Have to use Instant Start

Okay While we are the subject of having a hard time starting. I have a '82 xj550 that I have problems with. The only way I can get it started is to spray some Instant Start in it. It doesn't matter what the outside temp is hot cold whatever it just won't start.

The guy who owned it before me had let it set for a couple years outside without a cover on it! So I had to tear the carbs apart and clean them. This is probably my main problem because I don't know how to sync them nor do I have the tools.

I also changed the oil, spark plug. air filter. And cleaned out the gas tank to get rid of any crap inside. I also had to repair some of the wiring.

I'm not complaining too much though when I can get it started it runs really gooooooood, besides I got a really good deal on it.

Any suggestions on what I should do?

 

Welcome!

Glad to hear you got into those carbs... bet they were pretty rough. Sometimes folks will use regular automotive carb cleaner, but that's bad news on bike carbs filled with rubber bits. The carb cleaner eats the rubber and then you've got a whole new set of problems.

Really, a carb balance should be a priority. The vacuum gauges aren't too expensive (mercury gauges run around $50-$75). If yours is a YICS bike, you'll also need a special tool that blocks the common passages in the engine that run between the cylinders and serve to create a turbulent air/fuel mixture in the combustion chamber. Unless you have a YICS tool in there, balancing is impossible. Mike Oberle made a bunch of them a few years ago, maybe someone else around here knows how to contact him? Your local Yamaha dealer might be able to scrounge one up, but it won't be cheap.

Other regular maintenance will include checking your valve clearances. I'm not the best one to comment on how to do it as the Haynes manual only says "measure the valve clearances" but gives no clue on how or with what.

One other thing that should get attention (although you never hear about it) is your wheel bearings and swingarm pivot. If the bike has been sitting outside as you say, the bearings will, at the very least, need greasing.

Best of luck!
GG

 

Look in the links section, theres a link to adjusting your valves.
I'd also look into the XJCD. lots of good stuff.

 

I also have an XJ550 and starting was one of my headaches. Did a carb resync all with homemade tools. Runs sweet but starting was still a problem.

My cure came in the form of new starter brushes. If they get too worn then they draw too much power and don't leave enough for the electrical system to provide a decent spark.

This is usually evident if the bike fires as you are taking your finger off the starter button.

I'd reccomend pulling the starter off and at least cleaning it all up to see if that helps. Had to clean mine a few times(weekly) before I could locate suitable parts so had it down to about 30 mins to strip and reassemble.

Go easy on that easy start. Too much is not good for the engine. They come to rely on it.
Cheers
HG

 

I never even thought of the brushs but that would make sence since most of the electrical stuff I had to repair was do to corosion.
I can bump start iit I have a long steep hill. It takes a few time but eventually it does.
I do have a YCIS motor so I guess I'll have to learn how to sync the carbs. I can't remember where I saw it but I did see how to build one of those tools.
I'll try some of those things and let you all know how I make out.
With the way the weather has been here in New York I'm starting to come down with spring fever. Yes I know it's still January but hey it's 55 degrees out right now!

Thanks for all the help.

 

Link to homemade YICS tool.

http://www.xs11.com/tips/norm/yics.htm

Pic link is broken but the pic is here http://www.xs11.com/tips/norm/yics.gif

I made one and it worked a treat.

Also made a manometer (carb sync tool) for about $7 that works perfectly. Uses oil which is supposedly more accurate than mercury.

 

Dragged out a pic of my manometer for those who may be interested.

Simply made from
four equal lengths of clear tube
A four way connector from the hardware reticulation section
cable ties
four short pieces of vacuum hose(for connecting to the carbs)
Piece of Aluminum lying around my shed.

I used transmission oil in the tubes as it has a thinner(more sensitive) viscosity.

Tip for filling with oil. Leave one tube off the connector at the bottom. put a short piece of tube on this into a container of oil. connect the other three hoses to the bikes carbs and start it up. The vacuum will slowly suck oil into the other three tubes. When the oil is at a decent level shut off the bike and remove the short piece and replace with the fourth tube.
Leave for ten minutes and it will find it's own level as the fourth tube is filled by the three others.

Connect fourth tube to bike and sync away.


Cheers
HG

 

That's a pretty neet trick there Goon. 8) I'll have to give that a try once I get to the point where I can get my bike started. Thanks for posting that.

 

I'll have to try that too.. Great idea!

Since there's no official spec for the carb vacuum, you dont have to calibrate or scale it. You dont need to know what the carbs are pulling, just that they're all pulling the same vacuum.

 

If there was ever a need for a thread sticky this would be it. Solved my starting problems right away. BRUSHES ORDERED!!

Thanks Goon!!

 

wow theres some great info in this thread. I got to remember it for when i finally get my bike running

 

this is probably a dumb quetion, but how do you conect the sync tube to the carbs?

 

You should have a small pipe rising up from atop the intake manifold with a rubber cap secured with a clamp. Simply remove the clamp, pull the cap and slide the sync tubes over the pipe.

 

Connect to the inlet manifold(carb boots) between the carb and the cylinder head. Each one has a small brass tube with a rubber cap over it. Remove the cap and hook the manometer tubes directly to the brass tubes.

On a 550 carb number 2 has a vacuum line between the boot and petcock. Remove the tube and run the tank on PRI if syncing using the tank.

650/750's have the vacuum on #3 I think.

 

With your home made manometer did you put a pin hole in the tubes to eliminate pulses?
I was told that you have to do this.

Any comments?

 

Awesome thank you guys... I think I am going to buy some mercury carb sticks off eBay if they ever come up on there... I’ve found them on various websites... but nothing quite in my price range...

 

No pin holes. That would allow a vacuum leak to atmosphere. The fluctuations are only minor and are easily compensated for when syncing.

I have heard of people adding another T join in each tube and connecting it to an empty coke bottle, but you would need four bottles and that starts to become bulky. The idea behind the bottle is it is a larger volume and "absorbs" most of the fluctuations in air pressure within the tubes.


No pictures sorry Sno, but I will be syncing the XS this weekend so if I remember I will take some pics of that process. Similar bike and fittings so should be useful.


Cheers
HG

 

I'll try to get some pics this weekend, Bruin is stopping by to pick up where we left off two weeks ago. Going to break in the new Colortune, clean up the front brake system, and play with the electrical systems.

 

here is a pic... strait off my xj550 bike

 

If you don't add a seal between the big washer and the head the #1 or #4 carb will be leaking to atmosphere and be very rich when you pull the tool out and put the plug back in.

 

hi fellows i thought id try and see if i could make one of these been under the weather for a few weeks here.
i thought inderstood what goon was saying about making this manometer
but then i looked at the pic and all i can see is 2 clear tubes with tranny fluid in them wheres the fitiings and vacuum hoses go that you talk about ? i even copied the pic to a folder and tried blowing them up to no avail . it looks to me like 2 pieces of clear hose atached to somthing long bent in a u shape.? how would that work then ? just atach a tube between carb 1 and 2 and then the other between 3-4 and ajust till their eqaul ?if so then why do you need these fittings and seperate vacuum hose ?couldnt you just use the 2 of the same size hoses that goes from petcock to vacuum on carb 3( (on xj750) one for 1-2 and one for 3-4 ? goon do you have a better pic of this ? i dont understand it sorry for asking stupid questions .

thanks james

 

As I understand the device (I used mercury sticks, should be the same) the tubes that are attached to the top of the clear tubes would be fitted to the intake nipple on the manifold. You should make up two of these assemblies if you have enough material so you can look at all four cylinders simultainiously. Otherwise, your hopping back and forth between cylinders. Hope this is helpful.

 

Men:

You make-up 4 Inline Vacuum Buffers.

You buy the Plastic Union pieces that you use to connect two lengths of hose.
A UNION or splice-piece or whatever you call them. Union I guess?

You cut a Carb Cleaner Red Tube in half and run it completely through that Union.
Fill Union with Epoxy Resin.
It hardens-up leaving you with a Red Tube glued solid through the middle of a plastic hose union.
Razor blade time.
Trim both ends flush.
Make 4.
Place one of these 4 "Reducers" in each line coming-off the Carb Intake hook-up's.

This is going to seriously help settle-down the the Columns of Mercury, some ... making it easier and safer to take the Vacuum readings.

Absolutely necessary if you are checking the vacuum using a pneumatic-type vacuum gauge.

Dat iz zum Ole Skool shid ... rite dere.
Who's tightened-up wid dat???

 

Not stupid, I know the pic was not the best. Will try and get a better pic of top and bottom when I get home tonight.

Stay tuned.

HG

 

thank you rick again for all your help i think all will agree your the "man"
when people need a question answered you always know whats up.
and im down wit da vachizle on my nizelle on the televizlle --------- homeboyeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and thank you goon for repling and help also yea if you have another pic id realy like to see what you did on it.


thanks guys i apreciate all your help.

james

 

Got there at last, sorry it took longer. went away for the weekend and didn't get around to it.

So, here is a better pic. Basically very simple. I use a very small tube so the ID doesn't hold much fluid. The black bits on the ends on the left simply have the clear tube forced into normal vacuum tube. These just go onto the vacuum nipples on the carb boots.

 

Nicely done goon!

Thats certainly a better design than mine... I ended up having a lot more parts than that.

Very intuitive.

 

Here's a link to the YICS tool with picture.

http://home.westman.wave.ca/~jbe/YICS.htm

 

A very clever idea.

That looks like it's just aquarium airline tube? Can you give an idea of how long each tube is?

 

"Hey, Rocky?"

"Yes, BullWinkle."

"Wanna see me pull a manometer audda my hat?"
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .

(Meanwhile, outside of Silver City's Discount Tropical Fish Supplies for Money Squandering Fools with a Propensity to Overdo Everything and Buy Stuff They'll Just Be Throwing Away Shortly Regardless Of Much Easer Ways To Do Something With Far Less Vinyl Hose ... danger lurks in the shadows)
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .

"Na-ta-ja. Zay hab maid mann-oh-meader from juzz zum stuve you use for da feegez dank."

"Bore-eaze. Vee muzz quick zend peege-jures back to Fearless Leader."

"No, Na-ta-ja. Virst vee keel Mooze und Ska-virle."

 

I want to add my starting woes to the list.

I got no start in the morning. But anytime else in the day it fires right up, immediately. Hot day, cold day doesn't matter.

I do keep the bike covered at night to help prevent condensation build up.

I don't have time to diagnose it in the morning though because I'm usually late for work and I start to see the neighbors poking there heads out the window wondering what all the noise is.

It just cranks and cranks

 

Is it time specific, or just the first start of the day?

If it's the first start of the day it could very likely be low battery power, which could be caused by corrosion in the electrical system, poor alternator performance, or a bad battery.

Everything gets to draw it's power before the ignition, so it can crank without having much spark. Once it runs for a bit everything is warm and turning easier so it takes less power to turn over, leaving more power for the ignition for further starts that day.

Mine usually behaves that way for the first start of the season, a jump gets it going right away.

 

no its time specific.

If I don't ride it for say 3 days, it will start right up as long as its after approx 9:30 in the morning.

I personally think that its condensation on the ignition some where. I don't know how to prevent it without replacing expensive parts.

It didn't start this morning, but when I get home after work it will start right up.

 

Perhaps you can use something to displace moisture in suspect areas, such as WD-40?

Or else tell the boss that you have a good reason for him to let you sleep in later before coming to work.

 

That manometer ... in the photo ... is designed to attempt to defy the Laws of Physics.

There needs to be a "Plugged-in 5th Line" ... either drawing from a common reservoir, open to atmosphere ... or, filled and, not hooked-up to vacuum. to prevent the 4-Line only from collapsing-in on itself and/or displaying an inaccurate reading as it ... "Robs from Peter to Pay Paul"

Stick a T in one of the lines at the Bottom ... add another line ... and let the vacuum pull-up some fliud ... rather than just trying to evacuate the 4-tubes of any air within!

 

I had to use Instant Start when I first bought my XJ. One new battery latter I never needed the IS again.

 

Sorry Rick, 100% incorrect. The laws of physics are spot on with this manometer.

To have a fifth line would be disaster. If it was open to anything it would just draw air into the system. If the fifth line was in a bottle of oil then it would suck oil into all four carbs.

It has to be closed. Remember this is working with pure vacuum, not a weighted to atmosphere system.

Robbing from peter to pay paul is the exact principle to get the carbs EXACTLY right.

If one tube of oil is higher then it may have a vacuum of 2 millibar more then the other three. when adjusting, we are equalising the vaccum to be exactly the same by bringing that down 1 millibar and the other three up 1 millibar.

When they all pull the same then perfection is complete.

Now consider the differences that can be had with a carbtune type system.
It uses four bars of metal equally weighted and uses the vacuum rushing past it to set it's level. Great principle.

Now take into consideration if the unit has been used/abused a fair bit. Wear and tear on the weights can alter the precise weight of each bar. Vibration and wear can alter the internal diameter of the tube that the weight slides up and down in. Friction does do damage.

Thus if one tube is worn by 1/1000th of a mm or the weight has a 1/1000th of a gram chip of it, then it will let more vacuum past it and the weight will go a little higher because it's lighter.

Your a man who loves perfection Rick. Spend the 5 bucks and build one. Not only will you better understand the principle behind it, but you'll probably never go back.

Cheers
HG

 

You KNOW I will.
You know I'll test the results and compare the accuracy to:

One Guage.
Mercury.
Straight Bench.

I'm all over it.
Well ... close.
Maybe when the leaves turn Red and Fall arrives and we don't have Indian Summer or an exceptionally mild Winter.

But ... I've already got both of our critiques saved ... so, it will be fun to revisit this after I go to the Aquarium Department in the Pet Supply Store and ask them or 50-feet of Vinyl Hose!

 

Hey All,
As I've also had some starting issues, I'd encourage any of you all to clean your connections in the fuse box (or actually replace the darn thing all together) and clean/replace the plug caps. After replacing the battery, rebuilding the starter, replacing the coils, and resyncing and cleaning the carb, I got clued in the the awesome wonder of ELECTRICAL RESISTANCE (resistance, resistance, resistance).

It made a world of difference.

electrical issues
There's a great link to an electrical FAQ that anyone with a bike older than 10 years should read.

 

It's doubtful (but certainly conceivable) that anyone will every change the weight of one of the sliding rods inside a carbtune. They're stainless steel, and spring loaded, and don't come into contact with anything besides the ID of the plastic tubes!

The tubes themselves could get worn over time and need replacing...and carbtunes are, by design, rebuildable. But for the limited amount of use that any individual owner is going to see with a synch tool, the probability of gauge inaccuracies due to normal wear-and-tear is so small as to be safely ignored. If it's in shop environment, and the tool is being used 20 times a month, and handled roughly, then yes.....the tool will need rebuilding (as by design) occassionally.

I think getting the relative cylinder vacuum draws all set equally to the 4th decimal place is pretty much an impossibility. The vacuum pulses by themselves insure that, not to mention parallax effects, etc. when viewing the scale.

But probably the biggest issue of all is that people try to synch their carbs before they do all the necessary, preliminary steps first: check and adjust valve clearances (almost NO ONE DOES THAT) and make sure that the throttle shaft seals, carb intake manifolds, and intake manifold gaskets are top-shelf before even attempting to synch.

And how many people still believe that you don't have to use a YICS port-blanking tool to properly synch a YICS-engine?

But that mamometer shown in this thread IS pretty crafty and neat!

 

Hey Hired_Goon,

Did you get my PM on the manometer?

Cheers,

Phil

 

I think you'd have to use the Stainless Steel weighted Manometer to Sync every Members Bike ... twice, before any appreciable change in its accuracy would be noted.

I think we need a Kit ... with a CarbTune, a ColorTune and a YICS Tool in a real, "Can-take-a-beating" Travel Case for shipping to Members needing the Kit to tune-up their Bikes.

 

hi folks this is my first post so here goes got myself a good clean 1981 xj550 started on the button had a small problem with restarting from hot but managed to overcome this (guy i brought it from said the carbs had been cleaned and balanced) found out after a few weeks that if i didnt start it for a few days it was a pig to start no biggy i just started it a couple of times a week till now, i left it for four days now it will not start at all i have good compressions fuel is there and a spark
it does however seem two plugs are getting wet and two are not i fitted new plugs and have removed checked and recleaned the carbs it does however backfire now when trying to start but makes no attempt to fire HELP please

 

If as you say, the Carbs are all Cleaned and working well ... you may have to adjust your Pilot Mixtures to get the Lowe-end Mixtures from being too Rich and wetting those two Plugs.

The best method is to use a Colortune Plug so you can actually monitor whats happening inside those Combustion Chambers as you make the adjustment.

Keep in mind ... the Pilot Mixture Screws are ULTRA Fine threaded. So the optimum Air~Fuel Mixture might be within the width of a Nickel or a Dime from where you are at.

 

I'm going to have a look at the starter tonight. I have had very hard starting problems on the bike I have now, despite changing most of the components out at one point or another, but the starter's never been looked at.

I wonder if anyone can tell me, when you are trying to start your bike and you put your hand over the air intake side of the carb, you'll feel suction. Any diagnosis for a carb in which you DON'T feel any or feel very little suction?

I honestly don't know if this is unhealthy for the bike. It seemed like a good idea at the time (as the bike sounded breathy or....windy? I guess). At the time I first did it, the bike turned over fairly quickly after. For a while, I could use this as a method to start the bike. Not anymore.

I know the reigning advice on these issues is CLEAN the CARBS!!! Trust me, even if you haven't read previous posts of mine, they are clean, clean, clean. I have done everything but disassemble the set, which I am not going to do, so don't try and make me.

I'm not out to play Stump the Community here either. If you have solved this hard start problem on your bike, I'd love to hear what you did.

 

Bad valves, very bad rings, cracked piston, broken or missing intake manifold for that carb, etc.!

Have you cleaned the starter jets in the carb bowls? Assuming your engine mechanicals are in good condition, and you are getting spark at the plugs, then clogged starter jets account for about 90% of the hard start problems on these bikes.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you're quickly reaching running out of options and reaching that point...... :cry:

 

If you aren't getting a good vacuum it could indicate any number of things.

Now, since you bring that up ... you might need to have a Compression Check.
We need to know the condition of your individual Cylinders and the Compression Tests numbers will give us a good indication.

The most likely causers for Low Manifold Vacuum are:
Rings
Valves
Head Gasket

 

So a compression test is in order, fair enough. I'll do some research on that, I'm sure there's a tool or two that I'll need to pick up.

I am fortunate enough that I have a parts bike here with an engine that has a head in great shape. This would not all suck so bad if it wasn't coming on spring here.

Thanks Chacal, I had cleaned the starter jets. I had very good advice from Rickomatic on the carbs, and providing I did everything right (no guarantees of that) the carbs are as clean as a whistle.

Further details: All the sparks are wet with gas when I pull them, even after only about 10 seconds on the starter. That is to say: turn the key, hold the button down for about 10 seconds.

Apparently I'm up for just about anything. I took my starter motor off last night! Because one of the bolts had busted in the bottom of the bike (where the gear shift lever enter's the bike) I pulled that plate off too. My oil needs changing, but that is not the way to go about it let me tell you. What a mess.

My starter motor is working much better after cleaning all the copper inside but no, it did not solve my problem.

All four sparks will light a spark plug tester.

Thanks for all your help guys, you have no idea how great it is to have the support! Or maybe you do, and that's why you're helping?