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1985 XJ700 X Looks like blowen head gasket

Discussion in 'XJ Technical Chat' started by Timbox, Jan 29, 2017.

  1. Timbox

    Timbox Well-Known Member

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    Picked this bike up a few weeks back from "C" list. It was a long shot as its plate has a 2013 sticker and was not running. After reading so many good sticky posts on this forum, I got her running today. Normally that is a big smile and then start to work on the little stuff. Well not so!

    Once is started to warm up I noticed that under the bike there was this oily water drip coming from each one of the exhaust holes under the bike. Then the white smoke started to pore out and she started to misfire and act up.

    Took the plugs out and looks like my #2 must have blown the head gasket, as of the compression test.

    Now I have to tear her down and take a look see what I have in there. Sense I live in Wisconsin and it is very snowy outside, I guess I have the time.

    Looking for support that I am looking in the right area and that I guess I can clean up the heads and or pistons of carbon while I am there. Hoping to take the valve train off without taking it all apart, but I would guess I might have to brake the cam chain, not going to do that. I will look in the book again I think around 3-5 and see what is the best way to approach this.

    Thanks again for all the great information on the site and thanks to Len for all the good parts and help.
     
  2. Timbox

    Timbox Well-Known Member

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    Some pics of her
     

    Attached Files:

  3. tabaka45

    tabaka45 Well-Known Member

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    You are going to need to get a service manual. I got mine on eBay for about $10.00. It was a disk that I loaded on my computer and printed the pages as needed. I have the air cooled 700, but ask your questions and there are folks on this forum that can give you the answers and point you in the right direction.
     
  4. hogfiddles

    hogfiddles XJ-Wizard, Host-Central NY Carb Clinic Moderator Premium Member

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    The Maxim X is a different beast.....you'll have a lot more to do with the valve train than on an airhead, AND you have the coolant system to deal with too......
     
  5. Timbox

    Timbox Well-Known Member

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    Yes it will be interesting, but it has to be done. I am sure that I will have to take the valves all the way down as I am not going to cut the chain. Just have to take my time and keep all the parts labeled well. I do have the manual on disk and I might see if a local printing store will print it out for me.

    I am hoping it is only the head gasket and nothing else would be causing this. The compression test on #2 was around 90 PSI, guessing that is what I might as well hone the cylinders and maybe new rings while I am there, she does have nearly 40K miles on her.

    I will keep my eye on when I get her opened up. I will post questions as they come along with pics to help explain. Thanks
     
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  6. tabaka45

    tabaka45 Well-Known Member

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    I've been told that rings aren't available for the 700 engines--at least not the air cooled engines. If that has changed it would be nice to know. I've always been leery of doing the valves and not the rings or visa versa since I had a problem with a Subaru many years ago. I took it in to have the blown head gasket replaced and the mechanic talked me into do the valves at the same time. The car had about 40,000 on it, ran fine, and used no oil. After the valve job it started using a quart every 250-300 miles and the mechanic told me that I should have done the rings at the same time since better sealing valves were causing oil to be sucked past the rings and causing the increased oil consumption. Of course, he should have mentioned that when he suggested the valve job since he was the mechanic. In any case, I sold the car to a lady that didn't mind adding oil and bought another car. I've often thought that he was blowing smoke up my backside and probably just screwed up the valve job.
     
  7. Jetfixer

    Jetfixer Well-Known Member

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    You should not have to "break the chain" release cam tensioner , use a piece of wire around chain tie it to top frame tube. Remove both Cams and the start removal of the head , you need to completely drain cooling system . Agree with tabaka 45 get a manual first .:)
     
  8. Timbox

    Timbox Well-Known Member

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    Did a cold compression check again today 1,3 &4 were 130 psi but #2 was only 90. Warmed the bike up, and #2 came up to 125 psi the others stayed close to the same. I still think that #2 is the bad cylinder. When I pulled the spark plugs it seemed that 1 & 2 were wet and it was not fuel.

    Drained and removed the radiator and did a limited run of the engine, not as much smoke or white smoke but still there. Could have been leftover water/oil in the exhaust pipe but can't be for sure. The bike did run a lot better for the short time I had it going.

    Drained oil (new oil before starting and trouble shooting) and no water in the oil, very dirty for as limited of running the bike had. Always good to do a little oil flush. The coolant was clean and had no oil in it, so I am a little confused. I would have thought I would have had coolant in the oil or oil in the coolant if I had a blown head gasket. Something is making her run not correct and it is not the carbs, no popping, backfire ect.. that comes with the carbs. Just trying to find out why I have either oil smoke or water smoke in the exhaust.

    Ordered manual, pulled coils, carbs and valve cover, at this point I will hold off until the manual gets here.
     
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  9. Jetfixer

    Jetfixer Well-Known Member

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    One other thing you could try. Autozone has a head gasket repair liquid it aint cheap , but it does work it is like 39 $ your compression is not that bad if it was truly blown you would be down to 0 to 50 psi .
     
  10. a100man

    a100man Well-Known Member

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    Strange - low compression could be down to valves but I don't think that would get better when warm..(BTW is the 'X' 20-valve like an FZ?)

    You can get coolant that changes colour when a leak is detected or you can try peering into the top of the coolant
    filler and look for bubbles - apparently.
     
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  11. MattiThundrrr

    MattiThundrrr Not a guru

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    Yes, the water cooled x has 5 valves per cylinder. It's a slightly detuned version of the fz. Different angle to the transmission, as the fz needs a more compact package.
     
  12. Stumplifter

    Stumplifter Well-Known Member

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    . . . you said "compact package"!
     
  13. Timbox

    Timbox Well-Known Member

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    Pulled the cams today and ready to take the head off in the next day or two. The valve gasket looks very new so not too sure what I will find when I dig deeper. The exhaust ports are all lined with carbon, need to get them cleaned up and maybe even do a little polishing while I can.

    As for those little valve shims, that will be a trip later on. I had a issue with cylinder 3 intake side, the caps that go over the valve springs and hold the shims in place did not want to come out, they moved but would not come out. With a little work I was able to lift intake side of the cover enough to get my fingers in there to secure them. Two of the three shims stayed in place and one held on to the end of the valve stem.

    Need to find the bolt removal order for the head, then I think sense I am this far into it, I will check the specs on the rings and look at the jugs to see if they need to be honed.

    I saw a cool vid on U tube, they did a water test on the head with the valves in place to see if they would hold water. I would guess that would work with motorcycle heads as well? I would guess mine has all kinds of carbon on the head and top of the pistons. Almost 40K miles on it, so if I find it clean I will be shocked.
     
  14. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

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    Water is not the best fluid to use to test for valve sealing. Use a light oil (Marvel Mystery Oil works well).
     
  15. Timbox

    Timbox Well-Known Member

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    Cool, I have some of that will give it a try. Thanks and congrads on your "Moderator" promotion :)
     
  16. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

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    Edited for clarity. :)
     
  17. Timbox

    Timbox Well-Known Member

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    k-moe, that was good. Here are a few pics of my progress, also a visual record of how things looked and will look at the end.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  18. Jetfixer

    Jetfixer Well-Known Member

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    Before you pulled cams did you check valve clearance? Since shims are under bucket do not get the mixed up .
     
  19. a100man

    a100man Well-Known Member

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    Oh my giddy aunt - I hope I don't ever have to get that far in to my FZ.. 8 valves is about my limit I think..
     
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  20. Jetfixer

    Jetfixer Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I'm thinking of the Aircooled 700 has shims under buckets ,your picture looks like these are over buckets ?
     
  21. schmuckaholic

    schmuckaholic Well-Known Member

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    I was under the impression that the engine is a modified version of the one used in the FZR. One of the mods made was to allow the use of side-draft Mikuni carbs, because the cylinder bank sits more vertically; the FZR has its cylinders canted forward about 45 degrees or so and used downdraft carbs.

    There's a site in Canada dedicated to this model (Maximum Maxim-X). Might be worth giving it a gander.

    No. Under bucket here, IIRC.
     
  22. Timbox

    Timbox Well-Known Member

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    Jetfixer,
    This head has the little cups that are under the buckets. I could have checked them but I knew I was pulling them off anyway, kept them in order and I hope after my leak test I will at least know the valves are closing all the way.
    [​IMG]
    Looks like the oil is staying put, but I will let it sit overnight and see if any leakage takes place.
    [​IMG]
    Need help on this, I think the PO must have worked on the bike, looks to me like there are no wear marks on the cylinder walls for a bike that has 40K. One or two of the cylinders do have vertical marks but not too bad. There is also no lip on the top of the ring wear mark, can't grip it with a fingernail.
    [​IMG]
    Can you guys see those little dots on the cylinder wall? That is strange unless that is from the oil ring and the bike was rebuilt recently and just not run in.
    [​IMG]
    Two head gaskets? I have worked on different makes of bikes and normally they only come with one. Have to do some research on this, could be why I was having issues with #2.
    [​IMG]
    That has to be a fresh honed cylinder don't you think?
    [​IMG]
    Tried to point out the water mark on #2 when I pulled off the head. Non of the other cylinders had any water issues on or under the gasket.
    [​IMG]
    This also led me to think something was not right with the seal.
    [​IMG]
    Not too much carbon build up, something on the top of #2 but I am going to guess it was from the coolant getting in there and leaving a deposit of some type.

    Hope that is not too pic heavy, I keep them in VGA so they will not eat up too much space or loading time.

    So, sense I am this far do I pull the cylinders off and re-hone them and check the rings? I would guess the gasket was the issue and I have lots of cleaning to do on the head. There is a bit of carbon on the exhaust side and the #1 intake looks a little oily (no pics of that).

    Intake boot 1 & 3 were also loose as in finger loose. good thing I am doing a full or almost full top end check. Any words of advice would be great, thanks.
     
  23. Jetfixer

    Jetfixer Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure about 2 head gaskets either... the reason I asked about checking valve clearance is because if cams have to be removed to get to the shims knowing if all are in spec then all is good. If not you will need to know clearance see what shim is under bucket the manual should have a shim chart similiar to the aircooled model. Now as to pulling barrels that is up to you caution with the pistons and rings $$$$
     
  24. a100man

    a100man Well-Known Member

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  25. Timbox

    Timbox Well-Known Member

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    a100man,
    You are the second person to suggest that, maybe the PO put two gaskets in there because the head is warped?

    I do have a good m/c shop close to me if that is the case and I have access to a good straight edge as well. Not too sure if that gasket is that thick and it just separated when I pulled the head? Just doesn't seem right is all.

    As for the leak or wet test all looks good. Nothing from the naked eye test on the oil leaking on the valve side of the heads so that is good. Need to the the stone honing device and the straight edge from my buddy and then back to it. Those dark rings on top of the cylinders is telling me they need a honing. I am hoping that it is just the standard ring set I will need for each piston after that. Lots of carbon needs to be cleaned off from the pistons, head and ports.
     
  26. Jetfixer

    Jetfixer Well-Known Member

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    If you have a NAPA close to you many still have machine service ,they should be able to check your head for warpage.
     
  27. Timbox

    Timbox Well-Known Member

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    Found the time today to get the jugs and pistons removed. Then did a lot of cleaning, more carbon then I thought. The jugs really need to be honed now that I have them off and can get a better look at them. Seems like the pistons are in good shape and the ring tolerance is .012 on all cylinders, so I am hoping a standard replacement set will work. Jugs ring tops were really full of oil or carbon. Either way it showed signs of age or leaking gaskets or both.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2017
    Stumplifter likes this.
  28. Simmy

    Simmy Well-Known Member

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    Timbox have a close inspection of the wrist pin tolerances. I read this is a weak point on the 5-valvers but found no issue with my own, however my motor had less than 10,000 kms when I had it apart. It could be nothing but while you have it apart easy to see.
     
  29. Timbox

    Timbox Well-Known Member

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    Slimmy,
    Thanks and I will, by hand there was no wiggle but that is just to find major issues. Connecting rods also seem to be doing good. Should be able to get things started around Wednesday and then get to ordering parts once I know what all is needed. This cooler weather is no helping either as you well know.

    From the pic that are wear makes on them for sure. Three of them came out with a push of a finger #3 was another story but came out with a 1/2" deep well socket on an extension. Pushed right out with the proper tool and angle.
    [​IMG]
     
  30. Stumplifter

    Stumplifter Well-Known Member

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    Tim, where in Wisconsin are you, you cheesehead!
    It was -3 this morning and a high of 13 today up here near Tomahawk.
     
  31. Timbox

    Timbox Well-Known Member

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    Tomah, look were the I-90/94 splits, or look for the Cranberry capital of WI...very close to that...population 360!
     
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  32. Rebem

    Rebem Member

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    Timbox, how did you clean up the pistons and head so nicely? What did you use?
     
  33. Timbox

    Timbox Well-Known Member

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    B-12 Chemtool by Berryman, compressed air, soft brass brush and "Q" tips
     
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  34. rocs82650

    rocs82650 Well-Known Member

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    Welcome aboard. You've got this. 40k is nothing for a well maintained xj. If everything checks out upon re-assembly you'll run it for another 40k+ easy.

    Gary H.
     
  35. Timbox

    Timbox Well-Known Member

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    Gary H,

    The only thing I have found so far in the pic above is the head gasket may have been leaking on #2. Everything else looks good including the rings, they are still .012 on all four cylinders. Still wonder if the PO just did a top end and never ran it in. Then had the blown head gasket and just left the bike?

    Not that I am that cheep but I was thinking only for a moment to use the rings again after I hone the jugs. I would guess this is a bad idea and I just need to order a standard ring set.

    Thanks for the encouragement, it will be needed at I try to fit those pistons back in the jugs.
     
  36. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

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    I dont know that I even see the need to re-hone. If you do (pics in general aren't the best for determining that) then a pass or two with a ceramic bottle-type brush will suffice. Re-usiing rings is not a bad idea unless you're hamfisted and damaged them when you took them off of the pistons (personally I just leave them on unless the grooves are really crusty.
    You will need new wristpin clips. Those are ALWAYS a one-time-use item.
     
  37. Timbox

    Timbox Well-Known Member

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    Thanks K-moe, I was wondering why not, the rings do look to be in good shape. Yes the wrist pin clips will be on order along with the gaskets I need in the morning. It took a long time today getting the crankshaft to jugs gasket off. I should have picked up some gasket remover, but I didn't have it on hand so I just took my time.

    The rings are in good shape, took my time with those as well. I also have a ring pliers on order and that will be here this week.
     
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  38. rocs82650

    rocs82650 Well-Known Member

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    +1.

    Gary H.
     
  39. Timbox

    Timbox Well-Known Member

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    While I am waiting on parts, removed the back wheel to take a look at the brake. Wanted to make sure that the shoe had not separated from age. Looked a little older but not 30+ yrs, so taking a guess that the PO had them changed out. I cleaned vacuumed and then put grease on the pivot to make that a little smother. Enough shoe there for at least a season maybe two. The front pads looked good too, now lets just hope the clutch is in good shape.

    Cleaned out all the old grease in the rear gear hub and then applied more grease. The axle was not too bad, cleaned it up with some steal wool, greased and re installed.

    Started to take some of the carbon out of the exhaust ports on the head. Lots of that, so that will take some time. Thinking of using a polishing wheel on a dremel to see if that would work. Like I said lots and lots of carbon, more on #1&2 then 3&4.
     
  40. Timbox

    Timbox Well-Known Member

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    So the head and the jugs checked out at true no warp. I did a little honing and will take a look see what the rings spec out too if I will go any further. I know the standard set is .012 to I think .018 for a tolerance so I will stay within that range.

    I wanted to share some about going from POD's to staying with a air box. I got my kit in a while ago and then got talked (lots of reading) in to staying with the stock air box. This is the second set of jests and instructions I have from this company. If the stock main is 100 to 105 by the spec book these people wanted me to do this. The want me to stagger the getting on the bike because of heat.

    "The outer cylinders run cooler since they has a direct air blast and a larger surface area to remove heat. The inner cylinders run hotter since they are sandwiched between, don't receive the same airflow, and have less surface area to dissipate heat. Fuel has a cooling property to it, so by flowing a little more to the inner cylinder, it keeps it cooler, increasing engine life. Also, intake flow characteristics are a little different. This is true even with water cooled engines. There is also another benefit to the very tiny difference in fuel flow. Since altitude, humidity, and temperature are not constant, and they have an effect on jetting, by going with the slightest difference, it will allow the engine as a whole to perform best even as those factors change, since it is spreading the average. The only thing better is fuel injection, which automatically changes based on those conditions."

    I just thought I would share this with you guys and still stick with the stock air box. The bike came to me with 115 mains and I am guessing that is whey there was so much carbon inside. I will run a K&N filter but a stock air box so have ordered a (4) 105's and (4) 107.50 hoping that this will be the only changes in the mains I will need.
     
  41. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

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    On some models Yamaha did stagger the jetting.

    The K&N will lean the mixture out almost as much as running pods will. You might need to bump the pilots up too.
     
  42. Timbox

    Timbox Well-Known Member

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    K-moe,

    I have also worked on a few different bikes that had different jetting, but none of them were in line fours. Most of the jetting issues from heat were from the V twins. Not a pro here just the shade tree wrencher so I am sure there are some out there. I have to admit that seeing is believing though, so today I will do some searching and she what I can find.

    So with the K&N filter you are thinking #40 pilots on top of the 105/107.50 mains? I will have to jump back into Len's area and do some more reading on that, I think most recommend bumping the main and pilots up two. Thanks

    Wow should never started to read up on this topic...I see way too much info and that gets into the super science of it. Just want the bike to run well and not carbon up. I will play a little but not go too crazy. Understand the heat issue with the air cooled engines and the 2 stroke, but that has got to me for race environment. or at least more tuning then I am looking for. #40's are on order though, just to make up for the main jet change.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2017
  43. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

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    You're going to have to jet, check the plugs, and jet again if needed. The K&N shouldn't need as much of a bump as pods will, but the guidelines are just that; your bike, in your town, with your gas may need slightly different jetting.
     
  44. Timbox

    Timbox Well-Known Member

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    K-moe, sounds good to me, once I get the rings seated again that will be the next step, unless she falls on her face.

    Any word on using "colortune" I have read some different articles and there seems to be two sides to this. I know that is only for setting the Pilot jet setting but it seems to have good science behind it. It is great to see "dowski68" making some vids of the xj700 X, great to see.
     
  45. Timbox

    Timbox Well-Known Member

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    So while I am waiting on parts, I thought I would measure the valves with the head off. My idea is to put the shims, buckets and cams back on with the head off the bike and then see if I can get the measurements. Is this a crazy idea or one that might work? Any feedback would be good.
     
  46. Simmy

    Simmy Well-Known Member

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    I think that would work. You might want to measure them again after the final assembly just to make sure nothing changed.
     
  47. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

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    You can use a colortune for setting more than the idle circuit, but you do need to be good at holding the throttle steady.

    The only hary thing about measuring valve clearnaces with th head on a bench is making damned sure that the head is held securely and the valves have room to open without hitting anything. Best practice is to build a jig. You can cobble together a suitable one out of scrap lumber pretty easily.
     
  48. hogfiddles

    hogfiddles XJ-Wizard, Host-Central NY Carb Clinic Moderator Premium Member

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    ....and making sure the carrier is torqued to the correct specs so that there's no false clearance
     
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  49. Timbox

    Timbox Well-Known Member

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    Cool thanks for the verification that it is a valid plan. Yes the wood jig is also the plan so that nothing gets damaged and scratching surface areas. Good weekend job...thanks again guys.
     
  50. k-moe

    k-moe Pie, Bacon, Bourbon. Moderator Premium Member

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    I made a mistake again....
    You aren't going to build a jig. You will be building a fixture.

    Long, long, long week.
     

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