700 airhead no longer starting...ignition timing?

Alright, for those of you who do not know, it is winter. I made it about half way through December until I had to garage my bike (due to below freezing temps, ice, and snow, etc). I made sure that I started the bike up at least once a week since "winterizing" it (to keep battery charged and gas flowing through the carbs). The plan was working GREAT until one day the bike just wouldn't go.

Here are things I checked:

1) Spark. brilliant, bright blue spark on all 4 cylinders. Even made the mistake of touching my index finger on one of the plugs when testing and had a little shock.

2) Compression. Didn't really need to test, as compression doesn't just go poof without the motor running. You have to be running the bike in order to blow a ring. For the sake of the argument, I checked compression anyways. Average was 130 PSI. Even if that's not ideal for the 700 airhead motor, it should still be plenty for it to run (as evident from the 130 PSI that I was riding the bike on this entire last year).

3) Fuel. BRAND NEW gas, the tank was about half full when I garaged the bike, so I filled her up full, put some fuel system cleaner and gas stabilizer in it.

4) Fuel. I even pulled the carburetors off the bike. All 4 carbs still receiving plenty of fuel, tore down, and all 4 carbs have clean jets.

5) Fuel. Fuel is flowing throw the carburetors to the cylinder. I flooded the engine (based on smell and fuel drenched spark plugs).

6) STARTING FLUID. Yup, I even tried some starting fluid, hoping that it would give the bike that extra "kick" that will hopefully get it to pop. Only popped once. I tried both engine unmanipulated and with carbs at WOT.

7) STARTING FLUID. When I pulled the carburetor brick off the bike to check/clean if necessary, I got curious and sprayed starting fluid directly into the cylinders (through the carb boots). Didn't even pop doing that (engine still had spark, remember).

8) Removing the side stand switch and neutral safety switch relay. This permanently grounds out the switches and makes it so I can start the bike with kickstand deployed, in gear, without clutch, etc (NOTE: this was tested during the summer with the bike on the center stand, so I know removing the relay bypasses the safety switches).

I got it to pop twice. And that was it.

SPECIAL NOTE: After the week that the bike did not start, I pulled the battery and throw it on my charger/tender to rule out a "half dead battery" as the issue. A freshly charged battery did not do anything.

I only have two ideas at this point -

1) ignition timing. Bike is firing cylinders 2 and 3 when it should be firing 1 and 4?

2) Intake valves no longer opening? I highly doubt this happened with the bike sitting in storage.


Any other ideas? Suggestions? Comments? I'm seriously just about had it with this bike and it's pessimistic attitude and on the borderline of trying to sell it.

 

Ignition timing isn't going to spontaneously switch 180 degrees... you would have had to rewire the TCI or pickups to swap one channel to the other. Did anything like that happen?

FWIW, the coil drive plug with the Orange wire is for 1/4, and the one with the Grey wire is for 2/3.

If the ignition system has not been disassemebled to some extent, then I would doubt that timing is the problem. You could try shutting off fuel (remove the tank), and put some propane into the air box to see if runs for a few seconds off of that... that would help verify whether it's a fuel problem.... which it probably is.

 

Nope, like I said, only foolery of wires that I am aware has been with the headlight wiring (I wonder if my brother could be f***ing with / trolling me by doing something like that........) I don't exactly have access to propane in a sense that I can just let the gas out of (I only have access to the $5 bottles from WalMart that are meant for propane camping stoves and I don't feel like spending $60 on a propane torch assembly right now).

 

A propane torch is more like $15.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzomatic-UL100-Basic-Propane-Torch-Kit-334458/203665003

 

did someone swap your coil primary connections?

Are aware that the Yamaha has a wasted spark ignition. it fires in both cylinders the coil pak is connected to every time

 

I had a similar issue and found that jumping it with a good car battery got it started. I got a new battery and haven't had another problem. Even though you charged the battery I would at least try jumping it just to rule out a weak battery.

 

+1
That is the most likely source of a sudden lack of spark, particularly since starting up a bike periodically during storage is NOT an effective method for maintaining a battery (or for keeping the engine in good condition).

 

Between this forum and reddit, I have found that 6 people told me to jump it to another battery, saying that it could be "dirty power". I'll go ahead and try it tomorrow. :fingerscrossed:

 

Running a bike for short periods of time is a great way to foul spark plugs. You did not mention what they look like. Carbon builds around the insulator can short them out.

 

Bike is too cold, and or battery is too cold

 

If you count with 20 minutes running of varying RPM (once the engine warms up) a "short amount of time". When I was checking for spark (not flooded at the time), the plugs had normal wear showing (slight browning at electrode). No excess carbon at all.

 

I do. You aren't really charging the battery.

 

Still doesn't effect the fact that I pulled the battery out and threw it on my charger to RULE out a bad charge? If it really is my battery, I'm gonna be pissed because it's not even a year old and cost me $98.

 

Wow, you got screwed on your battery, I got mine from a Yamaha dealership, genuine Yuasa for somewhere in the neighborhood of $35.
Buy yeah when you run it off and on during the winter you are really just maintaining your battery, not charging it by using the bikes "charging" circuit. Taking it off the bike and putting it on a charger is the right thing to do. Or use a battery tender.

 

It wouldn't be the first time a supposedly good battery ends up being bad. I'vee seen stories like that several times in the last six months on this forum. If it's actually bad, it won't perform properly even if recently put on a charger.

 

I've never had a bike start without carbs on it, despite the use of ether/starting fluid or a dropper of gas down the plug hole. I have never understood why people suggest it. On a multi-cylinder bike you need to spray it into the airbox with the throttle wide open so that a "fog" enters into the intake tract. I think spraying it directly into the combustion chamber just wets the plug and smothers the spark. Same with saying that the fuel system is working because "the plugs are wet". Great, you are pouring gas into the engine instead of a fuel/air mixture. Again, you are smothering the plugs and killing the spark (which isn't particularly strong on these bikes).
Simple process of elimination
A. If you have spark, odds are your ignition system is working properly.
B. If the engine is cranking smoothly and strongly (enough to shake the bike at rest) odds are you have enough juice in the battery.
C. If you have compression in the 130psi+ range across all four cylinders, odds are you have enough compression
If you can answer YES to A, B & C, then the problem is in your carbs (and/or valves considering how sensitive these bikes are to valve adjustment).

 

True, a battery could hold a "surface" charge which will dissipate once a load is placed on it. So at rest it will show 12.6v on a tester, but hit the starter and watch that drop to 8 - 9 volts. So far the OP has not really indicated a weak battery condition.

 

My battery was a little over a year old but apparently developed a bad cell. Fired right up when jumped to an auto battery. A new agm battery from BatteryStuff.com solved the problem. Now I keep all my bikes hooked up to a battery tender. It's just part putting it in the garage.

 

I just got this one
http://www.ebay.com/itm/231632960576?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

$61.80 free shipping ,had a $50 ebay coupon for selling 2 exhaust nuts for $8.
61.80-50-8-=$3.80 end cost
of course I had to pay ebay and paypal for the use of their sale services

 

I just took a battery out of a recent purchased bike it was almost empty filled it with distilled water and charged then discharged it 4 times and now the battery is like new.

 

I've lost track of how many times I've bought a new battery to find it is a bad battery. I also have lost count of how many times we go through this kind of scenario here, some one says, " your battery is bad", all the arguments ensue, a gazillion other things are tried, only to find at the end that, " huh, my battery is no good".

(As well the, " guess it was too cold ....." discussions)

We shall see......

 

Funny how you say that, guess what it was??? MY BATTERY...well the battery and fouled plugs. When I first tried jumping it, it would fire and pop and just sputter, but wouldn't start. So I pulled the plugs and took a brass wire wheel attached to my drill and spun those suckers clean and it started up after about 3 seconds of turning over. I let those pipes sing for the high heavens (not literally, but I did run it for around a half hour just to please my ears over and over again).

 

I am concerned, however, that I may need to rebuild the motor this summer. I tested the compression and it was at 90 PSI across all four cylinders. This was a cold test, and I know that you are supposed to compression with the engine hot, but I don't think the compression is going to increase 30-40+ PSI simply by warming up; hell, my Kawasaki actually lost compression by warming it up to test the compression (125 cold vs 120 hot).

 

Does it use oil? If it doesn't use oil, and you aren't hearing any piston slap, then I'd just keep running it as-is.
Redo the compression test hot to see what it comes up to. Don't forget to unplug the TCI before performing the test.

 

TCI is the little aluminum box about 2x2 inches with cooling fins under the left side panelthat kind looks like a mini air cooled cylider head? Didn't know that I was supposed to unplug that....oops.

 

No, that is the regulator/rectifier. Your TCI is the black box near it

 

I wouldn't believe a cold dry test like that.

I'd wait til the temp comes up, put a bit of oil in the cyls, make sure to have a reliable gauge, warm it up and THEN see what you have.

 

Sounds like a plan. Was 120-130 across all four this summer.

 

.

Gary H.

 

Ah crap, went for a ride today, forgot to test compression when hot....POOH!

 

Well then it appears that the compression is at least good enough to go riding----

 

It's still a little lacking below 3k RPM. Above it the bike is flawless, just the really low end is non-existent. The throttle response is a little lacking down below 3k as well. Did a little check and seems I've already blown an intake gasket on cylinder 3 or 4. If I have to remove the carburetors one more time after this gasket fix, I swear to the god I don't even believe in that I'll swap to pods and I am going to LOVE IT! (the air box pisses me off on this bike in case you cannot tell....) It can't bog any worse than the first 7 months I was riding this bike with cracked carb boots and I was still having a blast on it!