Clicking but wont turn over

Taking my 85 XJ700 out for the first time this year. Did a lot of work making sure to properly get it ready to start, including a very thorough cleaning. Cleaned the carbs and bench synced them.

Changed my oil then got my battery charged across the street and it started right on the first try. but had white smoke coming out of the header pipe flanges and the exhaust tips. I shut it right off tightened the flanges and gave it another try.
didn't get smoke this time, so i started to tweak the idle screw to get the carbs in place more or less before I got ready to dynamic sync them. It ran fine for a minute idling as long as I revved it a little every few seconds (something I always have to do.) I let it idle down and stop and it made a sort of "poof" noise that I've never heard.. now it wont turn over.
checked the oil and it was a bit overfilled. I wasn't sure hwo to properly change the oil of a cold bike, so I had drained it and put in the specified amount from the manual of 2.6q. However I drained 1/2-1 full qt to bring it back down to proper levels.

starter is clicking but no dice. I was told my battery was probably bum, so I bought a new one and charged it today. still nothing.

I'm not a mechanic, but I am a 24 year old mechanical engineering student, so I'm not totally inept I just don't know enough about motorcycles and XJ's but I got this bike to be a learning experience for me. That being said I am a broke college student and I don't want to turn this into a repair I can't do/afford. Where should I start in order to diagnose my problem?
I really had a number of things I could think of. corroded wires? bad spark plugs? seized engine? (god i hope its not that) maybe a bad starter, fuse, relay, or a bad solenoid?

any input would be great.

Thanks!


Also, one thing i had noticed that makes me think spark plugs, is that I noticed the previous owner hadn't properly gapped the plugs to .7-/.8 they we're closer to .1 much like if they weren't gapped out of the box. I was hesitant to not gap them myself, but the bike ran fine last summer like that. I boght new plugs but the tip on them is too big for my plug boots so I was forced to leave the old ones in for now

 

Make sure the battery has at least 12.6 v, then cross the starter relay with a screwdriver.
Clean up and tighten the ground wires.

 

Not sure what brand plugs you have (the new ones you wrote about), but for your bike, you'd be looking at NGK's BP8ES. You said that the tips don't fit, therefore you had to leave the old plugs in place. The tip(s) should screw off, leaving the threaded shaft which is much smaller and will fit to into the boots (caps). When I got my new plugs, the tips were really on there TIGHT! Took quite a bit of effort to get them screwed off.

Doesn't sound like new plugs will solve the "big picture" problem, however if you have them, you should put them in. As you start to eliminate problem possibilities, you'll end up finding the root cause. Someone on here will no doubt have the answer...

 

Try taking all the spark plugs out and turning the engine over without them. See if that allows the engine to turn over. If you have fluid (gas, some of that overfilled oil) in a cylinder that will hydrolock the engine and not allow it to turn. Don't be surprised if you get a nasty, messy spray of whatever out the spark plug holes. And if it works you will know the engine isn't locked up, and the starter system works. Quick and easy as well.

 

Did the drained oil smell of gas?

The white smoke, "poof", and erratic behavior all lead me to think that you have one or more stuck float needles, causing a very rich condition, and fuel to run into the crankcase.
The fact that the starter will not turn the engine over supports the idea of one or more cylinders being hydrolocked. DO NOT attempt to start the engine until you have made sure that the floats are shutting off fuel flow, and the fuel levels in the float bowls are correct, and that any fuel in the crankcase has been drained and then refilled with new oil.

 

The oil looked fine coming out, I had gas leaking into the case last year, after rebuilding the petcock and rebuilding the carbs twice thinking that was the problem. Eventually I got an authentic brand new petcock (about 2 weeks ago)

I know fuel level checks are a little involved, but checking the floats is just popping the air filter and making sure none are sticking? or do i need to pull the carbs apart again. I would think the fact that there's no gas in my oil would rule out most carb issues anyways.

 

Oh I had no idea I could take the plug apart like that I had always read just to be very careful with them. The new plugs are actually in my girlfriends car right now so I cant check the box.. but they were NGK BP8ES from what I can recall.
thanks for the tip

 

batt is reading fine. crossed starter like you said, got sparks but nothing else.

 

are you saying to click the starter button with the plugs taken out? I did that and nothing sprayed out. or is there another way I should be trying to turn it manually?

I put the bike in 5th and pushed it, i don't have enough driveway (and live on a busy road) so i cant go for a full push start, but the fact that it moves easy in 5th makes me think nothings locked. please correct me if im wrong

 

Pull the starter and bench test it. The short post on the side is the positive. The case of the starter is ground.
Two common problems are worn brushes, and occasionally the insulator between the post and the starter case cracking and causing a short.

 

Pulled it, hooked it up. Seems to be spinning really well, though I'm not sure how to know what's "good"

 

If it wants to fllip over if you don't hold on to it then it's working.
Now.... to find the problem that lies somewhere between the starter and the starter solenoid.
Possibilities;
A loose or bad ground wire (there is one on the engine just behing snd below where you pulled the starter).
A loose or bad positive feed wire (the one that was connected to the starter post).
Since you jumped the solenoid and the starter didn't' spin I'd strongly suspect one of the two wires.
If both are carrying current then you have a mechanical issue. The solenoid could still be bad, but the starter shold have spun when you jumped the two large posts on the solenoid even if the solenoid is faulty.

 

the starter did spin when I jumped the solenoid. but the engine wasnt turning over. just the same clicking, whirring noise like it wants to go.

 

Whirring noise?
Did you mention that before and I missed it?
Regardless......
A whirring noise is indicative of a slipping starter clutch. What oil do you currently have in the motorcycle?
I'll rule out another mechanical cause since you say that you can turn the engine over with the rear wheel while in 5th gear (though I would like to have you confirm that the engine spins freely by putting a wrench on the crank (under the left-front engine cover). You could also pull the spark plugs and see if it will spin the engine without compression.

 

I never said "whirring" before I had referred to it as "clicking".. but the more I've listened to it the more it sounds like whirring.
The clutch has always been a little iffy. ever since I got it last spring it's had issues here and there of now actually changing gear when I click up or down, I had always chalked that up to me not letting the shifter reset all the way before trying to click again. I tried to put it in 5th again just now while waiting on a repsonse from you and wasn't able to get out of neutral/first.

Before I open up the crank case on the left side I assume I wanna drain all my oil? on the oil note. I'm in New England so I am running Mobil Super 10w30 was planning to move to 20w40 once it starts to get closer to summer. I believe that's the correct specs for what I read for operating temps on this bike.

One thing on my oil change. I had to do the change when the bike was cold because I didn't want to run the oil that had been sitting all winter. could that have made it so oil wasn't properly distributed?

I'll wait for your reply before I open anything up.

 

Let me be really clear; I'm talking about the starter clutch, not the transmission clutch. The two are not connected. You do not need to pull the clutch cover (yet).

The oil you have in it now is an energy conserving oil, which means that it has friction modifiers, which will cause the starter clutch to slip.
Drain it (if you are careful you can strain it and save it for another engine).
With the starter off spray some carb cleaner through the starter hole toward the front of the engine (this will clean off any residual oil from the starter clutch).
Let her sit so the carb cleaner can drain out.
Refill the crankcase with any JASO-MA rated oil (Choosing Oil for a Wet Clutch Motorcycle).
The starter clutch should now slip less, and should continue to slip less often as the friction modifiers are diluted by the new oil.
Change the oil after about 100 miles
If the starter clutch continues to slip often then you may be looking at rebuilding it.

 

I need to grab a new filter and more carb cleaner, wont be able to get to this until Tuesday, but will certainly be checking back in with results. Should I spray carb cleaner on the crank as well? or do I probably not need to even bother with opening that as its most likely my oil choice that was the issue. I hadn't realized that "fancy" oil would screw up my machine.

I feel as if this is late to be including, the dude before me thought it would be cool to put pods on it. he gave me the original airbox but I havent had the tools to pull an engine off a bike (i also have to do a repair to a crack on the plastic chrome cover then repaint the thing) but from what I read I want to get that box back on there. I want to get it in with taking as little off my bike as possible. you seem to be a guru on these bikes, could you point me to a thread that shows me what I'll need and how to do it?

Also should I be preparing myself to be rebuild my starter clutch since its already slipping? I was reading the oil post you linked me and some of the comments made me think that's in my near future.

 

Slow down. One thing at at time. Do the oil change first. Rebuilding the starter clutch requires splitting the cases; don't go there yet.

Yes the airbox can be put into plae with the engine in the frame. The carbs have to come off, the starter has to come off, and having the battery box out helps. There are a few techniques that go from there involving either heating and "folding" the air box, removing the front engine mount bolts to tip the engine, or using finesse and colorful words.

You won't be able to get much of the carb cleaner on the crankshaft, and it doesn't matter since the starter clutch is not on the crankshaft. The starter clutch rides on the aternator shaft, which is chain driven from the crank. You don't need to flood the thing; you just want to wash away the too-slippery oil to help speed up the process of removing it.

 

sounds like a plan. like i said I probably wont get to it until Tuesday, class all day then going to check out a Virago 750 basket case my buddy wants me to take off his hands for $200.
Thanks for all your input so far.

 

Just got the oil changed. nothing has changed, but at least i have the right oil in it now. Though I forgot to try to crank it by hand before filling it, could i still do that without draining it again?

 

Yes, you can still crank it by hand. The purpose of that is to make sure that there is not some internal fault keeping the engine from spinning freely (this is another potential cause of a slipping starter clutch). Make sure all of the spark plugs are removed so you won't have to fight against the compression strokes. If the engine gets difficult to turn, or you hear a "thunk" stop turning the crank.

If she spins freely, then it's down to making sure that the starter (have you checked the brushes?) and battery are in top condition so that the starter can spin fast enough to let the starter clutch grab and turn the engine over. Since it had that slippery oil in it it may take several tries for the starter clutch to be able to grab consistently. Many members report that it can take another oil change and several hundered miles of riding before the starter clutch begins to grab normally again.

If it still slips with no improvement then you'll have to consider rebuilding the starter clutch (and attending to the other things that should be replaced when the cases are split).

 

I haven't checked brushes yet.

I haven't checked the brushes yet.
To clarify on cranking the engine, you had said below the left engine cover. am i removing the left engine cover and cranking something under it? or am I cranking the big allen key slot the is below the outside of the cover?

Is there a part in the manual about this? I have a pdf copy, but it's kind of a pain to navigate in my opinion, it lacks an index, or table of contents of any kind

 

I said under the left engine cover, not below.
There is a round cover on the left side of the engine with YAMAHA cast into it (see pic below). There is no oil behind it. Under it you will find the ignition plate. On the center of that plate there is a 19mm square boss. That is where you place the wrench to turn the engine over by hand. Be careful that the wrench engages well and that you do not hit the ignition pickup coils.



The big allen head bolt that is below (as in down from) the cover SHOULD NOT BE TOUCHED. It is a plug for the main oil gallery and they tend to break if not removed with care (and they never need to be removed unless the o-ring fails).

 

took me a moment to find a phillips the right size.
I got the cover off, but I dont have a socket big enough to wrench it, put some channel locks on it but was having issues getting grip to turn it so I could only turn it bit by bit. I got a full turn but then it seemed to get harder to turn so I stopped like you said.
How easily should it be turning if it were operating correctly?

 

If operating correctly it should turn with little resistance. If you still have the plugs in then it will become more difficult to turn as compression increases. You really need to get the proper sized open end wrench or you risk damaging the igintion pickups and the ignition plate when your channel locks slip. Any internal problem will be evident as the smoothness of the rotating assembly will suddenly no longer be smooth.

 

Oh, those screws arent Phillips; none of the screws on the bike are: http://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threads/jis-screwdrivers-things-have-changed.84768/#post-503578

 

I hadn't realized there was a difference. but I believe I was using JIS, it had the flattened tip like I'm seeing in pics, and it fit perfectly.

I'll have to crank it once my roommate returns my 19mm open end or wait for the mechanic across the street to open tomorrow. Is there a wrong direction to turn it? or will it just not turn one way

 

Be sure to turn it counterclockwise or you can bind up the timing chain.

 

Borrowed a wrench from the shop across the street. It turned almost twice before suddenly becomming difficult to turn. So I stopped like you said.

 

And you had the plugs out? Was it a "soft" resistance or a sudden hard stop? Were there any accompanying noises?

 

Had all the plugs out. I'd call it a soft resistance, there was a subtle click noise that started right as it got difficult so I stopped in fear of creating the thunk you mentioned

 

Oh dear. Something inside is not in one piece
Now is where things get tedious; figuring out what that thing is.
Do you have a service manual?

One more question; was the transmission in neutral?

 

Yes it was in neutral, yes I do have a manual. And sad day.. i just want to ride my bike again

 

My first thought is that it's a chunk of the alternator chain guide (these fail due to age). Drop the oil and remove the shift cover. You will see a large passage that leads to the crankcase and transmission. Shine a flashlight in there and look for any hunks of plastic. If you're lucky that's all the trouble is you can fish the biggest peices out and ride this summer, but you will need to replace the guide before too long or the chain will do some damage to the oil nozzle.

I'm going to tell myself to slow down, because we don't know that is where the problem lies just yet. There are other possibilities that should be investigated.

The easy things to check:

Under the valve cover;
Broken cam chain guide
Broken cam chain tensioner caused the cam chain to skip teeth and put the viave timing out badly enough that a valve is contacting the top of a piston.
Broken cam chain

Start with those two areas; behind the shifter cover, and under the valve cover.

 

+1

 

So I popped the shift cover off - in the process a good chunk of the seal stayed on the bike so I guess I'll be needing a new one. (if you can point me to a reputable distributor)

I didn't see any chain guide through any of the holes, where should i be looking. here's where I'm at



I also got my scholarship money today, I bought my bike initially to commute to school and save on gas with my ford explorer, so I can justify putting a bit into it now to keep it running long term. I bought myself a husky 185 piece mechanic set, a set of metric impact sockets, and got an open box husky 4-200 in/lb 1/4" torque wrench for $50 which I think should cover most of my xj tools. anything else you can recommend picking up for this job?

 

JIS screwdrivers.

 

yes right of course, he already mentioned those above. I had a hard time finding anything but phillips or flat at home depot. do I need to order a JIS set online? any reputable set you could recommend?

 

Look in that hole under the shifter fork with a flashlight.
If pieces of plastic are in there fish them out with a piece of stiff wire or needle nose pliers , pick whatever

 

Vessel makes some. You can find them on ebay or if it were me I would be ordering them from chacal. He is on this form.

 

as previously mentioned I'm a cycle noob. I'm assuming this is the shift fork... pretty difficult to get a good view through any of the holes but I didn't see any plastic chunks.

Time to open the valve covers?

 

The shift drum is the round thing with the ratcheting dohickey on it in the left og the pic. There is a hole above it. Look through that.
If you follow the ratcheting dohickey (shifter pawl) to the right where you will see a gear section (the teeth/crown looking things) you will find another hole below it. Look through that too. A good flashlight will help. A lenght of stiff wire can be used as a probe to carefully poke around. You might also want to use a dental mirror to try and look forward toward the crank since that's one place where a bit of th guide can jam inbetween the alternator chain and the sprocket on the crankshaft.

Yes pull the valve cover. You need to check valve shim clearances anyway (but not until the engine can spin freely).

Ordering parts from anyone but Chacal is a gamble since most places don't know the differences between which parts say they fit, and which parts actually fit.

 

Gasket - order from Len at xj4ever
Jis screwdrivers- order from Len at xj4ever

 

I just bought a 3 piece JIS set from Len.

Go Here:
http://www.xjbikes.com/forums/forums/xj4ever-supporting-vendor.23/

He has a few choices, either buying individually of buying the set. I bought the set listed as:

HCP17479 Aftermarket JIS-standards MECHANICS-GRADE SCREWDRIVER SET.

They are beautiful! The pride of my toolbox now.

Great quality... Hard plastic handles with rubberized edges, magnetized tips, chromed shafts with knurled finish where the shaft meets the handle ("grippy" texture like for when you might want to spin the driver between your thumb and pointer finger).

QUALITY!

 

Well it's going to be a couple weeks before I can really get back into working on my bike. I broke my femur yesterday. Should I get the crank and shift covers back on or will they be alright sitting off for a couple weeks? I can get a roommate and instruct him how to do it for me if need be.

Thanks for all your help up to now. I'll let you know when I get this list troubleshooted

 

I'd have your roomie put the covers back on. A broken femur is going to take more than a couple weeks to mend. Don't push yourself or you will bend hardware and maybe need a second surgery. When the doc tells you what to do, you do it...exactly. That is not a minor injury; be thankful that you weren't born 100 years ago.

 

So the ER diagnosed it wrong. Turned out to be a torn ACL and meniscus. I'm 7 weeks post surgery now, I can't ride for another 5-10 weeks but I'm able to jump back into working on my bike. Super grateful that it was "only" my knee and not the femur.

I also moved 2 weeks ago and a huge benefit of that is that my new roommate is a mechanical engineer. He hasn't worked on motorcycles much but he's already got a better handle on this thing than me - and he's very excited to help me get her running again.

He read through this thread and this evening we went back through the checks I already did.

• opened up starter, brushes and everything else in fine condition
• opened valve cover, everything looks fine and clean
• he said the starter solenoid looked fine
• put the wrench back on the crank - I thought it was too hard to turn but I let him have a try - it's rotating freely, I suppose I was too cautious with the regular resistance of turning it over. but he cranked it around several times and everything sounded fine.
• tried to stick a dental mirror in the under the shift cover but the one I bought is too big - I have better lighting in my new garage though and I'm fairly confident there's no pieces of the cam guide in there

so now we're a little stuck. what should be our next step?

 

Did you check the springs on the shift mechanism?

 

no I haven't yet. I assume your referring to the black spring that's visible in the photo I posted before of my crank case?

heading to bed, but he and I will be getting back into it tomorrow evening. Any other things I should add to a list for us to go through?