Starter Repair?

Temps hit record January highs here of +7C (+45F) the other day so I decided it would be a great time to shake off the winter blues and start her up. When I did, she started but not without some fuss.

The starter would catch and start to spin the motor and then let go and spin freely, like the drive backed out. Other times it would catch and spin and then the bike would emit a honking sound, something like a goose protesting being poked by a bull. After a few rounds of this, it held on long enough to start.

So, I take it the starter needs a re-do. How much of a job is it and what can I expect to find? Is there anything else I should do while I'm in the area?

Any help appreciated guys.

 

It sounds like the starter clutch (inside the crankcase) is slipping. I would try changing the oil before doing anything else.

 

My starter make the goose like noise when it is cold as well. As for the drive not engaging could be a problem with the bendix.

 

mine made the goose noise last night. started up fine first try but ran like crap. took the choke off and it died and made the noise when i tried to restart. damn winter!

 

You may just be able to bet away with taking the starter off and cleaning out the old/frozen grease and relubing it with some new grease. As far as the starter clutch. an oil change will probably do some good.

 

For some reason whenever I start a small job, it ends up being far more complex and involved than the beginning idea. Just ask my wife - when we decided to fix some carpet and I ended up putting down real hardwood all through the house.

Starter seems small - how bad can it be if I pull it apart and I have a rebuild on my hands?

 

A swiss watch is small. How bad could a rebuild be?

Seriously though, starter way easier than a watch. Just pay close attention to how things come apart. Some like to sketch how things go together. If you draw as well as I do you should take pictures instead.

 

How would you like being kicked in the butt when you are freezin' cold and told to get rolling?

I bet you'd moan a little bit too.

Overhaul the Starter's Planetary Gear Arrangement. Don't use a Dino Grease.
Use a Synthetic waterproof grease and be sure to lube the Orbit Ring all the way around.

That ought to take the "Moan" out of a cold starter motor ... for sure!

 

Sound advice Rick and thanks for the tip about the lube. You are also correct about age, temperature and moaning, though those things don't make me sound like a violated goose.

Colonoscopy did that, last month.

I'll dig into the starter and begin my inter-planetary adventure next week. Starters, the final frontier...

 

Now, be careful.

When you remove the two long screws holding the case all together ... Everything's Loose.

The Mechanical end has a "Detent" to let you know its on and mated-up right. The Electrical end don't.

Don't twist the Electrical end the pigtail for the Brushes is connected to the Contact Post and its SHORT. You could damage it before you even know it.

 

Thanks for the tips Rick, you are a fountain of information. We'll see how she goes after I get the shed light put in and get my close-up glasses fixed.

 

I can't even think about doing the "Close-up" work without my "Reading Glasses" on.

I know the feeling!

 

If you do take the starter apart to lube things up, it's worth also checking the brush lengths. They're specs are listed in your XJ manual (you've got one, right? ;-)
If the brush lengths have worn shorter than the minimum recommended length, you can order them. I just did. If you'll notice, there's a bolt at the end not inserted into the cases. It attaches to the positive battery cable. This bolt is spot welded to the one of the brushes inside the starter via a length of woven copper wire. The new brush set doesn't come with the bolt already attached so you'll have to break the spot weld and re-weld the new woven copper wire to your old bolt.
Also, it's not a bad idea to clean the commutator surfaces the brushes ride on. Build up develops and can be cleaned using a very fine emery cloth using a very light touch. I just replaced the bushes on my XJ900 and you have to be very patient and meticulous. Just take your time.
Here's a link with photos of a yamaha starter motor being worked on but this is from an XS1100, which has four brushes rather than the 2 brushes in an XJ starter motor. Otherwise, they are virtually the same and the photos and descriptions will be very helpful.
http://people.delphiforums.com/dadbenny/internals.htm

And here's another link that is useful.
http://www.dansmc.com/electric_starters.htm

thx,
baz

 

You guys are awesome...thanks Rick and Baz. Wednesday the operation starts if I can get through the snow that's coming.

 

Steele, I know the problem well. And how many guys ride in to work when it's 25 degrees outside? Oddly, I have the same problem, but kind of backwards. My bike starts wonderfully in the morning when it's 25 out, and then from work when it's 45. But if I stop on the way home to get gas, and the bike is warmed up, the starter seems to slip. It, how do you spell, chug, chug, rattle-rattle-rattles. I don't know about a goose, but it does sound awful.

So, if I keep my trip limited to home -> work and work -> home, the starter is happy. I'd love to start this task on the parts bike starter, but when trying to unscrew the very first nut that attaches the positive lead, the case cracked away. So now I need a very thin wrench to grip one nut while I unscrew the other, not to mention I have a cracked "electrical" end to the case.

Please keep this thread up to date on your adventure so those like me can glean all of this great knowledge.

 

Sounds like you starter chain or it's tensioner is worn out. Cold shrinks it down so it still catches, but when it's warmed up something expands, loosens up and loses grip after a couple turns.

 

When its cold out and the bikes warmed up and hard to start it would prompt me to check the Enrichment Circuit.

The Heart of which is the Starter Jet extending into the Start Circuit Fuel Supply Well. The narrow Brass Tube has the smallest Metering Ports on the Carbs and get fouled easily. On some Bikes there are Metering Ports along the Side of the Starter Jet.

The Carbs being Cast Aluminum ... dissipate any heat and are the firsts things to cool down when your outside and its Coooold!

They get lazy; particularly the Diaphragms which will settle and resist movement
Unless you have Carb Heat ... you're going to have to deal with the cold and the tough Start. Most of them fire immediately upon push start.

Stick the Tube from some WD40 inside the Enrichment Valve Dust Seal and give them all a shot while working the Choke Knob.

 

The "goose" is the sound of dry shafts and pinions inside the starter. They need a good lubing. My turbo used to do it a lot, probably because it always needed a lot of cranking.

 

I eliminated that noise by overhauling the Planetary Gear Set onn the business end of the Starter.

Pop-off the C-clip and clean and lube the shaft bearing-bushings with some Synthetic Waterproof Grease.

Be sure to do both Planet Gears and the Orbital Ring.

 

Well, she's apart and here is what I found:
-The screws that hold it together are SOFT. First crack with a Phillips nearly stripped the heads. Used WD40 and gentle vise-grips near the threads with success.
-The planetary gear set was nearly dry, or at least drier than expected.
-The electrical end and the area behind the planetary plate were loaded with carbon
-the brushes were only 7mm.

So, it's off to the parts place for some lube and a set of brushes.

Rick or Baz - how does one weld the new brush lead to the terminal - is this better left to a pro?

 

It doesn't need to be welded ... it needs to be soldered. If you aren't comfortable doing the soldering ... bring it to an Auto-Electric Shop or have someone who can solder it up for you do it.

That's a Critical soldering job. You don't want a "Cold soldering" job done right there.

You should clean the Planet end really well and use some waterproof synthetic grease to lube the the gears and the outside ring.
Your Starter will be more efficient after the overhaul.

 

Rick, do you know any tricks to get the braid cleaned up so it solders well?

 

I heat the end in the flame of a Propane Torch and touch it to the Flux in my tin of soldering flux.

That cleans it and leaves a little coating of flux on the braid.

Then I reheat it and Tin the end by running solder right into the end of the braid. That sets it up to be easily soldered onto the spot on the bracket.

I heat the Bracket and remove the old Brush and wipe-off the old solder.
Then I add a puddle of new solder and touch the end of the new brushes braid into the solder.

Once the Braid picks-up the heated new solder ... remove the heat and let it solidify.

Done!