Start button just clicks

So -- when I press the start button all I get is a click... battery is great and and the bike starts right up and runs great from a bump start - don't even need to get it moving that much, just a walking pace really.

I'm thinking bad solenoids? Thoughts appreciated.

 

short the two solenoid terminals with a hefty screwdriver, --watch out for sparks, and make sure the bike is in neutral beforehand.
does the engine then turn over?
if it does'nt then its probably a dead battery, or dirty battery connections or faulty starter .
if it does then its the solenoid
stu

 

Check your starter solenoid first. Not sure if the 650 (your bike I presume given the tag) has a starter cut out but if you can bump start it I guess it's working fine. And you say the battery is fine too. Often if you give them a tap they may start working again. If you put your hand on it when you hit the starter motor you should feel it click. If it doesn't replace it. They are cheap as on eBay so buy one (or several like I did) and eliminate that before you do anything else. If your good with a multi meter you should be able to determine if it is the solenoid pretty quickly without having to short the connections on the solenoid and the possible problems that can cause. Did it just happen or were having issues starting previously (like press button several times before action, noises from the starter, weak starter motor turn over?).

 

If you have been using the run/off switch on your right handle bar controls instead
of your key switch there may be carbon build up on the brass contacts inside the right
hand control body that would normally be activated by the starter button. If you can
turn the key on and the bike starts by crossing the two poles of the solenoid with a
screw driver there is nothing wrong with either the solenoid or the starter motor. take
the right hand control body apart and clean all the brass contacts. Use a scotch bright
or some other non metalic abrasive, because steel wool or emory filings will get into the works and
short stuff out. clean it, blow it out good, put it back together and try the button again
that might take care of it.

 

I had a similar issue with one of my XJ900's and the problem was the negative lead to the starter motor. The seal and bolt coming off the starter were loose, making intermittent contact. You may want to check your connections, as it worked for me.

 

My first thought is battery, regardless of whether its new or not, or whether you THINK it's good or not.

Put a volt meter on the battery and see what the standing voltage is, then see what the voltage drops to when you try to start it......

 

I followed the steps here : http://xj650.blogspot.com/2009/03/how-to-test-your-starter-circuit.html

Got to step 7 and I'm not seeing any voltage coming from the blue wire ( although it's blue not sky-blue) this points to the neutral switch right but the nuetral light works fine on the display - wouldn't this also be a problem if the neutral switch was bad --- FYI I actually thought this switch was bypassed because I was able to start the bike in gear before even with the clutch out ( yeah I know the risks - my choice).

 

step 7 is asking for a continuity test not a voltage test
did you bypass the clutch safety switch? this would allow you to start bike in gear with clutch out
7. Hook your continuity tester between the battery's ground terminal and the Sky Blue wire coming from the bike's wiring harness for the starter circuit cut-off relay (relay pigtail unplugged). It should read an open state while the transmission is in gear. When you shift into neutral, the tester should then read a closed state. If there's no change, inspect, clean, or replace the neutral switch and its ground and retest. If it checks out, proceed to the next step.

 

I'm not sure if XJs are similar,but, on my Valkyrie the power for the headlight goes through the starter button. If the kill switch is used with the
key on, a small arc happens which can deposit enough carbon on the button contact over time to prevent starting. Of course, check the battery first,
but, guck happens inside the right and left control housings. It's easy to check after the battery. Also the salt air on the coast used to foul up
my motorcycle controls as a kid growing up near Boston.

 

Damn it - you're right - I do have continuity here so I'll move on.

I don't think it's the control switch cos the starter-relay clicks in when i press the button just the same as it does it I connect it direct to the battery.

 

Seems like it might be a bad starter-relay - how do I bypass this to test it.

 

if the relay/solenoid is clicking when you press the start button, then bridge the large terminals with a screwdriver, as I stated in the first reply .
if the engine then spins, problem will lie with the solenoid---simples,
stu

 

from
The Ultimate Relay, Switch, Sensor, and Diodes Guide

BY-PASSING SWITCHES AND RELAYS:
Starting/Ignition Cut-Off/Neutral Safety relay:
- unplug the safety relay which disables the whole bloody mess but DO NOT leave it that way, fix it right!

as far as testing

Starting/Ignition Cut-Off/Neutral Safety relay:
- due to variations in design and the need for visual reference, you should check your service manual for the proper testing procedures. There are at least three checks that are necessary to perform: a relay coil resistance check, and a relay coil function (powered vs. unpowered) check, and a diode function test.
from haynes manual

 

if you disconnect the wire from the solinoid that goes to the starter you can hook your meter to that bolt and test for voltage when you press the starter button

 

it isn't the same. The headlight runs on a separate circuit that is independent from the starter switch.

 

Guys you can read this to see what I've done http://xj650.blogspot.com/2009/03/how-to-test-your-starter-circuit.html

I have tried to short across the solenoids and that didn't work

I get voltage on the red wire going into the relay and open-continuity on the wires coming from the neutral switch. What's odd is that I don't have two red/white wires coming to this relay - comparing my connection block to the wiring diagram one of the wires that supposed to be red/white is actually black -- the wire that supposed to be light-blue is dark blue and the yellow wire looks white to me. So maybe someone's f***ed with this before.

I tried to bypass this by doing what it says in the manual -- and a fuse blew out. So this got me thinking.

I have to come clean that my digital MM broke so I've been using an analogue one -- I was seeing the voltage shoot right past 10 on that scale so I assume it was at least 12. Just tested the battery again with the MM on the 0-50 scale and I'm seeing like 30v --- how can this be?

 

your voltage regulator may have failed

the alternator is ac and must go through the diodes in the VR to convert to dc.
sine wave for ac is 15 plus to 15 minus total 30 volt potential swing.

 

ok - thanks - so what do I do? Is it safe to ride? Where's the VR and is it easy to replace or test?

 

there should be 4 wires to the relay .
blue wire goes to the neutral switch, then to ground and a black yellow wire to the clutch switch then to side stand relay to the tci
then two red/white/yellow wires . one goes to the starter switch the other goes to the soleinoid the blue wire from the solenoid switch goes to the push button for the starter when pushed connects to ground.
if you connect the 2 red wires together you should be able to use the starter button.

you say you have different colors so lets find the correct ones
continuity check from red wire on solinoid to wires on connector untill you find this wire.
pull the ignition fuse clip mm lead to output side of fuse push in starter button test for continuity to 3 remaining leads
the one with continuity is the other "red" wire .
if you connect these 2 wires it will bypass (with relay removed) the relay circuit.
this will make the starter button activate the solenoid.

 

did you zero out the analog meter? its that screw at the bottom of the needle or a thumb wheel

its the finned thing under the side cover. above the relay you working on
if it is bad it just unplugs and is replaced you will need a dmm to test it.
do you have a manual? it tells how

haynes free download covers 650 and 750
http://www.manualslib.com/manual/837861/Yamaha-Xj750.html

we are talking about an xj650h correct?

 

I think I figured out when 2 are the red wires just from the wiring diagram -- I connected those together and that's what blew a fuse. Does this run through the fuse box from relay?

Yes I have the haynes manual.

 

blew the fuse from connecting them or pressing the starter button?
fuse runs to the starter switch then to the relay, from relay to solenoid.
the other side of the solenoid coil is blue and runs to the kill switch in run position to ground.
blue wire also goes to diode block

so if the fuse blows on connecting the wires together i would suspect the the diode block may have failed.
if fuse blows when you press starter button i would suspect solenoid coil is shorted

 

When I press the start button - but I think only with the relay bypassed

 

Do you have the correct relay and location. Per the print, you should have R/W, R/W, Sb, and B/Y. Per Lens ultimate relay guide your relay is located under the gas tank, and not under the regulator as noted on the starter troubleshooting guide.

"on all XJ650 Maxim/Midnight Maxim/RJ Seca models: under the gas tank, in-between the frame tubes, on a welded bracket just behind the flasher self-canceller relay."

Do a sanity check on your meter, test a known good source such as your car battery or other know voltage source to eliminate test equipment or operator error.

So either your battery is toast and dropping out or the starter / wiring is bad - exactly as stu noted on the first reply.

 

I thought it was under the tank for UK model and under the side cover for USA? that's what the manual says and this
http://xj650.blogspot.com/2009/03/how-to-test-your-starter-circuit.html

I tested the meter it's good.

when shorting across the solenoids doesn't this just pass voltage down to the relay?

 

yes shorting across the bolts sends voltage to the starter

 

http://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threads/the-ultimate-relay-switch-sensor-and-diodes-guide.27543/

Note the reference to the service manual is wrong.

XJ650 Maxim and Midnight Maxim models:

Flasher: near the steering headpipe, on right side frame rail, under the right side ignition coil.
Flasher canceller: under the rear of gas tank, behind ignition coils
Starter motor solenoid/relay: on right hand side, attached to and behind the battery box.
Diode block: inside the headlight housing.
Starter/Ignition cut-off relay (no color): behind the turn signal self-canceller. (note: the drawing and the description in the service manual is wrong).
1980-81 Sidestand (kickstand) relay (blue): did not use.
1982-84 Sidestand (kickstand) relay (blue): frame bracket outbound of LH frame tube, just behind the left ignition coil.
Headlight relay (yellow): behind the left frame side cover, on the plastic regulator-rectifier mounting plate. (note: the drawing and the description in the service manual is wrong).
Neutral switch: in a hole in the bottom of the crankcase, just "outside" of the oil pan, on the bottom of the engine, up inside a recessed "well".

Not to a relay, shorting across the two large nuts on the solenoid applies high current battery voltage directly to the starter bypassing all safety circuits. Therefore, if the motor does not turn over when doing this the battery, starter, or wiring is defective. No sparks when shorting (and battery voltage at the cables stays above 10V or so), then there is an open in the wiring or the starter, most likely the starter brushes to commutator. Brush to commutator issues can sometimes be momentarily corrected by gently tapping on the starter housing with a plastic hammer.

So what about the 30 volts mentioned earlier, is that still happening? Bike is not running when measuring?

 

you have stated the bike starts with the bump start.did you bypass the clutch safety switch if not i would do that at this time. I think you have implied it is not working correctly.
varify the relay you are working on. sounds like it may be the wrong one.

solenoid does click when you press the button correct?
if so disconnect the wire that goes to the starter hook your meter (volt test) to that bolt and see if you get voltage to that bolt when you press the starter button if not it is the output side of the soleinoid.
check continuity from the wire you disconnected to the starter bolt it is hooked to.
see if you have voltage to the small wires on the solenoid 1 side should be 12 volts the blue wire should be less than the measured voltage. if you have voltage to both wires solenoid may be good at that part of it.
you could also use a jumper wire from ground and touch it to the blue wire (lower voltage side) of the solenoid that should complete ground . if that makes your starter turn I would look at the relay.

also as suggested you may want to test your battery for voltage drop when you try to start it.
the solenoid is just a big relay coil and contacts.

 

So after I now know the correct relay which was very confusing -- I can confirm that is bypassed buy connecting the two red/white wires together.. The solenoid clicks when I push start -- when I disconnect the two red/white wires it doesn't so I know that is good. Now i have voltage to the other side of the solenoid (other side to battery) when I press the start button. So the problem is between that side of the solenoid and the starter... is there anything between those things?

 

when you press the starter button if you have no voltage at the output of solenoid connection to starter, where the starter cable connects, it is your solenoid and needs to be replaced.

from solenoid to starter is just the cable check and clean connections, and for voltage at starter connection. if you have voltage there its time to look at the starter.

starter rebuild instructions are in the diy forum

 

you also want to comfirm running voltage of the charging system to address possible 30 volt measurement you spoke of.
the analog meter you are using may swing high then settle at the actual voltage.

 

Starter motor is broken, check the brushes

 

Looks like i've found the problem --





So I guess I have 2 questions:

1) What can I do - do I need to replace the whole thing or can I find parts to fix it.
2) Why did the wiring burn out - could it be that I am getting high voltage from the battery that overloaded the starter burning out the wring?

I haven't been able to start it so I can't tell y'all the running voltage on the battery. It should start from a bump right with the starter motor removed?

 

It should start from a bump, but you're gonna blow oil everywhere.....

 

So my other big question is --- is it safe to ride? Can I just tape off the "hole" where the starter motor connects into - is that engine oil that lubes those parts?

I can put the motor back on if this is required for now while figure out what to do with it.

Anyone got any parts they don't need?

 

Pic #1 - was the square notched part of the plate installed on the square peg of the case?

Gary H.

 

I believe so - why? I was working... then clearly something happened that fried the wring

 

In another thread a PO had incorrectly installed new brushes and the plate must be correctly installed.

Gary H.

 

So do you guys think this would work to fix it....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Starter-KIT...ash=item415f1fadc9:g:PkEAAMXQstJTmIxM&vxp=mtr

 

good price if its just the brush setup that has failed it should do the job fine.
just when your done bump start it first to check your voltage.

 

So my analogue MM is in the trash -- I went and bought a new digital MM and it reads 12.32v across the battery and good all the way to the starter motor.

 

What does it drop to when you push the button.... But that might be a moot point if you're going to have the starter hooked up

 

yeah it looks like the connection between one of the brushes and the top case link to the starter wire burnt out but then thinking about it could just be how a starter motor looks so perhaps it just broke. In any case there was a lot of black soot in there which I just won't expect to be normal.

I don't have any experience on taking these apart so any advice appreciated. Upon inspecting the whole think it looks like -- well worn I guess so I figured rather than try to MacGiver the connections back together it would be best to just replace them especially for $15. Starting the bike is kinda essential.

I'll check the voltage drop later on but I'm sure it's ok. Just thinking this through logically though I don't think it will drop if the starters not working right because there's nothing drawing voltage?

 

did you read the tutorial in the diy forum? one photo shows a lot of crap

http://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threads/replacing-your-starter-motor-brushes-w-pics.45727/

 

That's exactly what I needed - thanks!

 

don't thank me I'm only the messenger.
Tskaz is the one you thank

 

I thank you cos your dog still scares the shit out of me --- --- Tskaz has been thanked too.

 

So I rebuilt the starter motor and it looks great - went to start it and boom first time no problem... second time again no issue. Third time and the solenoid starting doing this weird fast clicking noise not like normal - faster and quieter. Now it won't start again. Question - when checking for voltage on the starter side of the solenoid between negative of battery what should I expect to see it be when I press start button - I appear to getting about 1.30v -- battery is 12.23v and drops to around 1.3 when I hit start.

 

On the starter side of teh solenoid you should see 12 + volts.
Sounds to me like you have a dying battery. 12.23V at rest is low.

 

IDK - I think that was kinda low cos I'd been messing around with trying to start it for a while. The battery is almost brand new AGM so I doubt it's a problem.

Funny thing is that after posting that I left it for about 10 mins - went back in the garage pressed the start button and there was a little puff of smoke from the solenoid and then it started right up.... I'm going to replace that solenoid and check for any loose wires/shorts around there.