1. Some members were not receiving emails sent from XJbikes.com. For example: "Forgot your password?" function to reset your password would not send email to some members. I believe this has been resolved now. Please use "Contact Us" form (see page footer link) if you still have email issues. SnoSheriff

    Hello Guest. You have limited privileges and you can't "SEARCH" the forums. Please "Log In" or "Sign Up" for additional functionality. Click HERE to proceed.

Fork Seal Replacement questions.

Discussion in 'XJ Technical Chat' started by Oblivion, Apr 19, 2006.

  1. Oblivion

    Oblivion Active Member

    Messages:
    826
    Likes Received:
    139
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Northeast Illinois
    Among all the other issues my ol' girl is having (soon to be an all-new girl at this rate), I think one of the forks is leaking. I have the Haynes manual which is good for some things, but not for others. With regard to forks, it's good for confusing the hell out of me. Perhaps the XJCD covers forks, but as I haven't heard back from the US distributor (Brad?) yet, I won't have one anytime soon.

    Anyway, since I'm ordering brake parts, I was going to pick up a pair of fork seals from the OldBikeBarn.com. But 1) I don't know if that's all I need and 2) they don't list my '81 in the application list at all: http://www.oldbikebarn.com/motorcycle_p ... bike=XJ750

    Anyone have any guidance? I searched for other threads with 'fork seals,' and it seems I have to devise some kind of tool. Anything else I should prepare for?

    I feel like if I ever get this thing back on the road, it'll be time to winterize it. :cry:

    AtDhVaAnNkCsE
     
  2. Robert

    Robert Active Member

    Messages:
    7,479
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Ventura CA
    You should spend the cash for the factory seals, they are the best to my experience (I ran Rocky's once, only once). Do not for get to have the retaining clips ready to replace too, they are usually corroded beyond salvage (I upgraded to internal snap rings for about $1 a pop). You should also order up the dust caps/seals, they are heavily cracked and about worthless by this point. They are the first (and only) line of defence for your fork seals. I installed fork boots to cover everything, sourced them from a shock company, I'll post the brand name later, I'm getting ready to go to bed. The boots not only protect your seals, they also protect your slider tubes from stone chips (bonus!) for about $5 each which is a heck of a lot cheaper than replacement tubes (I've paid the price twice now, ouch). I also recommend packing the space between the fork seal and dust seal with good moly grease to help prevent water intrusion and keep the seal clips from corroding. Just got to remember to wipe it down the first few weeks so the grease doesn't melt down onto the brakes. My two cents worth.
     
  3. BlueMaxim

    BlueMaxim Active Member

    Messages:
    1,986
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Central Mississippi
    Robert is someone you should listen to. He nailed everything all of us have learned. Just do as he says! My only disagreement with him is that his 2cents worth is way underpriced.
     
  4. Oblivion

    Oblivion Active Member

    Messages:
    826
    Likes Received:
    139
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Northeast Illinois
    10-4 on the OEM parts. I need to pick up some oil anyway. I'm interested in the fork boots you're talking about so if you could come up w/ a link or picture, I'd appreciate it - no rush, though.

    So, should I expect my local Yamaha joint to be able to come up with the seals, dust caps, and the retaining clips?

    Thanks for the advice - that's exactly what I was after. I still can't make much sense of the way Haynes explains things, but I'm sure once I start taking things apart it'll all make sense. Well, that's my hope.

    Thanks again for the help.
     
  5. Robert

    Robert Active Member

    Messages:
    7,479
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Ventura CA
    You should pick up the seal clips since every pair I ever ran into was rusted to pieces by the time I got to them. I upgraded to internal snap rings (1" if I remember right) sourced from the local ACE hardware store. Cheaper at $1 than the $13 from the dealer. Take both the down tube and housing with you to find the right size for you and make sure the ring doesn't impact the slider tube (very important). You will find the boots I'm referring to at https://www.rockauto.com/dbphp/mfr,MONR ... er+Bellows . They are listed as Steering Damper Bellows and I used part number SA-1997 (black). They come in a variety of colors so pick and choose at will to coordinate with any themes you may have going. Here are some pictures to help. You will become more familiar with the Haynes manual with use and experience. Remember it was written by some thoughtful Brits that are just trying to help. They include a glossary of terms in the beginning of the book to help out, nice of them. I've used my manual for 15+ for everything including engine tear-down. You'll get it when you get the grease on your hands, don't worry. Let me know if the photos didn't come through. Good luck, your going to be ok Oblivion.
     
  6. Oblivion

    Oblivion Active Member

    Messages:
    826
    Likes Received:
    139
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Northeast Illinois
    Thanks Robert,

    First, I didn't see and pictures come through.

    Second, I'll take your advice on the internal snap rings.

    As for the Haynes manual, I've had it for just about as long as I've had the bike - 10 years or so. I just havne't used it much lately - obviously. I've gotten used to the quaint Britishisms and actually prefer 'spanner' to 'wrench' and 'slacken' is a cool word, too. The manual has guided me well in the past though valve shim adjustments, etc. So generally I like and can use it. And it's covered in grease and grime. It's just the way the fork section is laid out that was boggling me - for this model look here, but then refer back to Section 5, paragraph 4 igrnoring all mention of X. It reads like a Choose Your Own Adventure story ;) However, dirning this morning's calm before heading to work, I stood next to the bike and re-read the section(s). Looking at the parts I could see and cross-referencing to the diagrams - as out of place as they are in that section - I found the confidence to trust I'll make it though.

    Hell, I took the carbs off and remounted them and the engine ran afterwards - how badly can I screw up the forks?

    So thanks for your guidance and encouragement.

    As for the bellows, I've got a pretty good idea what you're talking about (the, um, bellows-shaped things protecting the shocks on giant monster trucks?). Though the page you refered me to doesn't picture them (it brings up a picture of a shock) at $4.xx, I'm pretty sure that's the right thing. If you can post the pictures, cool - I'd like to see how they look on - but if not, no worries. I wonder if those are easy to come by locally.

    Thanks again.
     
  7. Robert

    Robert Active Member

    Messages:
    7,479
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Ventura CA
    Looks like they didn't go through. I'm going to try again. Here goes.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Robert

    Robert Active Member

    Messages:
    7,479
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Ventura CA
    Here is a comparison to a very poorly visible ruler. My appologies before hand.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Oblivion

    Oblivion Active Member

    Messages:
    826
    Likes Received:
    139
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Northeast Illinois
    It doesn't seem local auto parts shops carry Monroe? Only actual garages? I just went ahead and ordered them. The $6 I spent on shipping would probably be wasted on gas trying to locate them. Black is what I want anyway ;)

    So I assume these have some feature to let any moisture drain out the bottom?
     
  10. Robert

    Robert Active Member

    Messages:
    7,479
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Ventura CA
    If you look down at the bottom, you will notice the boot is split, it extends up the bottom side of the pleat (but not out to the side of the pleat), allowing drainage. Work for you? I've got them on the '83 turbo front end I'm putting on my 81 650 H. Worked like a charm.
     
  11. Oblivion

    Oblivion Active Member

    Messages:
    826
    Likes Received:
    139
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Northeast Illinois
    If not, it's just another $15. Worst case, I've got Hallowen costume parts ;) One last question on the boots, I swear - do you attach them to the forks in some way, or do they just kind of hang on where you place them?
     
  12. Robert

    Robert Active Member

    Messages:
    7,479
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Ventura CA
    I used a zip-tye to snug it down over the lower housing, covering the dust seal. I left it loose enough to be pulled up easily, but snug enough not to go anywhere. Besides, zip-tyes are cheap. Halloween costume eh? You've a very creative mind, I would be hard pressed to imagine any use in that realm.
     
  13. Oblivion

    Oblivion Active Member

    Messages:
    826
    Likes Received:
    139
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Northeast Illinois
    Got plenty of zips - though not in black. Good idea. As for the costume ideas, that's why my basement/garage is FULL of old crap - I figure SOMEWHERE down the road I'll find a use for it so I can't throw it out. . . . My wife is actually the creative Halloween thinker, though. Our kid(s) will probably HATE Halloween since we're such fans. . . .
     
  14. RangerG

    RangerG Member

    Messages:
    642
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Lloydminster, Saskatchewan
    I've done the fork seals a couple times on my bike. One thing that helps lots is to cut off an allen wrench, that fits the bolt on the bottom of the fork, so that you can chuck it in an impact wrench. you need to crack this bolt out to get the forks apart. An impact makes short work of this.

    Rob
     
  15. RangerG

    RangerG Member

    Messages:
    642
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Lloydminster, Saskatchewan
    Chuck in an impact? I'm on too much cold medication. You do need an allen wrench for your impact though. I'd never heard of the bolt tools dicussed in some other threads, but it sounds like a good idea. I guess that's why this site rocks!

    Rob
     
  16. Oblivion

    Oblivion Active Member

    Messages:
    826
    Likes Received:
    139
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Northeast Illinois
    Update on the forks - I thought I was going to need an impact for the hex bolt holding the damper rod in, but alas I was able to break the loktite with just a socket wrench. I did not need the reverse spark-plug socket or stacked bolt trick, in fact a 1/2" wooden dowel was the way to go on my '81 XJ-750 (I think I saw that recommended in the Haynes manual). In fact, the top of the damper rod doesn't even have a hex pattern, it's round, so I don't know if/how the socket or bolt tool would have fit in. I can post pics tomorrow.

    But now I'm stuck - I'm sure these are the original dust seals, and they're not coming out without a fight. Anyone have any hints on how to get them out? I know I'm not saving them - I just worry about beating the hell out of the metal trying to pry them out with a screwdriver.

    Thanks.
     
  17. Robert

    Robert Active Member

    Messages:
    7,479
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Ventura CA
    Large bladed screwdriver or pry bar. The seals are a gonner so don't worry about them, they are going to a better place. One doesn't need to beat them out, a little finess is all it takes. A little prying on opposite ends of the seal tends to help it along. Douse it with WD40 while your at it, it will help. Hope this is the answer you were seeking.
     
  18. Oblivion

    Oblivion Active Member

    Messages:
    826
    Likes Received:
    139
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Northeast Illinois
    Like I said, I wasn't worried about the seal - I just want to make sure the new ones have a place to seat still ;) I'll try the WD. And maybe a match. :D

    It's just difficult to go prying around without scratching up the stancion.
     
  19. Robert

    Robert Active Member

    Messages:
    7,479
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Ventura CA
    I totally understand. Done it myself and wasn't too happy about it. Fortunately the dust seal isn't as particular about the sealing surface as the oil seal. A thin film of RTV will offset any gouges you may leave. But you had better not do that to the oil seals seats, more of a problem there. So use this opportunity to learn where the lesson is cheapest to fix. You'll do fine, just take your time and be nice to it (they can hear you, you know).
     
  20. Oblivion

    Oblivion Active Member

    Messages:
    826
    Likes Received:
    139
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Northeast Illinois
    Once I figured out how to get under the dust seal and pry UP, they came out easy. Now I need a circlip remover - needle-nose ain't going to cut it. Another day, another tool.
     
  21. jdrich48

    jdrich48 Member

    Messages:
    692
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Smithfield, North Carolina
    I used a couple oring picks, they came right out.
     
  22. Oblivion

    Oblivion Active Member

    Messages:
    826
    Likes Received:
    139
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Northeast Illinois
    Now that I think about it, a pair of paper clips would probably hack it, but my daddy always told me to use the right tool for the job, and I need to stop at the hardwar store anyway. . . .
     
  23. Oblivion

    Oblivion Active Member

    Messages:
    826
    Likes Received:
    139
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Northeast Illinois
    What weight oil are folks using in their forks? Owners manual says 10w, Haynes says 20w, and the shop sold me 5w (my faiult for going in informed).

    And yes, this means I'm just about ready to put them back together. . . .
     
  24. JPXJ

    JPXJ Member

    Messages:
    97
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Location:
    Webster, NY
    Okay Oblivion - I'm dying for the rest of the story!

    I'm debating whether to replace my own oil seals or not - one is recently blown and has to go. It's a question of my time versus cash.

    How long did it take you and would you do it again next time or take it to the shop?
     
  25. Robert

    Robert Active Member

    Messages:
    7,479
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Ventura CA
    I've run a 15W with good results, better than the 10W!
     
  26. JPXJ

    JPXJ Member

    Messages:
    97
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Location:
    Webster, NY
    Hey Robert,

    You've done forks at least four of five times - how long does it take you these days? I've searched the forum (even printed your numbered steps entry) but I am still worried about getting her apart and then spending two weeks on four wheels.

    Am I just being a noob or should I be very afraid..?

    Thanks!
     
  27. crc1214

    crc1214 Member

    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    Replace those slider bushings while you're in there!! Pricey but worth it! Replace the fork oil every 2 years and you'll never have to replace them again!
    Just my $.02. Every set of forks I've taken apart that needed new seals also needed new bushings.

    Chad
     
  28. Oblivion

    Oblivion Active Member

    Messages:
    826
    Likes Received:
    139
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Northeast Illinois
    I'm very sorry I missed the follow-up on this. The whole process was slightly annoying (especially since, as I recall, I put the first one back together incorrectly so had to un/redo it), but it was a good learning/confidence-building experience. I'd definitely do it again. And if I had all of the proper tools on hand, I'm pretty sure I could band it out in an evening if not a weekend.
     
  29. RickCoMatic

    RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    13,843
    Likes Received:
    66
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Massachusetts, Billerica
    Needle Nosed pliers will do the trick!

    But ...

    First, YOU have to do the trick to the Needle Nosed Pliers.

    Take a pair of Needle Nosed pliers over to the Bench Grinder.

    Grind-off all the square edges and reduce the material on the jaws.
    You really have to "Round-down and reduce" the body around the Pivot.
    Cut-back the jaws pretty-good to make "The Reach"
    Create ends that will let you get a good grip on the Circlip.

    Put a finish on the tool with the fine wheel.
    Shine-'em up with 400 and 800

    Bingo. Fork and Master Cylinder Tool.
     
  30. PghXJ

    PghXJ Member

    Messages:
    702
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Pittsburgh PA
    so the dealership is the best place to get new fork seals? I was just going to change my fork oil, but I don't know if the seals were ever changed in my bike, and although it isn't leaking now, I might just change them to be sure.

    Is there any other place to get seals?
     
  31. Polock

    Polock Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,751
    Likes Received:
    2,097
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Beaver Falls, PA
    PghXJ
    if it aint broke don't fix it
    do buy them at a dealer though
     
  32. PghXJ

    PghXJ Member

    Messages:
    702
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Pittsburgh PA
    ok just an oil change it is.
     
  33. Robert

    Robert Active Member

    Messages:
    7,479
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Ventura CA
    PghXJ, I'm sorry, I seemed to have missed your question on time. It takes me about 2 hours to pop and swap the set. This includes using my impact gun and the right tools to start out with.
    As for seals, you can source them just about anywhere but our collective experience tells us the best seals are the factory units, so pop the extra dough and get them. Buy new dust seals while your at it if your model uses them, they are usually shot.
     
  34. odic

    odic Member

    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Location:
    Hastings, MI
    Well....Am I incorrect to assume that I can just remove the dust boot, remove the circlip and then remove and replace the fork seals by sliding them up and off the tubes and the new ones back down without disassembling the forks?
     
  35. RickCoMatic

    RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    13,843
    Likes Received:
    66
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Massachusetts, Billerica
    The SEALS are firmly pressed-in to the SEATS. More often than not ... removing the seals will require needing to pry-up and lift them from the area occupied by the Fork Tube.

    Trying to do the job without removing the Tube will be very frustrating and also place the Tube at risk for being damaged or scratched while the Seal is being removed and replaced.

    With a proper tool ... holding the Damper and Undoing its lower fastener to allow removal of the Fork Tube is going to save time and trouble; plus allow you to do a thorough job cleaning the lower end and damping parts.
     
  36. samsr

    samsr Member

    Messages:
    599
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Colorado Springs
    The aftermarket seals are a single lip and are only 7.5mm tall. Where as the yamaha seals are a double lip and 10mm tall. They are also considered a hydrolic seal. As much trouble as these seals are,for my money, I would just spring for the stockers. I dont want to have to do this again this year. I would buy the stock ones. and did
     
  37. twerth

    twerth Member

    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    22
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Parkville, MO
    I've got the factory manual and they reference the "proper tool" for holding the damper, but I don't have one. Is there something I can make from odds and ends laying around the garage that will get the job done? Looking inside the fork, I can see that this isn't a typical hex or allen pattern. What has worked for you guys?
     
  38. RickCoMatic

    RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    13,843
    Likes Received:
    66
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Massachusetts, Billerica
    I made a "Double-ended" Tool by welding a Bolt to the end of a Metal Rod and grinding down the opposite end some and welding the right sized (Not sure if its a 17 or 19mm) Nut on the other end,

    Some Guys have had luck using a Spark Plug Socket (On a long extension - backward) ... I have heard other use a wooden dowel shaved down to fit.

    Having "A" Tool is necessary unless you have high-pressure air Impact to spin the Holding Bolt faster than the Damper Rod.
     
  39. chacal

    chacal Moderator Moderator Supporting Vendor Premium Member

    Messages:
    9,170
    Likes Received:
    1,977
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    The room where it happened
    I carry these, basically what Rick describes:


    w) Lower Fork Damper Rod Retaining Tool.....long aluminum tool with proper sized nuts on each to retain the top of the fork damper down in the bottom of the tube when removing or installing the dampers. One end has a 19mm hex and the other end has a 22mm hex, so it will fit all styles of XJ forks that require the use of this damper retaining tool.

    HCP4402 Fork Rod Damper Retaining Tool:
    $ 18.95

    http://www.xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic ... t=135.html
     
  40. XJXLEE

    XJXLEE Member

    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Location:
    Dublin, Ireland
    After removing the circlip, you can use a Dremel, or small model drill with a fine drill bit to (carefully) drill a hole in opposite sides of the centre of the old fork seal (where the indents in the rubber are). The metal in the seal is thin and soft so this is easy, but keep the drill as vertical as you can.

    Screw a small self tapper into each hole. Clamp the screw head with a vise grip(s) and then tap the edge of the vise grip jaw upwards, from one side then the other.

    The seal will pull out no problem, no swarf gets into the fork as there is a washer/spacer underneath the seal.

    Tap the new seal down using some pvc waste pipe.

    I also made up the 'tool' and tried that method too, the result is the same but the drill method is a bit quicker and you don't get fork oil all over the place. Using the tool you also need a bench vise or another person to hold the tube and slider together so you can tighten it up later.
     
  41. RickCoMatic

    RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    13,843
    Likes Received:
    66
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Massachusetts, Billerica
    Sometimes the old seal is so stuck there no being nice with it. You just have to grab right on to portions of the old seal and twist and wrestle them out. There's no need to be kind to the remnant seal ... its got to come out one way or another.

    You just have to use some finesse and not scratch-up the Lower Tube. I usually wrap the Upper Tube with some Duct Tape to keep from marring-up the top of it while prying-out the chunks of old seal.
     
  42. twerth

    twerth Member

    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    22
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Parkville, MO
    Turns out it was just a matter of getting the right bolt size. I jammed a 19mm nut onto the end of a bolt and held it with a socket and a long extension. The damper bolt was easy to loosen after that. Thanks for all the valuable input.
     

Share This Page