Starter Behaving Erratically

The bike starts, usually, on the first attempt. Which is good.

But lately, the MO has been if it dies, and I have to try again, it won't even turn over. The same goes if I start it, take off to go on an errand, get back on the bike (after just a few minutes), and... nothing.

Today I thought I was going to be stranded. It started right away, as always, and got me to the Napa parts store. I was in there less than 10 minutes, and it took about 20 attempts for anything to happen when I went to start it. This seems to be getting steadily worse, and I am loathe to take it anywhere for fear of being stranded, for real.

Here's what happens: I turn the ignition and press the starter. The oil light flickers, I hear a sound coming from the battery compartment area (solenoid?). A clicking sound. Repeated attempts bring the same result. If I let it sit for several minutes, I usually have better luck. But it better catch right away or I will have to wait some more. But when it cranks, it cranks good.

I am thinking solenoid? Sound right? Is there any way to test this before I plunk down $30 for another one?

 

If you have a battery charger remove the solenoid & hook the charger up to it. Attach the neg jumper to one side and just touch the other jumper to the other side. It should click everytime. If that works clean the contacts well before installing. Next check the battery for proper voltage which is about 12.5 volts, since it could also be a battery about to go. With the bike running I would also check battery voltage to see if the charging system is good. You should get about 13.8 volts with the bike running.
Other thing to check are the starter brushes. Remove the starter and then remove the two long bolts that hold it together. Carefully remove the gear end which has two small planetary gears inside, so don't lose them. Check the length of the brushes inside. 8.5mm is minimum length.
Easy way to check the starter without removing it is; next time it won't start, put the bike in gear and roll it until the engine moves. Then try the starter. If this gets it to fire then the brushes or the starter are bad.

 

I will try that. It clicks every time now. But most of the time that's as far as it goes.

The battery is new, and has been on a battery tender when the bike is not in use.

 

See this comment and this comment for a method to test the solenoid. You can also do this to bypass a failed solenoid.

EDIT: Make sure the bike is not in gear when you do this.

 

Ok, tried to start it. Click, nothing.

Tried Gamuru's double secret method )), and Vroom. Every time.

Bad solenoid? Does this mean I have to carry around a screwdriver for awhile?

 

Yep... and yep, at least until you get a new solenoid.

 

Good. I like simple solutions.

It looks like I can get a new one for $31. Just to make sure, it's a "starter relay assy", #6 on this diagram:

http://houseofmotorcycles.bikebandit.co ... 982/633301

 

The "Symptom" is a Classic one.

You need to Clean-out the carbon dust from the Brushes and Commutator area of the Starter Motor.

You can do the shortcut.
Pull the starter and take-out the two long screws.
Pull the Electric side cover back far enough to insert the Spray Tube from a quality can of electrical component cleaner in there and douche-out the Brushes and Commutator area.

Or ...

Overhaul the whole starter including installing new brushes!

 

Rick - Doing work on the starter motor has long been on my to-do list. But given the symptoms, isn't the solenoid the culprit here? It starts every time when I short across the the terminals.

 

dandrewk, that should be correct.

Rick, if he bypasses the solenoid and it cranks then why would this be considered a "symptom" of a no-start condition and not the cause?

 

I should note, it -does- click, it just doesn't turn over anything unless I short across the terminals.

I disconnected the wire to the starter motor (the bottom one) and then ran a multimeter across the terminals. The ohm meter didn't budge when I engaged the starter button. It clicked, but no meter reading.

 

I wasn't paying attention.
That's why!
The RedSox are in the World Series and I scrolled-up and read the initial Post with more of my diminishing mental faculties looking at the TV rather than paying attention to the computer screen.

Happens whenever a pretty girl comes over to meet my daughter when they are going out all dolled-up; too.

My red face is glowing back at me from the flat screen in front of me.

My bad!

 

I know you all have reached the conclusion that the problem is the relay, but this leads me to a question. In my automotive training I was always taught that if the relay clicks when power is applied, then it's good. Can anyone explain to me how the relay will click even though it's bad? Thanks for any help you can give me with that. Also, for what it's worth, the day I bought my bike I began experiencing the same erratic starting issues you describe, which kept getting worse. Bought a starter rebuild kit and it solved all my problems. Found a terrible primary wire connection, burnt up brush, and all kinds of junk when I tore the starter down.

 

A relay is a type of remote switch - usually used to switch a high voltage or high current load with a low voltage/current control.

The click being heard is the switch throwing (good). Problem is the contacts in the switch are bad/dirty so no crank. You are correct that if it doesn't click it can also indicate a bad relay.

 

My experience (from the automotive side as well as tearing a solenoid or two apart) is that when they click but don't send current to the starter, the metallic washer that the armature pulled across the terminal lugs was usually burned and pitted badly. As a matter of fact, I think on some of the very first solenoids you could remove that washer and turn it over for another go. With these new sealed units that’s not really possible... unless you're really careful. :wink:

Here's a picture I found showing a typical solenoid's internal contacts that have failed from fatigue. Note how badly burned they are from arcing.



(Here's a picture of a solenoid's contacts that are still in pretty good shape for comparison.)

 

If I replace the switch, I'll try and pull apart the old one for a look-see. There is a click, but no current or the ohm meter would have dropped to zero.

 

Give this Cleaning-out procedure a shot.
There's no down-side.

I strongly suspect that the Commutator area is fouled with conductive carbon Dust. That would contribite to an intermittent Starter problem.
Also, the Planetary Movement clogged-up with "Dead" grease would contribute to a "Mechanical Resistance" to the Motor engaging.

I only suggest this because it a "Win; win" ... and, It's EXACTLY what happened to me whan I adopted the 750-Max I have that wouldn't Start when I started looking her over.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Starter Motor Article previously published here:

Here's my Starter write-up.

Pull the starter. Clean the heck out of it.

After you get it on the bench ...

Two long screws hold BOTH indexed ends to the main body.

Remove the gear end and COMPLETELY clean and re-lube that end.
You'll need to spread one Circlip to get the Planet Main Shaft out.
Keep track of washers and spacers.
Look on the ends of the shaft and inside the housing for thin Thrust Washers that like to stay stuck where they are.

Keep everything in order as you disassemble the Planet end.
Two small Planet Gears on opposed shafts.
The Ring Gear and Main Shaft.
Every Spacer and Thrust Washer.

Clean the "Whole-works" of the "Business-end." All of it so nice and clean a Marine Drill Instructor would have the Company check-out yours as good example.

Check for washers and thrust washers hiding on shafts and bearing ports.

Clean the Electric end; too.

Pull the Case away from the Motor -- slowly.
There's NO slack in the wire connecting the Brushes to the External Power Post.
Slip the Brushes off the Commutator.
Look for a Thrust washer - inside the Case - surrounding the port for the case bearing bushing.

With the starter exploded. Clean.
Use straight Isopropyl Alcohol loaded into a sprayer that has the Stream or Spray option.
("Honey, did you see the Windex. I can't seem to find it.")

Withdraw the Armature.
Spray everything until its completely clean and what you are spraying ON is as clean as what is dripping OFF!

Shoot the Commutator, Brushes, Brush Housing, Electrical Lead and the inside of the Electric end Case. Clean.

Shoot WD-40 on the CLEAN windings and magnets.

Lube the whole-works as you reassemble the Starter.

Using Top Quality Synthetic Waterproof Grease:
Everything and every surface on the Planet - Business End - gets lubed as it's reassembled.
Shafts, shaft bushing ID's, washers, spacers, gears, pivots, bushings, etc.
Grease everything. Either liberally -- for function, or smeared-on for both rotational forces on it ... or, to hold it from slipping as you reinsert bearing shafts into bushed port on the case.

Spin the Planet Shaft after its re-clipped in and grease the rotating Planet Gears -- "On the Fly" ... as they rotate around the inside of the Ring Gear.

Lightly smear washers and spacers on the Electric End ... but, don't allow the grease to contaminate electric connections and Commutator.

Get a dab of grease into the port on the Electric end; and smear the end of the shaft which fits there.

Now, the fun and games of getting the Brushes lifted onto the Commutator and everything lined-up and back together begin.

It's like a Chinese Puzzle.

Only ... "Made in Japan" !

 

The solenoid came in today, $21 from local dealer.

Took about 20 minutes, 15 of which was replacing the old rubber holder. New solenoid is about 1/2 the size of the old one.

She catches first time, every time. I wish all problems were this simple and cheap to fix.

Thanks to all for the help!

 

Good for you.
Glad it was that simple a fix.

Don't throw-away the Old Solenoid. We have Members who like to open them and see if they are salvageable..