Low idle Engine cuts out on no throttle - oh, tyre clearance Q too

Oops. Double post

 

So.. What about shimming it a few mm? It wouldn't take much in my case to get it off the swingarm. and it looks to me like there would still be plenty of mesh between the final drive and the wheel hub.

Is this really that some 130 tires are too wide? It seems really, really surprising that they wouldn't design in more clearance...

Also, I ordered a used axleshaft (including the spacer) off of Ebay. I guess I don't have to wait for that to come in, it will be the same size as what I have.

 

I would personally be very wary about moving the meshed faces apart by any amount - that's a sure fire way to promote wear/slippage.

 

It really is the case that some 130mm tires are too wide. The sidewall profile matters too. The tires sold when the bike was new fit perfectly. Tire construction and design has changed a bit since then (even in bias tires).

I agree that moving the wheel over to compensate is not a good idea. You'll reduce the contact area at the drive splines and may cause damage.

Quick Q: I just noticed what tire it is. Continental discontinued the Blitz a while ago. How old is your example (age not mileage)?

 

Good question, my front was new on purchase but I have no reference for the rear. So I suppose I have enough reasons to change now..

can any of you recommend a 'true' 130 tyre that suits the model?

 

There is a 4 digit code inset to an oval on ths sidwall. That is the date code. The last two digits will tell you the year.

 

Just checked, no oval or four digit code on either sidewall unfortunately

 

It seems I have found success without resorting to non-factory shims.

When I assembled the wheel, I pushed the axle in until the assembly bottomed out. I then firmly snugged the pinch bolt. Doing so, I had about 1/4" to 3/8" of space between the pinch bolt frame and the "cotter" hole in the axle. In other failed attempts to clearance the wheel, the axle was pinched much closer to the cotter pin, just like the pictures in the thread from other folks having issues.

Tightening the castle nut on the other side, I got to 77 ft lbs and still had enough space for the tire. I yanked the tire all over to see if there was any play (indicating that I hadn't actually taken up the slack in the spacers), but it was solid. I also noted that the castle nut hit the spec'd torque much closer to the cotter pin holes (the nut was deeper before).

Why did this work? It doesn't seem like it should, as torque on the castle nut is dependent on preload of the bearings and spacers. I suspect the reason it worked is that the swingarms may be slightly out of square, and making sure the pinch is nice and tight helps bring it aligned- and give the tire the room it needs.

 

Glad you have had success, but forgive me, I can't fathom from your description exactly how you managed this.

You say you slid the axle in to place and on one particular attempt it bottomed out with more free axle protruding from the pinch bolt than on other failed attempts? ie, on all previous attempts the axle went 'too far' - and on your last attempt it just lined up perfectly?

Have you tried removing it again to see if you can replicate your success?

The first step of refitting the assembly is to slide it back into place till it bottoms out, and then tighten down on the pinch bolt. How do you think you have managed to make it bottom out in a different position on this occasion?

 

1. i would not recommend shimming at all. First, the gears are supposed to mesh a certain way, and I would not want to reduce the amount of contact. Second, if you shim anything, you're also moving the tire/rim over a bit and that will be moving or off-center....if your rear tire is not in line with your front tire, you're asking for a world of hurt.

2..axle--- the way I install mine: first I slide the axle all the way through til the shoulder bottoms out on the washer. Next, I hook up the brake arm, and the brake stay. Then I put a screwdriver through the axle hole to hold it as I tighten the castle nut. Once that is snug, te cotter pin goes in. then I tighten the pinch bolt. If the hole is too far into the swingarm, I get a smaller screwdriver to continue to hold the axle til the castle nut is snug. Regardless. Of how far the hole goes in, te pinch bolt is te LAST thing I tighten. I do not want the swingarm 'bent" inward.

 

But if you tighten the axle nut with the pinch bolt loose, don't you run the risk of the axle spinning as you tighten it?
I thought the axle was effectively a fully engaged fit? ie, the axle shoulder holds the wheel tightly in place whilst the torque is applied. I've read your method a couple if times and it seems to suggest that you are pulling the axle shoulder away from its seated position slightly in order to achieve 'correct' axle hole position?

I am completely happy to be proven wrong! Just a little confused as to how this axle achieves correct positioning in order to adequately hold the wheel in place.

Anachronism - I could really use a better understanding of how you achieved your fix

 

No, it won't spin if your holdin something through the hole. That's the purpose of the hole. If your axle is spinning with a screwdriver in the hole, then you obviously aren't holding the screwdriver....
If you tighten the pinch bolt before tightening the castle nut, you will force the swingarm to flex inward which is not good.

Did you forget the washer/spacer that goes right against the outside of the brake cover?

Roosters picture looks perfectly fine.

The axle shoulder needs to be firmly seated against the washer/spacer before tightening the castle nut. The final position of the hole is immaterial. Again, the hole is just a means for you to keep the axle from spinning. If it getting drawn into the swingarm and screwdriver is now stuck, back the castle nut off a teeny bit, pull the screwdriver out and get a skinnier one. Continue tightening the castle nut to spec.

Again, the pinch bolt is the LAST thing to tighten.

 

This is interesting, I recall having questions about torque values last time I pulled my rear tire, similar situation with the castle nut drawing in 'deeper' than the cotter pin hole.

Dave - if I understand correctly, your explanation of installation does not carry a torque value with it? Because the torque comes from holding a screw driver whilst snugging up the nut? Or I suppose one could put a block under the screwdriver and then torque. Either way the idea of tightening the pinch bolt last is a "Doh!" kinda thing.

 

I didn't give any torque values because I don't use them there. This is MY way of doing it:

I snug the castle nut down quite tight while spinning the wheel.
Then I back it off till just barely loose
Next, I tighten it up again til just snug, while spinning the wheel
Finally, I turn the castle nut either forward or backward to whatever is the closest hole for the cotter pin to go through.
After that is all done, NOW I tighten te pinch bolt.
IF....the hole for the screwdriver is constantly pulling too far into the pinch, and I can't keep a screwdriver through it-----THEN, I'll remove te screwdriver and temporarily tighten the pinch bolt just to keep the axle from one spinning while finishing the castle nut. BUT I will not put the cotterpin in until: I have loosened the pinchbolt to allow the swing arm to "unspring" itself. Ten I'll check the castle nut, install the cotter pin, then FINALLY tighten the pinch bolt.

iN every case, the pinch bolt will be loose, right a before it's final tightening which allows the swing arm to be not sprung, and the pinch lot will always be the last thing to tighten.

It sounds drawn-out and complicated, but it took longer for you to read this than it takes to do the job.

For those who have a heart attack because I'm not using a torque wrench.....it's not that high of a torque, and I approach it like tightening car wheel bearings. i go by feel on these. I know what I want it to feel like.

 

Tightening the pinch bolt last is the proper procedure, as outlined in every version of the service manual.

I do use a torque wrench, and a steel pin punch (or rod) is perfect for holding the axle while setting the torque.

 

I stand corrected, I had convinced myself that my manual told me to tighten punch bolt before castle nut.

I'll go play with the wheel based on the above advice and see what happens.

Would it be correct to say that the axle/hub configuration is 'almost' that of a single sided swingarm, with the pinch bolt simply adding lateral rigidity to the equation?

 

That would be essentially correct, however the right leg of the swingarm is required to prevent twisting/bending of the driveshaft tube under load. The pinch bolt is there to affix the right end of the axle to the right swingarm leg so the axle can neither spin, or wobble in the axle and swingarm bores.

 

Yes, my Haynes manual states to tighten the pinch first. I am experienced enough to know not to treat a 3rd party manual as gospel, but in my case, getting the pinch bolt good and snug seemed the difference between rubbing and having just enough clearance not to.

 

i tighten the pinch bolt then the axle nut then loosen the pinch bolt give the wheel a wiggle and tighten the pinch bolt again
works for me

 

Yup, that works..... That's my default version if the hole gets too far into the pinch, as I stated above

 

I have spent the last couple days going through manuals (both FSM and Haynes). Nowhere in any of the manuals that I checked did it give any clear directions on reinstalling the rear wheel! They all give the basic removal process of removing the cotter pin. Unbolt and remove the nut. Then release the pinch bolt to remove the axle shaft. The only information given on reinstallation is to grease the splines and torque to 77 ft lbs. This leaves it with the typical reverse to reinstall process.

Which leaves the pinch bolt tight after the nut is torqued down.
I have problems with this as it leaves the free arm in a stressed condition Releasing the pinch bolt takes care of this problem but also creates another one. It also releases the tension on the axle from the applied torque of the nut. I would re-torque the axle nut after releasing the pinch bolt.

I am going to step back to these two pics.

And this one!

It appears to me that the tire is rubbing only in one small spot. This makes me think that the wheel might be bent or the tire might be bad. But once you look at the right side bearing. It looks like the bearing might not be seated in the hub properly. It looks to be angled in the hub.

If this is the case. This could cause the wheel to run on an angle and allow the tire to make contact in a small spot opposite where the bearing sticks out. Check this by laying a straight edge on the bearing to make sure it is square to the hub. Or spin the wheel in the swing arm to check the spacing at the spot opposite the rub mark.

You can check for a bent wheel by attaching (Tape, C clamp) a pointer to the torque tube or free arm to check the spacing at the wheel rim.

~Ghost

 

nope, the axle nut stays tight. the shoulder that keeps the axle from going through the wheel and the nut on the other side is where the clamping force is when the nut is tightened.
the pinch bolt and the rest of the axle is outboard of that.

 

It's just a bad angle on the photo, the bearing is dead flat in the hub.

What I still don't fully understand is critical axle placement. As Polock states, the contact points creating the compression are the shoulder on the axle, and the hub nut/washer.

To create tension, the axle shoulder has to press against the outer bearing face.
To maintain this tension, surely the axle has to remain pressed in place against outer bearing face?

We all agree that the axle needs to be fully seated before applying tension..(?)
My axle passes slightly further into the hub than others. Some stick out enough to leave the adjustment hole proud, others (like mine) finish with the hole slightly obscured by the swingarm.

It has been suggested to effectively pull on the axle slightly, in order to bring the hole back outside the line of the swingarm. But by doing this are we not also unseating the axle shoulder from the bearing face?.. (and losing tension/alignment?)

If so, then the axle should surely be fully inserted, and torqued to spec.
Which goes back to my original question.. Why are some axles seating further into the hub than others?..

 

Prior overtorquing of the axle nut perhaps? Which could cause the bearing spacer to partially collapse, moving the right bearing further inward.

 

The bearing spacer is pretty stout. Same wall thickness as the hub spacer. It would take some serious over torquing to do anything. More likely strip the threads first.

Front Bearing Spacer: 15mm x 22mm x 72mm (2.83") [90560- 15116-00]
Rear Bearing Spacer: 17mm x 24mm x 63mm (2.48") [90560-171125-00]

Laterally collapsing 3.5mm (1/8") wall gonna take BIG MONKEY wrench!

~Ghost

 

and this?
How is correct torque being achieved when pulling the axle in the opposite direction? And is there not a risk that slack is being introduced into the assembly?

 

Ok the plot thickens somewhat.
As advised I used a zip tie on the brake arm to gauge the straightness of the rear wheel (rim), and thankfully it seems to be perfectly true. However, when spun I can easily detect a wobble in the tyre itself.

It doesn't end there though. I tried torquing the axle nut to spec without any pinch bolt tension and the tyre promptly trapped itself against the swing arm, I could barely turn the wheel at all.

So without access to calipers I crudely measured the tyre width at its widest point and came up with a measurement of around 137/138mm.

So potentially Several mm could be clawed back with a known narrower 130 tyre. Not sure if this is going to be enough but it's probably my best option at the moment.

Could I ask any of you to possibly measure up your rear tyre and let me know your findings?..

Do we have any reference for narrow/wide tyres?
I'm considering a Bridgestone BT45.

 

So the tire is not mounted true to the wheel? Or is the wobble limited to the section that is rubbing?
What causes some concern for me is that Continental no longer offers the TKH24 Blitz tire. This means it has been out of production for a while.
What are the 4 numbers stamped in to the sidewall of the tire?

The Dunlop D404 is a known good fit.
And I know that there are guys running the Bridgestone BT45.

~Ghost

 

a lot of tires have a very thin line molded in that will be very close to the rim when mounted, makes it easy to see if the bead is seated all the way.
take a close look at your tire

 

Yep, the tyre is properly seated on the rim, both sides.

I don't have a a date reference on the sidewall.

 

Hello again folks. I'm about to shell out on a rear tyre but before I do i'm keen to ensure I order the 'narrowest' profile 130 in order to give myself the best chance of clearance.

Can I politely request that someone gives me a real world measurement of the width of their tyre at its widest point?

I've called a couple of tyre shops but they won't order anything in to check sizing as they won't know the measurement till the tyre is fitted and inflated - and thus are unable to return it should it not measure up favourably against my swingarm.

The Dunlop D404 recommended earlier in the thread appears to be nigh on impossible to source in Europe (one dealer said it is front fitment only - despite Dunlop's website saying otherwise). At the moment I am looking at shelling out on the BT-45.

The contact point on my tyre is the very edge of the tread pattern - where the sidewall meets the tread - most modern tyres seem to have a sharp edge profile at this point. Im wondering if older pattern tyres are 'rounder' and help shave a few MM off at this point. The D404 certainly appears rounder/smoother at this point.



The Metzeler Perfect and Dunlop American somethin'or'other appear to look pretty classic and round.

Sorry to be a PITA but I dont want to lay out best part of $150 and find myself in exactly the same position as I am currently, if I can help it.

 

When I had a 750Maxim I used a 130 90 Kenda
Filed the weld on the inside of the swingarm a little and the tire just touched.
The tread on a Kenda overhangs the sidewall so I spun the tire and touched the side of the tread with a disk sander to get 1/8 inch clearance.
Never had another problem

 

Ha, I was wondering about removing some tyre material but thought i'd be lambasted for such a suggestion!

 

on a Kenda tire that little edge doesn't mean anything, 2-3 mm won't matter at all.
lambasted, i'm used to it, these guys are pretty forgiving anyway

 

Well waddya know?.. The BT45 fits like a glove



Problem solved, wheel now lining up and spinning like a charm. Which leaves me time to move on to correctly fitting my next little project...