriate for me to ask questions in a thread that someone else started (for a related issue of course), or for something like this, should I have started a new thread?

    Thanks!
     
  13. hogfiddles

    hogfiddles XJ-Wizard, Host-Central NY Carb Clinic Moderator Premium Member

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    1. Nuch, your numbers are all correct.... Good job figuring it!!

    2.. Shim pool-- send me a private conversation ( click on my name, then click on 'start a conversation') and I'll talk with you on how it works

    3. OEM is more expensive. New anything costs more than a shim pool swap. Doesn't matter if you get new, used, oem, or aftermarket....you're gonna eventually swap the out again when the clearances get out of spec.

    4. Ask any question you want.... We go off on all kinds of tangents----- like BACON, for example. If it gets too far out, someone will say something and rein it in......... Maybe.

    Hey, anyone try the bacon-flavored ice cream yet? How about bacon rum?

    Dave F
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2015
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  14. EarMachine

    EarMachine Member

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    Didn't even know the ice cream existed but now I WANT to try it!
    -EM
     
  15. bunglejyme

    bunglejyme Member

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    Yes
    That is correct. I have no idea what sort of maintenace was done regarding the valves as I am like the the third or fourth owner, according to the guy I bought it from.
    This is the first I am attending to the valve clearances so I want to get it right and keep it right.
    There has always been a valve tap since I've owned it.
     
  16. bunglejyme

    bunglejyme Member

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    I am using charts in a Haynes Repair Manual for Yamaha XJ650 and 750.
    There is a chart for the UK models then there are two charts (one for intake and one for exhaust) for all others.

    I will post the measured clearanced tonight when I get home.
    Thank you in advance.
     
  17. bunglejyme

    bunglejyme Member

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    The local Yamaha dealer in my area has gotten too big to bother helping small spender like me. Even when the were a tiny place I went in to buy a set of brishes for my starter motor and they tol dme they coul dorder them and quoted me $17 per brush.
    I politely said I gte back to you then went on line and found a company named Stockers Starters and bought an OEM blister pack of the entire shim plate -w- shims assy for $9 plus I bought an entire rebuild kit for $40.
    Another time I wen tto this deal and needed a headlight. I stood at the parts counter as plain as day and some kid behind that counter was ignoring me like I was invisible. I finally spoke up and asked if I could get some help and he
    said "oh, sorry". Of course they would have to order it and they wanted a fortune. Well I went elsewhere. I refuse to deal with people who have attitudes and gouge customers.
     
  18. bunglejyme

    bunglejyme Member

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    I like your questions. I was trying to come up with my same list of pertinent questions. Thank you for posting.
    I'm going to share my measured clearances after I get home tonight.
     
  19. bunglejyme

    bunglejyme Member

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    Everything is better with bacon; even checking shims.
     
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  20. hogfiddles

    hogfiddles XJ-Wizard, Host-Central NY Carb Clinic Moderator Premium Member

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    Bungle, your experiences are the same all over....

    That's part of why WE are here. This is the place to be, for help, friendship, parts, info, ideas....... Bust on each other a bit.......and get things done RIGHT.

    That's also why some of us have so many bikes---- some to ride, some for parts for self, and lots of parts to keep everyone else's rides going.
     
  21. bunglejyme

    bunglejyme Member

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    I have a background in Tool And Die Makeing; both in the shop and as a designer.
    I wish I still had access to the machine shop otherwise I might consider finding out what the metalurgy of the OEM shims is.
    Anyone know whether the shims are through-hardened or just case-hardened?
    I guess the real way to find out would be to take a throwaway shim and grind it down to half the thickness then check the hardness on a Rockwell machine
    to determine whether the core is as hard as the surface.
    Dave, the following is a list of the valve clearances that I measured on my 1981 XJ650, along with the respective shim number.

    Cylinder No.1 Intake: .20mm, (Shim Y280)
    Cylinder No.2 Intake: .15mm, (Shim Y275)
    Cylinder No.3 Intake: .10mm, (Shim Y275)
    Cylinder No.4 Intake: .05mm, (Shim Y280)

    Cylinder No.1 Exhaust: .23mm, (Shim Y260)
    Cylinder No.2 Exhaust: .15mm, (Shim Y265)
    Cylinder No.3 Exhaust: .13mm, (Shim Y265)
    Cylinder No.4 Exhaust: .23mm, (Shim Y255)
     
  22. XJ550H

    XJ550H Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    only the surface is hardened on the shims
     
  23. Toomanybikes

    Toomanybikes Well-Known Member

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    Back to the bacon for a moment has anyone tried bacon flavour hickory stix
    Yummy like they were fried in bacon fat!
     
  24. Toomanybikes

    Toomanybikes Well-Known Member

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    And one other thing. They have changed the bottle for SoCo( southern comfort)
    After seems like 60 years they changed it ... How dare they . New one on left image.jpg
     
  25. MattiThundrrr

    MattiThundrrr Not a guru

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    Can't remember who, but somebody here did lab analysis on Yamaha shims. Searching...
    Nope. Can't find it. Closest i got was this:
    http://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threads/valve-shim-shave.30945/#post-267966
    PS SoCo hasn't ever looked like that in Canada when I've been drinking it, so like 20 years? Does it still taste the same? If they mess with the flavor, that's blasphemy!
     
  26. bunglejyme

    bunglejyme Member

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    Thought I would add this. Prior to the last check, I kept getting different measurements under certain cams. It made no sense at all. So I checked to make sure all the bolts that hold the cam shaft bearing blocks were tight. All bolts were tight. Then it dawned on me that there might be a "high spot" on the base circle of these cams. So on the final check, I slid the feeler gauge back and forth under base circles of these cams as I slowly rotated the engine and found out that there was indeed a high spot along that part of he cam. I'd slip the feeler in there and it would go in snug and smooth at first but then as I'd bar the engine over, the cam would begin to pinch the gauge and I'd have to rotate through until it let go again. Next time around I'd switch to a smaller gauge. On all the other cams where the number were consistent there was no high spot along their base circles. The clearance was the same around the 180 degrees (that's an approximation) of their base circles.
     
  27. Toomanybikes

    Toomanybikes Well-Known Member

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    image.jpg image.jpg
    So you get the old bottle on the right? That's the bottle we have had in bc for a long time and daughter in law brings me SoCo 100 every so often. (Second pic)Have been drinking it since 1974when a woman on the beach in Osoyoos offered me a SoCo and Orange.She was 30 I was 18 :) had an xs650(xs2)ape hangers and noisy pipes.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2015
  28. Toomanybikes

    Toomanybikes Well-Known Member

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    image.jpg They have changed the label but never the bottle til now. Here's the way back label
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2015
  29. bunglejyme

    bunglejyme Member

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    I'll bet they changed that neck design after the bottle slipped out of someone's hand, the bootle fell and broke on the ground, and a glass shard cut their big toe.
    Then a trial lawyer was hired and sued the Heron Co and won. On a more serious note: the neck is now more ergonomic for those who prefer to take slugs right out of the bottle.
     
  30. hogfiddles

    hogfiddles XJ-Wizard, Host-Central NY Carb Clinic Moderator Premium Member

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    Those numbers are unusual. Most of the time, the clearances are too tight. You two that are tight, and one that's in spec..... The rest are waaay loose, so those do indeed need thicker shims. That makes me wonder two things:

    1. Did some PO do a shim job using the wrong charts?

    2. How does your bike currently run? With big clearances, you're not breathing right .... Valves aren't opening soon enough, not staying open long enough......

    Here's your needs:

    Intake:
    1 - 280 becomes 285
    2 - 275 is in spec
    3 - 275 becomes 270
    4 - 280 becomes 270

    Exhaust:
    1 - 260 becomes 265
    2 - 265 becomes 260
    3 - 260 becomes 260
    4 - 255 becomes 260

    Swap exhaust 1 w/ exhaust 2.
    Just need: 260(2), 270(2), 280(1)

    I believe that was your first post, too. So yup, you figured correctly.:)

    I don't have any 260's at the moment. It you decide to buy new shims, please consider donating your used ones to the shim pool. If you wish, I can also get the correct shims for you to send along with 'pool' shims..... Start a 'conversation' with me.

    Dave Fox
     
  31. hogfiddles

    hogfiddles XJ-Wizard, Host-Central NY Carb Clinic Moderator Premium Member

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    They sh
    They should make it in the shape in the shape of a jug with a ring to hook your finger through.....
     
  32. MattiThundrrr

    MattiThundrrr Not a guru

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    The way back label is the one we get in my area. That "100" seems pretty interesting too. I haven't seen that one before. Always thought it could use some extra "kick".
    So, she had a custom bike, and plied younger gentlemen with hard liquor? My kinda lady. When I was 18, I was wasting my time with teenagers!
     
  33. hogfiddles

    hogfiddles XJ-Wizard, Host-Central NY Carb Clinic Moderator Premium Member

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    If I knew then what I know now.........
    But---at least I know now what I know now..... And I still know what I knew then.
     
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  34. Luis

    Luis Member

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    +1hogfiddles....going down that alley but some of yall may be to young.... night moves....seger
     
  35. rocs82650

    rocs82650 Well-Known Member

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    A.k.a takin' it to the brain.

    Gary H.
     
  36. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

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  37. bunglejyme

    bunglejyme Member

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    Dave, thank you for double-checking my findings. This is the first time I am doing anything with the valves. I bought the bike off my brother-in-law about eight years ago and I've done a lot of maintenance to it since, except for the valves. To my knowledge, he did very little maintenance to the bike as it was sitting unused in his garage for three years before I brought it home in the bed of my truck. He mentioned that there were at least two previous owners. Perhaps one of the previous owners farted around with the shims and got things messed up. The bike definitely runs now and, believe it or not, runs fairly well considering the valve clearances. I've put a lot of attention into the carburetors and invested in a colortune and carb stick but I always found that I could never get the carbs to stay in sync. I'd get them real close then they'd begin drifting out. I suspect the improper valve clearances are a major influence here. This is my first and only bike so I had to start from scratch when I bought it. Fortunately, I have a lot of experience working on cars so the learning curve was rather short for me.
    There is a small two-man shop in town that specializes in older Japanese bikes. I'm going to see if they can help me out with the shims first. Then I'll go from there. Yes, I would gladly donate my used shims to the shim pool as soon as I get things straightened out. I love this bike and want to keep improving it as best I can.
     
  38. bunglejyme

    bunglejyme Member

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    When I was in my 20's I adored older chicks (those in their 30's and 40's). Now those are younger chicks to me.
     
  39. MattiThundrrr

    MattiThundrrr Not a guru

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    Thanks, Kmoe. That was the thread I was searching for.
    I think you're bang on there. The valve adjustment will get this thing running like a song!!
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2015
  40. bunglejyme

    bunglejyme Member

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    Thank you MattiThundrrr.
     
  41. EarMachine

    EarMachine Member

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    Bunglejyme, did you end up getting the shims you need?
    -EM
     
  42. Nuch

    Nuch Well-Known Member

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    Figured I'd raise this thread from the past, rather than create a new one as my shim issues/questions started here... And who needs another shim thread anyway?

    As posted already, My initial findings were:

    EX. #1 - .15mm(250) - need to go to... (245)?
    EX. #2 - .15mm(250) - need to go to... (245)?
    EX. #3 - .10mm(260) - need to go to... (250)?
    EX. #4 - .13mm(255) - need to go to... (250)?

    INT. #1 - .10mm(270) - need to go to... (265)?
    INT. #2 - .13mm(265) - The only one in spec if I'm not mistaken.
    INT. #3 - .10mm(270) - need to go to... (265)?
    INT. #4 - .10mm(275) - need to go to... (270)?

    Hogfiddles, confirmed my numbers and shift in shims were right on. After several great conversations with him, several frustrating encounters with my local post office and an actual swap from his shim pool (Thanks again Dave, I'll be sending my original shims shortly), My new numbers look like this:

    EX. #1 - .20mm(245)
    EX. #2 - .18mm(245)
    EX. #3 - Somewhere between .15mm and .18mm?(255)
    EX. #4 - .18mm(250)

    INT. #1 - .13mm(265)
    INT. #2 - .13mm(265) - This one in was already in spec
    INT. #3 - .15mm(265)
    INT. #4 - .15mm(270)

    Look at EX #3... Here is my question.
    It was confirmed by my initial findings, that I needed to go from (260) to (250) which is two jumps on the chart (no problem if indeed that was what was needed). When I swapped the shims as suggested, the EX #3 clearance was WAAAY to big. I was able to slip a .25mm feeler gauge in there with no problems.

    I then decided to go only one step and put a (255) in there. This closed the gap, but now I can't get a true reading because .15mm on the gauge goes in real easy... like NO resistance, but the next feeler up in the gauge set is .18mm and it will not go in.

    Am I "close enough" on EX. #3?
    Am I obsessing?
    Should we just go back to talking about booze and bacon ice cream?

    My neighbor came across the street and had to pull the feeler gauge from my hand late last night after the 3rd frustrating swap in swap out of EX. #3. He told me I was either going to hurt myself, go insane or break something... good advice... I closed the garage door and went to bed.

    Also, Seems weird that there are jumps in numbers with the gauge itself. There are 2 sets of numbers on each blade. For the numbers designated with the mm, sometimes it is three jumps (between .10 and .13 for instance) and other times it is only two (between .13 and .15). Yet, the second number on each blade is exactly sequental. It is new... (Thanks to Chacal - XJ Forever) This is what My set has:

    0.10mm - 0.004
    0.13mm - 0.005
    0.15mm - 0.006
    0.18mm - 0.007
    0.20mm - 0.008
    0.23mm - 0.009

    Thoughts on this as well?

    Thanks
     
  43. hogfiddles

    hogfiddles XJ-Wizard, Host-Central NY Carb Clinic Moderator Premium Member

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    I think you're juuuust barely in spec on the tight end at this point. You'll be out of spec in no time flat. Personally, I'd opt to go with the next size down, be juuuuust a hair out of spec on the fat side. Your valve has already receded into the head so I wouldn't expect any interference at this point either. You actually run the risk of intereference when the clearances are too tight, not too loose. It is safer to run on the loose side. You'll be back into the in spec zone shortly, too.
     
  44. Nuch

    Nuch Well-Known Member

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    Good advice. I'm glad I didn't tighten down the cover yet. I'm leaning towards putting the (250) back in. Can't get in the garage today though... rats.
     
  45. EarMachine

    EarMachine Member

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    There are rats in your garage? That's unfortunate
     
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  46. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

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    Sounds more like a R.O.U.S. problem to me, if they are preventing him from getting to his garage.
     
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  47. Stumplifter

    Stumplifter Well-Known Member

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    Rodents of unusual size require a feline of a large size, or just a feisty rat terrier.
     
  48. Nuch

    Nuch Well-Known Member

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    Now that's funny. Snuck back in (kicking away rats apparently) and put the (250) back in place... I'm on the loose side of "out of spec" but hoping that the many miles I put on it will see it tighten up in short order...
     

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