Won't start! :-( help, please?

I've been riding my bike regularly, it's a 1980 Yamaha XJ650 with 27,158 miles on it. We've done a LOT to it (partial list on my profile and showcase)
Last year we rebuilt the starter. I've put at least 5000 miles on it since.
I rode my bike the other day, the next day the starter just spins really fast.
I checked the battery, it was a little low on acid, filled it with distilled water, (it's 2 years old I think) changed the oil and filter, (Castrol 4T 20/50) and checked all the electrical components, made sure everything is tight.
We have a steep driveway and I was easily able to pop start it and ride it up the road and back. As soon as I got back, I tried the starter, again, it just spins.
Do I need another starter (or rebuild) or is my starter clutch shot? There's NO noise, not like a bag of gravel or anything anyone else has described a bad starter clutch , just the noise of the starter spinning and not turning the motor.
Anyone have any ideas, thoughts, solutions lol?

 

check the battery voltage
bump start the bike and check the charging voltage.
see if the battery is charging..
put battery on charger if you have one . could be battery is to weak to spin everything fast enough to catch

you could try jumping the battery from a car battery car off see if the starter works correctly.

 

Battery is holding a charge, but it won't start the bike even when it's attached to the charger. I need to go find our multimeter to check voltage, but battery was the first thing we checked, topped it off and charged it, and tried starting the bike while on the charger. Starter just spun. It does bump start. This is really out of the blue I've been riding this bike for 8 years now, and already multiple times this season.

Battery test 11.97
While trying to start 11.43

 

Yeah dude it sounds like battery related, especially since you were able to bump start it easily. Your voltage seems alittle low, it shouldn't hit under 12v even under load for a good battery brand in good health. Like XJ550H said, connect it to a car battery and try turning it over. If it starts the bike then there you go, you found the issue, bad battery.

These starters require GOOD VOLTAGE to spin the starter fast enough to engage the one-way clutch, the sound of rocks means the clutch is slipping, yours sounds like nothing which means it's not engaging the one way clutch at all. Really sounds voltage related.

 

Were these tested with a multimeter, or ????


The 11.43V during crank is more than enough, but.......if the starter motor is not truly turning the engine over, then that may be a "false" reading (or, rather, not a valid observation of the battery condition).

It's hard to imagine a situation where the starter motor just spins, w/o engaging anything in the motor........that would point to something severely wrong (internally, mechanically) within the starter motor itself, or something radically wrong within the engine.......which, if you can bump start it and it runs without parts flying out of the engine, doesn't seem to be the case........

The oil you used for the last oil change (previous to the problem occurring).....what type/brand was it?

Although you don't have the "gravel in a can" sound, it still sounds like a starter clutch problem..........you can see all of the main internal engine components associated with the starter motor and clutch here:

https://www.shopyamaha.com/parts-ca...a3e55e75/fcc43e61-b583-4952-b45d-78bc77c1fe9a

and besides the primary chain (item # 22), it's all kind of direct, gear-driven (besides the starter clutch springs and rollers....items 7 - 9, which depend on friction to operate, and why certain types of oils create problems...if the oil is too "slick", you lose the friction that the rollers applies to the hub, driving the outer cover/sprocket (item #13) which is attached to the primary chain #22, and although not shown, the primary chain is also geared onto the center of the crankshaft....thus rotating it, the pistons, etc.

 

Used a multimeter, and have always used Castrol 4T 20/50 motorcycle oil. Every change since I got the bike with 3,450 miles. When I hit the starter button I only get a high pitched whine.

I'd upload a video but it's too big. Maybe I can put it on YouTube and share the link.

 

That is a great idea............

 

YouTube link

 

Sorry for the link to a competing XJ site, but this sounds like a stripped starter idler gear: https://www.xjrider.com/viewtopic.php?t=6298

On the other hand, maybe not. This setup looks different from what's used on older XJs.

Still sounds like the starter is spinning freely. I'd say the first thing should be to remove the starter and see if its drive gear is loose on the shaft or damaged. At least it's relatively quick and easy to pull the starter. From there maybe you can see something inside the case as well that will provide more information.

 

That's a very nice thread, but the XJ600 engines are much more like the XJ550 models.......in particular, as it relates the this topic, thee are no "doubled" gears on the idler gear shaft "pin".......the XJ650-900 engines just have the primary idler gear on it's own pin/shaft (this is the gear that engages with the gear on the end of the starter motor itself). The XJ550/600 engines have both the primary idler gear and the larger/thicker drive gear on that same pin.

Yes.

 

We did pull the starter. Twice. Watched it spin as I hit the starter bbutton. Tried replacing a broken looking plastic washer with an unbroken one. Starter was rebuilt last summer, or maybe the summer before, about 5000 miles ago.

 

Only thing pulling the starter told us is that the drive gear has a bit of play in it. Should it be rock solid and not move side to side even a little bit?

 

It may have a tiny amount of slop (both axial and lateral) to it, but look at the gear teeth to see any evidence of abrasion, injury, gouges, etc.

 

There's no dings, gouges, teeth missing etc.. it looks pretty much just like a picture of a new one

 

Okay, that's good...........also, while it's out, ground the case and touch a hot lead (direct from battery positive) to the starter motor and make sure that:

a) the end gear spins
b) it spins in the correct direction (which is in the same direction as your tires rotate when moving forward)

 

I'm going to test that again tomorrow, because I was working the controls I couldn't see the gear end of the starter. Although the old man said it was spinning, and not to sound like a smart mouth but it couldn't reverse direction without being disassembled, could it? I looked up the receipt, it was 3 years ago I rebuilt that starter. I seem to remember the copper parts (forget the name) that the brushes contact, were very thin. If those wore down too thin since then, could it possibly cause this issue? Since it's been 3 years, I figured I'd take it off and apart to clean and check it anyway ..

 

It is possible to put it together 180 degrees off, which would cause the starter to spin backward.

 

But I've been riding it for thousands of miles over 3 years is what I've saying....

 

Oh.... missed that— it’s past my bed time... I’m not reading straight I guess

 

There's a diagram of the starter system here: https://images.cmsnl.com/img/partsl...3-d-usa-starter-clutch_bigyau0852c-2_733b.gif

I think the most likely thing is a failed starter clutch, since the starter drive gear looks OK. But that is very much a guess. Can you see the idler gear through the hole where the starter mounts? Can you run it through one rotation by pushing its teeth with a screwdriver or something to see that it turns correctly and doesn't have missing teeth?

I would think that if the primary chain had failed the bike wouldn't run... After you had bump started it, was the alternator charging the battery?

 

Yes, we could see and move the idler gear, and it looks just as good as the starter drive gear.
I JUST found my tools to open the alternator case, I haven't tested it yet but battery is still holding a good charge.

 

With the case open, you should be able to see whether the alternator is connected to the crank... by rolling in gear or just removing the timing cover and cranking the crank around.

 

Here's a better video/audio of the starter whine and then me pop starting it. Starts up as soon as I let go of the clutch. But starter still just whines. I sprayed like half a can of seafoam with one of those super long u shaped straws into the case around the starter clutch area, changed the oil, twice, and no change.

 

Could it be the starter clutch hub that holds the springs caps and dowels that has cracked?

 

Have you tried putting a different starter in?

 

Good idea. You can also pull the stator and rotor to see the primary chain and the 2nd idler gear on the back of the starter clutch.

Another good point, although if the primary chain failed, I think you would hear it and it would probably / possibly seize the engine. It's a pretty large, heavy-duty piece of equipment and having it fly around inside the engine would probably hurt a lot of things.......

 

Have you tried:

1. A different starter
2. Pulling the starter and spin the gear inside the engine by hand. Does it spin freely.... does it spin freely both directions?

 

Don't have one. Got an extra?

 

1. No. I only have one starter
2. Yes. It spins freely only in one direction, counterclockwise looking at it from outside the case.

 

I've ridden for about a half hour today by bump starting, circulating the new oil, starter still just whines. And the bike runs smoothly as ever. No weird noises, smells, nothing except the starter doesn't work anymore.

 

I bet the hub has cracked that is why the crankshaft is not turning. The starter clutch dowels either grip or they skip, if it is silent they are not in contact with the shaft at all. I hope I am wrong.

 

Hopefully we'll see soon. And that sucks. 27,000 miles, why did my hub crack?

If I can find an honest mechanic, we'll find out. Otherwise I'll be bump starting this bike until I end up killing myself at a stoplight or something.

 

This sounds mad but I am sure it could be used to test the starter clutch grip. Remove the starter motor. I know a power drill has too small a chuck. Is there any way an electric motor could be utilised to grip the alternator shaft and spin it anticlockwise with the bike in neutral and on the centre stand. Mad I know but it would determine whether the starter clutch was working. I have been accused on being mad before but I have been called worse ha ha.

 

Sarah I hope I am wrong.

 

this link shows inside starter with all the gears it is posible that they are striped out
https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/yamaha/motorcycle/1982/xj650j/starting-motor

 

I just recently rebuilt this starter and besides carbon buildup the gears were in great shape. I wish you were right, though.

 

Me, too.

I'll ask any mechanic I might find about your idea, though! I'm not up to trying but maybe they will be!

 

The alternator rotor is on the same shaft as the starter clutch. I wish I could get working on the bike to try it. I always look at other ways of doing things, some work, some don't. At least by doing what the guys have said already we can collectively diagnose the problem.

 

Since they're on the same shaft, by that point it wouldn't be such a mad idea at all to try to spin the starter clutch assembly by utilizing the alternator shaft. And it's not necessarily mad all, it's just alternative engineering

 

How do you start a stihl saw? If the starter clutch is the problem it could be tested this way. Remove the starter motor. Wrap a strong piece of string round the alternator rotor clockwise and trap the end of the string on the first few wraps. Then pull on the string as hard as you can if the clutch is shot there will be zero resistance if it is spun fast enough.

 

I like that lol.

 

Simple, yet seems it would be an effective test!

 

Here is how it works.

 

So when your XJ engine starts when you roll the bike with ignition on and let the clutch out when in gear the chain from the crankshaft drives the alternator via the same shaft the starter clutch is on hence my Stihl saw pull cord idea.

 

So since I push started my bike and rode it to the mechanic the other day, (~40 miles) the bike has developed a distinct ticking noise. Don't know if this helps in the diagnosis, I don't know what it means, though. It shouldn't be primary chain chatter, I've adjusted that recently, but I thought I should mention it in case it rings a bell for someone...

 

Can you post a video so we can hear the noise Sarah? What did your mechanic say?

 

I can, but it'll be later or tomorrow since I have to push start it. I'll probably need assistance, i gotta talk the old man into helping me do that lol
It's not super loud, just loud enough to hear over the exhaust and everything, doesn't really sound like something rattling around inside, it sounds exactly like a 350 Chevy with a little bit of a lifter tick. Consistent ticking.

 

He thought starter gears but we took apart the starter and the gears look fine, unfortunately. I have a known good starter on the way should be here tomorrow just in case it is actually the starter, anyhow.

 

Great yes do the video and let us hear it.

 

Yes Hogfiddles said that to try another starter, I hope that fixes it.