Installing cylinder head and camshafts '82 RJ Seca

Finally got round to rebuilding top end of engine, after repairing exhaust stud bosses, and replacing studs.
I'm at Haynes, page 108, Section 48, Part 2, trying to get top dead centre (T-mark in line)
Trouble is, when I hold the chain 'reasonably taught', and turn the crankshaft, the chain moves (so it is engaged with the sprocket below?) but will not turn enough, to get in line with the top dead centre marker, the crank locks at either 4 O'clock (clockwise), or 11 o'clock anticlockwise? Needs to be about 3 o'clock (see pic)
Is it that, I have to wait until I've installed the cams, and the chain tensioner, before I can get Top dead centre, or is there something I have done wrong......?
Please see pics, and any advice appreciated.
Regs.
D. Grantham

 

Sounds like chain has an extra link stuck below the crank
It won't rotate all the way around in either direction?

 

No, it will get round to 'C' mark, anti-clockwise, and about an inch away from the indicator, clockwise.
Regs.

 

Did you remove the cam chain tensioner?

 

Yes, took that out when I stripped it down. Not supposed to install until cams are on?
I think maybe when I put the front chain guide in, it pushed some link down under the sprocket?

 

I meant the cam chain tensioner adjuster, Abide. The cam chain tensioner itself (at the back), I never removed.
Regs.

 

The chain runs freely, if I pull either end, and I can make it 'bite' onto sprocket, by pulling up both sides vertically, so I don't think it's bunched up?
Just took front guide out, and going to try pulling up, making it engage with sprocket, and reinstall front guide.......

 

I've tied the chain up at two points to simulate it going over the two cam sprocket and the centre guide, and it is not slipping if I pull up either side, so it must be engaged with the crankshaft sprocket?.............now going to slowly try and get 'T' aligned, by using the flats........

 

Just tried that, and the chain is running round the two tied up bits fine, both ways, but crank still stops dead at the two points mentioned earlier - 'C' dead centre if I turn it clockwise, and about an inch below 'T' dead centre, if I turn it anticlockwise (see pics)
Is this how it is supposed to be, until the camshafts and sprockets and cam chain adjuster are installed - then you can get 'T' dead centre?
Regs.

 

Just realised, I've got an automatic chain tensioner. At the end of Haynes for installing cams etc, it says if you have an automatic chain tensioner, you set shaft to 'C', install the tensioner, then set crank back to 'T'!!
As I can get 'C', at the moment, I assume I can put the cams on and go ahead....?
By the way, what has become of bigFitz? Not seen him on this site, since I revisited, after a year or so....Hope he is alright - and still with us?
Regs.

 

He's had some things come up that have taken a big amount of his time. I hear from him occasionally ......

 

Ok
Thank's 'fiddles
Regards

 

The cam chain tensioner goes on AFTER the cams are in place. Not before.

 

Yes, Abide. I am going to install cams, locate 'C', (as it says in Haynes for AUTOMATIC chain tensioner), then try and locate 'T'. The issue is, I cannot locate 'T', at the point I am at present? (maybe it's because can't locate 'T', at point 47(2), in Haynes until AUTO chain tensioner is installed, after camshafts in place, as opposed to MANUAL ones?)

The reason I believe the chain is not bunching, (and therefore limiting the crank's revolution limit) is because if it is disengaged from the crank socket, it will pull round and round indefinitely. It is only when the chain is engaged with the sprocket (as I have it now in pics), that the crank revolution is limited either way - ie locating 'T'. (it might not be pulled up taught enough?)
I have some recollection, from a few years ago, when I was doing the valve shim clearances, that in the middle of this process, I could not locate 'T' then either(?). But when I had completed this process, and refitted the camshaft cover, (and tensioner?), the whole lot worked fine....?

Does this ring any bells, with anyone else who has '81-82 RJ Seca, non-YICS, fitted with an AUTOMATIC chain tensioner please?

Regs.

 

Need some help here. I have built the engine back up to cam and sprocket level, (and lined up the points on camshaft with the camcaps marks) but can't turn the crankshaft more than 45 degrees either way without it coming to a stop. ~Sounds like a piston against a valve? (I could get it to the 'C' mark, before I installed the camshafts and sprockets and chain) The chain seems taught and ok, and is moving round the sprockets fine. Got one bolt on either cam sprocket.
Anyone know what is causing this PLEASE!

 

The crank should spin 360 degrees without the cams installed. If it does not then you should address that first. Installing the cams without being able to line the timing marker up correctly can cause the piston and valve to interfere and bend a valve. Installing the cams correctly requires you to turn the crank more than one full revolution. I've never bent one on this engine but I've read a couple threads where people have and it was almost effortless to bend one.

When you say it stops 45 degrees each way, is it a hard stop (thunk) or just tight to move? Is the bike in gear? Starter clutch hung up? Just throwing some ideas out.

 

Thanks Jay, for your reply...

Yes, it stops with a thud. Thought it might be the starter clutch stuck, (which it sometimes does!), so selected high low torque gear, and rocked it steady (it wasn't in gear either), but same result. Only turned gently on crank open spanner etc. Didn't try to 'force' it. Hope I haven't bent a valve, but I was getting 'C', before I installed the cams, and cam tensioner adjuster, and now can't get 'C', or 'T'. As I say, I can only turn it to the points in the photos, either clockwise, or anticlockwise, before it stops dead.
Has there ever been a case where the rear chain tensioner blade is pushed in too deep, and affects the revolution? It kept getting 'caught', on the bottom of the cylinder head, when I was trying to reinstall it, (not coming up throught the tunnel) so may have been pushed in too deep(?) I never took the rear chain tensioner blade out anyway - don't think I was instructed to by the book....?
I have done everything to the (Haynes) book, dismantling, and rebuilding, and as I said previously, the chain seems just right (taughtness, length etc.), so I am under the impression, that is not causing bunched up somewhere and causing the blockage.
Do I need to strip it down again, disengage the chain off the crankshaft, and see if I get full revolution then, and start again?
All contributions greatly received....!!
Regards
Dale Grantham

 

Good, don't do that.

Unfortunately I think this is your only course of action, I cannot think of any reason why it would only rotate 45 degrees or so with a dead stop in the same position. Any chance something dropped in a cylinder when the head was going back on? Drop anything in the cam chain tunnel that might be jamming between the crank and engine case?

You definitely want to sort this out before going any further.

 

Looking at your pics I think I see the problem. It looks to me like you're using on of the pickup coils to set the timing marks, instead of using the timing pointer.

Regardless; remove the cams, and double check #1 piston is at TDC by placing a pencil or dowell in the spark plug hole. Look at it as it moves and you'll find the true TDC. Then you can compare the timing mark with the pointer to ensure that the pointer is true.

Your timing plate will look like this when the piston is at TDC (note the pointer in the 2:00 position and the T on the timing plate).



Only then can you begin putting the cams in.

 

Thank you both.

No, k-moe, I'm not using the pick up coils as the timing marker. I know it's position is at 2 o' clock. I could get 'C' at the timing marker (before put cams on), but not 'T' (an inch away, at 1 o'clock) Now with cams on, can only move crank about 45 degrees, between 4 o'clock, and eight o'clock, (the 'T' mark) before it stops with a 'clunk' (metallic sound?) Thank You for the tip about using the pencil by the way

I don't recollect anything falling down the crevasse(!), when dismantling, or rebuilding, but hey-ho I'm going to take the head off again, disconnect the chain, and dangle an extendable magnet around in there, to see what might connect to it, and fish it out (hopefully)!

If this fails, I will probably have to take the next block down off next(?) and see exactly what's wrong? (I'll get back to you before I go to that extreme)

Regards.

 

I've just removed the cams and sprockets, and front chain guide. I can now get movement of 'C' mark (and 'T' mark, obviously) of 270 degrees. (6 O'clock, clockwise, to 3 o'clock - 'C' mark), before it comes to a stop, and won't move any further. (the same back the other way - 'C' mark comes to a stop at 6 0' clock dead.)

T mark moves from 5pm to about 2pm (clockwise, and vice-versa anti clockwise)
My indicator mark is set at about 3 0'clock (see last pics)

Should it really have to move through a WHOLE 360 degrees? And once you've reached 360 degrees only, should it come to a stop? (and only move back in the opposite direction?)

The indicator mark is adjustable (says in Haynes with work on cams/shims over period of time TDC may move, that's why the indicator is adjustable?)

My indicator mark is set at about 3pm, whereas yours (k-moe), like you say, is set at 2pm. (I have got space on the slider, I think to move the indicator back up to about 2 o'clock?)

Haven't taken the head off yet, and can't see down into the gap cos of tied up coils and cables.

Any thoughts now this new evidence is forthcoming...?

 

Your crank should always be able to spin without stopping, cams or no cams in there. If the cams are out, the chain pulled snug and it still won't make full revolution then you have something preventing it from doing so that needs to be remedied. Are the spark plugs out? If so, it should be fairly easy to spin the crank over and over.

Do not move the indicator. They are set at the factory, the tan "paint" you see on the screw is to prevent someone from moving it.

 

Totally agree, you can't install the cams until you verify "T" is TDC, and then can appropriately set valve timing with the marks on the cam aligned with "T".

Look closely at the valve shims and buckets to make sure a valve is not stuck open. If the exhaust and carbs are off you can also look in there for an open valve, although it should be obvious just looking up at the top side to see of a valve is not fully closed.

Look through the spark plug holes also if the valves appear to be fully closed, maybe try a magnet through the spark plug hole to look for a foreign object.

 

Ok Thanks for that. Won't touch the indicator.
Spark plugs are off.
I'll take the head off and have a closer look down the cam chain cavity.
Thank You

 

Thanks for that also Rooster. Will take that on board, and try everything you advise.
Regards.

 

Is the transmission in neutral?

 

Yes. Transmission in neutral.

 

If a valve is not fully closed, what do I do - manually close it somehow?

 

Unfortunately, if a valve is stuck it is likely from a bent stem, which will require removing the head and replacing the valve. And, maybe more as I am certainly not proficient at rebuilding these engines. Anyway, the picture below shows you where to look. This is from a 750 Seca, but the point of all the lifters should look virtually the same with the cams removed would still apply. Note the lifters should also spin freely with the cams out. If one of the valves is open, the lifter would be recessed within the head. If you do find one recessed, I suppose there might be a slight chance that the lifter / head is slight galled and could be corrected without removing the head.

Note: Shims have been removed from the below pic. Make sure all eight of yours are there.

 

Just lifted the cylinder head off, and a nice new shiny chrome 6mm dome nut is sitting on top of the #4 piston!
There you go - removed the offending article, put cylinder head back on and I can get 360 degrees crank turn, clock and anti-clock, and TOP DEAD CENTRE, to boot!
Get back to you tomorrow, when I've reinstalled the camshafts etc.
Thank You, for all your support, patience, and advice.
Regards.

 

Great you found the problem!

It makes me queazy to think of what would have happened if you tried starting it like that though... *Cringe* a nut? That's terrifying!

 

Talk about dodging a bullet......!

 

Put the cams and caps and chain and sprockets on today, by the book. Had an accident - using torque wrench to spec - sheared of a cam cover bolt. 19 of the 20 clicked in fine, then there was one........over #3 inlet valve (see pic)
Tried to fine drill out, (then use extractor) but not got hard enough drill bit (the bolts are hitensile steel?) - just wore the bit and bolt down a little.
Anyway, I was well x@$$£d off, but my friend said I might get away with just the three bolts holding, and the locating dowel where the fourth bolt was, and replace the bolt as soon as possible..........
So that's what I did -bolted everything up, got top dead centre, connected the battery .....pressed the starter button, and prayed............
It's turning over fine.
I'm as far as about to put valve cover back on, and exhaust system, and test....
I need to know this - when the bike is running on full power, will just the three bolts be enough to hold the cam and cap under pressure?
Has anyone ever had this happen, and tried the same short-term fix, and what were the results please?

 

Get thee to a machine shop. You do NOT want to run the cam with a cap that isn't properly secured. The cam flexes as it runs, and if it's not supported properly the camshaft will eventually fail. Of course with the cap loose on one side there won't be a proper oil wedge on that bearing, so the bearing will probably fail first (I'd guess within 2,000 miles or so).

 

Normally those bolts will screw in with just finger pressure, so if yours was like that the broken bolt should easily screw out with a metal pick / sharp tweezer or such as it would not be seized in any way. I would at least give that a try, but resist the temptation of doing something that will make the machinist job even harder, or worse unsalvageable. Clean the area with a shop vac first, you don't want a bit of metal preventing success.

If it was a bit resistive going in, then +1 for k-moe's suggestion.

 

IF you can afford a set of left-handed dill bits, and know how to use a center punch to get the drill on center, and know when to stop before you make things worse, you should try that first.

 

Tried the 'pick it out' method first-off, but no way. Only then did I try to drill 1/2 diameter central tunnel (after using quality centre punch), but as I said earlier, the drill bit was not hard enough. I've removed the metal drill shavings with magnet, and hoover. Sent for quality drill bit (German-made), so that should enable me to drill central hole and 'know when to stop before you make things worse, you should try that first'. get an extractor in, to remove.

Going ahead with installing exhaust system, putting valve cover back on with 'temporary' instant gasket, and testing at first in idle up to temperature, until I get the drill bit (Wed), when I can attempt the fix. (only the valve cover has to come off, for me to do this)

Thank You, and I'll report back later..........

 

Best not to. The worst thing that can happen is the extractor breaks off. This is why I recommended a left-handed drill bit. The lefty will usually grab the fastener and back it out.
If you go that route soak the stub for a week in Kroil (or a 50/50 mix of ATF and acetone). Go slow and watch the extractor closely. If it even begins to slightly deflect (twist along its body) then stop, because it's about to break. Removing a broken exractor is a royal PITA.

Keep in mind the risk of doing the job yourself. Weigh the $50 for a machine shop to remove the broken bolt against the ~$300 for a replacement head and gaskets.

 

Hi again!

I've sent for a left-hand 3mm hard steel drill bit k-moe. Haven't tried anything with it yet (the sheared off bolt)

Meanwhile........went for a steady 6 mile run yesterday, and when I returned home, smoking from surface front of engine where oil had started to burn after it had trickled out from cylinder head gasket seam. (when got up to temperature) It's a very, very small amount, and sight screen oil guage had not altered, as far as I could imagine.

Also, today took it for 6 mile run to local shop, and did the same again (very small amount, and a little trickle down back of front fender, like it had spat a bit out).....
This time though, when I got down into 1st gear, to engage a 50-yard steep incline into the shop carpark, the engine struggled to cope, until I gave it a good rev, and then responded to get into the 'park. (a little smoke again, but not a lot of oil seepage)

I took it easy on the way home, and after I'd parked up, put on centre stand and looked at sightguage again (after cooling)......
Guage had gone down about 2mm.
Decided to check whether cylinder head nuts needed nipping down a touch.....no, each clicked after I had set to the specific 23.1 ft/lb (Haynes) on the torque wrench......
So, I did a compression test, and each cylinder was just under (or just over) 150psi (it only quotes for UK models in Haynes, - mine is USA model?), so I'm assuming the compression is within spec (if USA is same as UK compression?)

That said, it seems like the gasket is failing, and I am losing a bit of compression, as I lose the oil......? (it is quite responsive, until it reaches temperature)
When I put the new gasket on (the one with a 'blue line' round the chain guide 'pit') I was told in my earlier thread not to include the cam chain tunnel seal, as 'I would have problems' - 'the blue line on the gasket, does the job, of the former cam chain tunnel seal', so I understandably, omitted it..........

Having said that, could the head be warped, (I don't think so - haven't done anything as far as I am aware to cause it to..it did stick for a couple of minutes, when I was stuck at lights, and first noticed the smoke, on 3000rpm, just before I got home, when I turned the idle knob down).......and could I 'nip up the torque a little over the 'specified' amount to remedy this problem......?

Maybe the gasket has blown......?

Your thoughts please, before I try anything...........!?

 

Let me see if I understand.
You are running an engine with a cam cap bolt that is still sheared off?

 

Reminds me of a Molly Hatchet song.

 

Hah, had never heard of em, but that does seem quite apt

 

Lemme guess, you're going to say this isn't a good idea?

 

Whether it's a good idea, or not, depends on what the goal is.

 

ps. I wouldn't have thought the gasket had blown, because surely I wouldn't be able to travel, or start even all those miles etc.
and, the compression test would have revealed a really low reading, surely......
After I had done the compression test, and was replacing the spark plugs, I noticed that the plugs, on the #s 2, and 3 needed a bit of an extra turn, to tighten...? (and the leak, I think, is confined to the very central front 5-6", of the cylinder head gasket - nowhere else)
Hope this helps........not tested since I did this..........
Regs.

 

I was told the cap would last 2000 miles, before the 'oil wedge' would fail. I was only taking it out to test everything was ok, now I had rebuilt it, and was then going to leave it, 'til I had replaced the sheared off bolt.
Has anyone got any ideas, or do they just want to talk about Molly Pratchett songs, and take the piss out of me!

 

have you thought about what will happen if that cam shaft fails?
2000 miles is a nice number but so is 200 or 20

 

So.............surely the sheared off camcap bolt is not the cause of the leak? Or.......is it that the integrated 'blue-line' gasket camshaft seal is not as thickness and width as the original one (and the head needs tightening down a tiny bit more, above original Haynes spec), so that compensates, and stops the oil (and compression (?), at temperature) leak? Or do I need an original 'basic' gasket, and add the original tunnel seal?

Do I have to add 'gasket seal' to the cylinder head, before installing gasket and head? (there was evidence of some, when I removed)

Yes, I have thought about what would happen, if that cam shaft failed, but it is being held by two other caps, at 100% bolts torqued to spec, and 75% of the bolts in place torqued down to spec. on the cap itself. I didn't expect to do a tour of GB - I only wanted to test that the head, and head cover was oil tight, (the head cover, with cams underneath, is oil tight, by the way), by doing a short 5-mile run at no more than 50mph. I had already done vac sync, at idle temperature, and let tick over for 20 mins or so. (for the gasket to seal?)

• It is leaking at the front (and possibly, slightly at right side, if that has not been blown round by wind in motion) of the head seal, not the valve cover seal at all.

Is it ok, to nip down the head nuts (ok, only say, increment of 1 ft./lb), and just get up to temp. and check for very short run then.....? (I am well aware of the dangers of shearing a head nut off, and it's consequences!) Adding an extra washer would give more thread room(?)

When I originally removed the cylinder head, there was an extra washer under the #2 inner rear dome nut, but I did not replace that on re-installation? (I thought it may have been added in error originally....?)
Should I reinstall it?

• I have got perfect timing at temperature on idling, and when stopped after in motion (altho' revs drop low, probably from leak)
• When did vac sync (at temperature), all dials synonymous - did not have to adjust anything
• The compression test, proved in spec. (après evidence of leakage)

I apologise, for my knee -jerk reactions to the crass contributions made earlier - I had just got up, and did not expect such behaviour from peers on this site.

Regs.

 

Just found out the reason, (I think)
Oil and pressure from valve, probably, (and some exhaust gas) escaping from side of #2 exhaust stud boss repair. The more the engine is under load/pressure, the more escapes...(acceleration, low gear, high revs)

This has occurred because I didn't identify the full extent of the repair, having removed the old 'tap', stuck in there.....it had created a hole I imagine through the boss, into the exhaust passage internal area (where it leaves the cylinder head, at the base?)

Have to clean up the area with petrol, dry, and endeavour to build up a more robust repair with the metal putty, whilst head still attached (where I used it on #3 cylinder stud boss, is still sound)

If that fails, have to take the cylinder head off again to inspect, and access a better repair.

Where you can see red sealant, is where I thought the initial leak was from (in hindsight, this was Vaseline melting, from where I had replaced the old sheared off outer bottom stud, and had applied for easier installation)
Regs.

 

Used a left-handed 3mm drill bit, and the sheared off bolt was out. Replaced the bolt with a brand new stainless steel one, and torqued down to right spec (7.1 ft/lb)
Still got blue smoke around #2 exhaust port area, at temperature. Sent for 2000 degree stainless steel putty, from 'Cotronics Ltd.' and when arrives will take cylinder head off again, reinforce the repair I did, (or completely redo it) and see what is causing the leakage (the gasket may be failing because I did not put the TWO washers, on the rear inner right stud, under the nut?) I'll soon see what the problem is when I remove the head.
Later.........
Regs.