Any helper additive for starter clutch?

Among the work I did on my bike recently was an oil change. I went with the Mobil 1 2oW50 that's special for air cooled engines and wet clutches, but, with it, my starter clutch is now almost useless. It slips immediately like 90% of the time. Just wondering if there's any friction modifier I could add that might help it. The bike only has about 25K miles on it... although, like all of these, it's close to 40 years old.

P.S. The battery is brand new and fully charged. It cranks plenty fast when it doesn't lose its grip.

P.P.S. My bike is a 1982 Seca 750, US model.

 

If thats the Mobil 1 syn the problem is too many additives already. I tried syn in my XJ900 that has 25k. Starter clutch was not happy. Drained it out and went back to reg. Rotella 15w 40 like I was running. Thats all it took. Fixed.

 

It's hard to tell what the real cause is. Definitely frustrating that a lot of people have starter clutch problems (not just XJs, but other Yamahas, Kawasakis, and Hondas) and yet the oil manufacturers don't seem to have anything to say about it.

Fact is that synthetic oils are much more resistant to high temps than conventional oils, and these bikes, especially the US ones with no oil coolers, make for some very hot oil in the summertime.

Some people have had better luck with the Valvoline 10W40 MC synthetic; others have had good luck with the Mobil 1 10W40 "racing" equivalent. Both of those seem designed for water cooled bikes, but they're still synthetic, so should be better. Some people seem to think 20W50 is the problem... but Castrol GTX 20W50 seems fine... but that's a conventional oil...

Is my new oil too thick or too slippery?

For Rotella T 15W40, there's a T4 and a T6. T4 is really just diesel specced, and has a lot of detergent and probably wouldn't be a good idea for my cat. A guy on one of the Kawasaki forums, though, had great results with the T6 and his starter clutch. And T6 is rated for gasoline engines as well. It's still not as cat friendly as some of the newer oils, but then I'm back to guessing about how well they will work with the starter clutch. I don't think any of the modern motorcycle oil recommendations will help me, since bikes that came from the factory with cats were also designed with starter clutches that worked better with newer oils.

What I was thinking about additives, though, was about how final drive oil for cars with limited slip rear differentials have clutch friction modifiers that can be added to them to set how "sticky" the limited slip should be.... and was wondering if there was something that would have a similar effect for the starter clutch, without causing other negative issues with the clutch, shifting, etc...

 

Rotella T non-synthetic for diesel engines is what you want.....life used to be simple, but now Rotella comes in a seemingly unlimited varieties and types. You want the most basic, dinosaur-based oil with as few friction-modifiers as possible.


ENGINE OILS:

Which type and brand should you use? Great question! Here's a bit of an answer:

http://www.motorcycleproject.com/text/motoroil.html

NOTE: Yamaha specifies the use of API "SE" or "SF" grade oil in all XJ models, but that is based on the original (at that time) automotive motor oil standards.....which, as the above article notes, are no longer valid in the current lubrication industry environment and classifications. Therefore we recommend that the oil you choose should meet or exceed the JASO "MA" duty rating, and all of the oils below exceed that standard. Do not EVER use synthetic oils unless they are specifically designed for motorcycle engines using wet clutch systems (as these bikes do use), as you will end up with a slipping clutches (both drive clutch and especially the starter clutch). Additionally, do not use "automotive" grade oils that have friction modifiers (reduced-friction additives) as these will cause the same problems.

The factory recommends the use of 10W30 oil when the outside temperature will never exceed 60-F, or 20W40 if the outside temperature is always above 40-F. Unfortunately, 20W40 oil is not readily available anymore, but there is not an issue with using a straight 40W oil, or 10W40, 15W40, or 20W50 formulations instead.

All XJ-series engines require somewhere from 2.5 quarts to 3.0 quarts for an oil change (depending on whether the filter is replaced or not) except for the 1100 engines, which require slightly under a gallon to accomplish an oil and filter change.

 

As noted, the oil I used is a synthetic designed for motorcycle engines. Two others that I listed are also synthetics designed for motorcycle engines. Plain old conventional oil is never going to have the heat resistance that synthetics do, although they claim to be (and may actually be) better than they used to be.

Regardless, Len, that plain old Rotella T (now called T4) you're recommending isn't even rated or designed for gasoline engines. As I noted before, it would be a really bad choice for the cat that I just got done installing.

 

I think I'm going to have to try the 10W40... either Mobil 1 or Valvoline, that's MA, MA2, and API-SN rated.

 

Rotella t4 is jaso ma ma2 rated.

 

he has a catalytic converter on his bike . he can not use shell T4 rotella due to the zinc additive ( IIRC) in it it will clog his cat.

he wants to use a synthetic oil for his setup. tried 1 typesyn oil and his starter clutch started slipping.
from what I have seen on this site many have used syn oil successfully and others who have followed suit have had issues with their clutch or starter clutch.

I am of the opinion that if your clutches fail with syn oil that they are on the way out and will be needing replacment in the future.
also make sure your clutch cable is adjusted properly if that is the clutch that slips.
this makes reasonable sense if one bike works with the syn oil and another will not. it does not mean that your clutches need to be replaced just that you will want to put it on your list of things to think about

 

When I need a cat on my 82 its time to move.

 

he did not need a cat he is doing something special to his bike. adding fuel injection. needs the cat to adjust/tune the fuel injection

 

The rotella now still has more zinc then your average oil but a lot less with it's new ck-4 cj-4 rating as Diesels now have Cats.
I would be interested to hear if some syn wont affect the starter.

 

I had been running Amsoil's motorcycle 20W50. The starter clutch would slip somewhat with that, too, but mostly just when the battery wasn't fully charged. With this Mobil 1 stuff, the starter clutch slips basically all the time.

When I originally did the fuel injection, I had an oil temp sensor instead of a head temp sensor and got to see some very high oil temps during dyno testing/tuning... the kinds of temps that would break down conventional oils in a few hours. That's the main reason I want to run synthetic (and why I added an oil cooler).

The cat was not "needed", but I wanted one because it makes the bike smell better and because I really do want a result that runs better, more efficiently, and cleaner than the original setup. High zinc and phosphorous levels in the oil are also not good for the oxygen sensor, which is needed for the FI conversion. I don't think Rotella T is what's being recommended for the newest diesels either... it certainly wouldn't be valid for my ML320 CDI - there are only a handful of oils that are.

I have used the Mobil 1 20W50 in my very stock Virago 750, and it's been fine there. The Virago has a very different starter clutch than most Japanese bikes, though. I'll try and save this oil for use in the Virago eventually, rather than just throwing it away. It's got a total of about 10 minute's use in the XJ.

 

Not to make this a complete oil thread but the new t4 ck-4 cj-4 is for most new diesels ford 6.7 , Duramax ect but your correct about the ml320. All Euro's [gas included) need euro specific oil. The engine does not care but the emission system does.

I have thought about trying the t6 in the xj. Been running it in my BBC injected truck for 20 years now but figured the starter will hate that too so I picked up some Yamalube semi for the next change. We'll see.

Very interesting with injecting your bike. You got a thread on it? As a Autotech for 25 years would be a great read.

 

Question for you @SQLGuy - why do you think fitting a cat improves the running of your (impressive) creation? Agreed it will smell differently, but if you have a WB lambda you won't need to run rich lean cycles, you could run lean burn for all cruising modes, save some fuel and reduce emmisions to boot?

 

A cat will not improve running. It will improve emissions and smell. This is not the first cat I had on this install. My previous cat was a cut down car cat installed into the muffler in front of the baffle. That worked quite nicely, but it was lost when the single rivet that MAC puts into the baffle failed, and the baffle and cat were blown out of the muffler.

Sure, stoich, or even slightly lean, is what I'm running in parts of the map, but you don't get to run stoich or leaner all the time. Load needs to be a bit richer, and idle needs to be slightly richer, too. Idle is where the cat makes a big difference.

 

Nothing up to date. I'll see about putting something together. In a nutshell, I made an intake manifold from copper pipe fittings and some copper and brass stock, attached a Ford Escort throttle body, made a fuel rail (again from copper), ran Bosch style injectors (originally from a Hyundai Accent... later from a Ford), and rigged up Saturn wasted spark coils. This allowed me to mount a Microsquirt where the TCI used to be. I made a 36-1 wheel for the crank and used one of the original VR sensors with it. Temp sensing is a Porsche 914 sensor for the block, and a GM sensor for inlet air. Air metering is speed density with an On Semi MAP sensor, and one more for ambient baro.

Recently I added a tooth to the intake cam, and a cam position sensor, so I could upgrade to fully sequential injection. This required also adding two more drivers to the Microsquirt module.

I'm fighting with a seeping fuel leak from the fuel rail, which is blocking other progress... will dig into that again this evening, but, initial startups show the sequential injection to be providing a much smoother and better regulated idle (compared to previous non-sequential or semi-sequential setups I've run with), which was the main goal.

Main advantages are easy starting at any temperature, even when the bike's been sitting for weeks or longer; better fuel economy; and better running at high altitudes (I live at 6000' and often ride up to 12000' or so). Not sure I'm getting any more power than a well tuned stock system, but the power seems reasonable. I may do another round of dyno tuning once I get the current work finished and have done some street and highway tuning.

 

Wow very impressive. I was thinking you stripped out a late model bike.

You always hear people talking about making a bike their own. You Sir have taken this to a whole new level. Freaken Awesome!

 

Thanks! It's been a lot of work, and frustrating at times, but I've also put a lot of good miles on this build, and the upgrades should make it even better. Mainly, though, I like the bike but hate carburetors... especially having four of them to deal with. My daughter's bike (Ninja 250) has two, and they're a pain. My Virago 750 also has two, but they came out pretty well and I can't really complain too much about that bike.

 

Thanks for the reply - sure, if you like the smell of marzipan and fart gas - i get that.
But emmisions? The cat will change co to co2, is this better? Maybe, but it will take more fuel to do it. There is an argument that lean burn would produce less greenhouse gas, there may also be an argument against the heavy metals cats release onto the roadside - your cat being a chunky example.
Anyway, this is neither here nor there really, just my opinion. I also have to say I'm impressed with your project.

 

I hear ya there. I am also an engine builder. At the shop I work at we do engines from antique to muscle cars. Many time we suggest converting to FI as we do engine installs as well. Generally its always the same answer ( nah I dont want any problems I want a carburetor) ......... as they drive home in there trouble free FI everydayer... Makes no sense.. Whatever

 

Thanks, but., "more fuel to do it"? Sure you're not thinking of a diesel? Gasoline cats are optimized to run around stoich.... they can even run lean for the CO to CO2 conversion. Diesels need to run rich to reduce NOx emissions, unless you're doing urea injection.

And yeah, I know some people like the pungence of a 1970s gasoline engine. I'm not one of them.

 

Swapped out two quarts of the 20W50 for Mobil 1 4T 10W40. The starter clutch definitely likes this better.

 

Yeah sure, a cat needs fuel to make it work? Or is this more a function of nb lambdas? So at idle, or steady state, you won't be running rich/lean cycles?

 

OK. First, an ideal gasoline engine would always run stoich and always burn all of its fuel. You get the most power, the most efficiency, and the cleanest emissions that way... but you can't because ideal engines don't exist. ICE/electric hybrids do well because they can be set up to run more of their time in areas where near-ideal conditions can be met. Fuel injection and ECU controlled timing also help, because they can better adjust for different load, ambient pressure, humidity, air and engine temperatures, throttle position, etc, than a venturi and a fixed timing curve can... but, XJ engines were designed for carburetors, so not all of the benefits of FI can be completely realized with them. Net result is that under load, and, even at idle, I'm at a richer than stoich mixture. Slightly richer at idle, often much richer at higher load. No, at idle, closed loop EGO control is not running much into lean... it's staying slightly rich. Even if I were running a narrow band O2 (I'm using WB), where idle would oscillate close to stoich, that means that within any second or so of running there's some extra fuel during some moments, and some extra oxygen during other moments, in the exhaust stream.

Modern cats are three-way cats:

1. Burn unburned hydrocarbons to CO2 + H2O.
2. Convert CO to CO2.
3. Convert NOx to N2

Of these, only 3 requires stoich or richer to work, and, as mentioned, the mixture will often be stoich or richer. When it's lean, like at light cruise or during decel, 1 and 2 are still happening, though there shouldn't be too much HC or CO when lean.

1 is what makes the biggest difference for smell.

This isn't a case of tuning for the lowest possible emissions at the expense of all else. I'm quite confident that my emissions are already much lower than a stock bike just because of the extra control FI gives and the ability to do fuel cut during decel, etc. This is a case of getting the additional reduction in emissions that a cat basically gives for free. I'm not modifying the tune for the cat... just installing it and letting it do its thing to help mitigate the compromises that are needed for smooth idle and good power from a 40 year old engine design.

 

Comprehensive answer there, thanks!