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Clutch issues after rebuild

Discussion in 'XJ Technical Chat' started by XJ650Chop, Jul 2, 2021.

  1. XJ650Chop

    XJ650Chop New Member

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    Hi All

    Complete noob here but happy to try and learn etc. which is what got me in this predicament.
    The bike is a chop using an XJ650 and I started to have some issues with the clutch slipping at high revs.
    After one of the chinese air filters decided to 'fly away' somewhere I figured, get the bike in my garage and give it some love. I replaced all the air filters with decent ones from Ram, bought new clutch friction plates , springs, gasket, oil filter, oil to give it a service. After watching several videos from here and on youtube it looked easy enough (hah) and went through the process of replacing the clutch (friction) plates.

    This is the process I went through:
    Drained all the oil
    unclipped the clutch cable
    undone case bolts
    removed cover and cleaned off old gasket
    removed the 5 bolts holding the clutch springs and plates in, bit by bit, cross pattern
    removed all the plates keeping note of what way they went in.
    the new friction plates I had soaked in some of the new oil overnight
    checked the basket for any wear (all good)
    gave it a very light rubbing with some wet and dry like in the video in the DIY forum.
    I then placed the new friction plates in and then a steel after checking the steel for flatness
    each steel was put in the same way it come out and same order and lightly rubbed with some oil
    the first couple of friction plate was a bit snug but everything seemed to go back in the way it should.
    I then put the new springs in which were slightly longer than the old ones marketed as performance springs.
    screwed the spring bolts in, 2.5 turns at a time cross pattern until fairly tight then tightened them all up a half turn.
    new gasket on and case on, I took the c clip off and removed the little arm the clutch cable pulls on so i could resit it with the spring and same distance it had before. replaced c clip.
    pulling the lever the clutch feels kind of the same as it was before, same amount of movement of the arm etc. changed filter and filled it up with the new oil (Yamalube) and let it sit for a while.

    so far previous to my tinkering to start the bike ive had to bump start it, usually in second gear Id run it along jump on and let the clutch out and it starts (new battery is arriving so this wont be an issue going forward) however after my clutch work I have the following issues;

    with clutch in, in 2nd gear its real hard to push. to get it started ive had to push it in neutral and change to 2nd after jumping on. with the bike started and engine running even with the clutch in i can feel it pulling enough that i have to use the front brake to stop it.
    I cannot change gear with the engine running, engine off I can go up and down the gears fine, once started the gear change lever is solid I cannot move it.

    having no experience im unsure as to what the issue, my gut tells me i may have over tightened the spring screws or its something to with how the spindle that the clutch cable turns is married up with the inside. Figured id post here before i drain all the oil again and start over as it may be something simple that wouldnt require that. as mentioned i am a complete novice, this is the first bike ive ever worked on and the first time ive ever done anything other than ridden.

    I may or may not have been too ambitious with my first attempt but the videos made it look pretty easy and i watched them all several times and from several different people and all the info/processes/method were identical.

    any suggestions?
     
  2. XJ550H

    XJ550H Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    first there is a torque spec for the spring bolts 7.2 ftlbs

    could be your cable needs adjustment should be about 2 or 3 mm play at lever. also lune cable and check the cable routing.

    there are marks on clutch arm and shaft you may be 1 tooth off.
    the shaft pulls the center pin with groves in it in the clutch to open the clutch you may have missed setting that when reinstalling cover

    did you read bigfitz clutch change in the diy forum?
    clutch marks.JPG
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2021
  3. Polock

    Polock Well-Known Member

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    your clutch just needs adjusted
    the clutch cable was adjusted with worn out plates, now it has new thicker plates
    however those bolts that hold the springs down should be done with a torque wrench, 7.2 ft/lbs, with thread lock juice.
    a battery is going to make life easy, get a little charger, your going to need it.
     
    Jetfixer and XJ550H like this.
  4. Polock

    Polock Well-Known Member

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    you see 7.2 in here twice, it's important. don't ask me why
     
  5. XJ650Chop

    XJ650Chop New Member

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    I did not, I only found the forum after, but had watched the videos posted here already through searching on youtube. When i found this site i saw the video guides and realised i had already watched them. Ill go through that and check the indentations for the shaft alignment. my cable routing is going to be different as the bike frame is (was) a kawasaki with a xj lump dropped in. Im unsure what lune cable means..?

    I picked up a battery charger a couple of hour ago and will get it on charge in the morning. the battery is buried and there is no fly lead so i was being a bit lazy and bumping it. tomorrow I will install the fly lead for future charging without having to take panels off
    I will also nip over to a mechanic I know who will certainly have a torque wrench I could borrow.

    Thanks guys will see where I get tomorrow
     
  6. Mechanic1978

    Mechanic1978 Active Member

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    The 550 model clutch cover has a tooth spline in the rod going down in the case, and needs a slight (clocking) method when slipping cover back on or it will never fully disengage no matter how much you adjust the cable. Not 100% sure the 650 needs this done or not. I just checked the part explosion for the 650 maxim clutch, and yes it will need to be slightly clocked in the reverse rotation as well.
     
  7. XJ650Chop

    XJ650Chop New Member

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    is reverse rotation the direction the spring pulls it or the direction the cable pulls?
    when putting on the case I had to rotate it and i *think* i did it in the spring direction.

    Im fairly sure it was in this direction as it put the arm the clutch cable clips into, too far away for the cable to reach
    I removed the clip and moved the arm in the direction the cable pulls it.

    my reply keeps failing because of spam or language so its been edited several times. hopefully i still made sense
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2021
  8. Mechanic1978

    Mechanic1978 Active Member

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    Ok when you removed the cover did you also remove the (arm) that holds the cable?
    If so just pull it back off the shaft and rotate it counter clockwise aprox 3 spline teeth and push down, install cable. (engine off) put in 1st gear and pull clutch lever, if it bike moves forward and backwards freely by pushing and pulling it (with no hard effort) then your done. If it does not move freely then remove cable, rotate another 2 teeth and retest till it moves freely. Once it moves freely with lever pulled, release the lever and push/pull again, it should not move. Then put fasteners and c clip on and done.

    If you never removed the cable arm, then when you put the cover back on you would want to rotate the arm counterclockwise a few teeth, meaning as you push the cover back on the arm will grip the teeth of the clutch center and automatically rotate back to the forward (original) position.

    Either way you can reposition the arm to fix it with no need to remove the cover again. As seen above here in (xj550h)'s response to you. When it is in correct position, you will need to use a wrench and manually rotate the arm to slip cable end into slot. It needs (preload) to take up any slack internally.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2021
  9. XJ550H

    XJ550H Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Lune cable is fat finger for
    Lube cable.
     
  10. XJ650Chop

    XJ650Chop New Member

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    trying to reply but get constant spam/inappropriate error

    i have marked on the picture with green arrows what i think this pic relates to... im not sure the left most arrow is relevant as i think that is on the clip
    and not sure if the arrow on the right points to anything i should be looking at.

    This sounds good as i dont fancy draining the bike again. I have also picked up a torque wrench. IF i do sort the issue by just adjusting the arm, should i worry about going back to torque the spring bolts to 7.2?
     

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  11. XJ550H

    XJ550H Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    You can lean the bike over and not have to drain the oil to talk down the bolts. Do a search for clutch grenade here you'll see what happens when the bolts aren't correct it's not a pretty sight
     
  12. Mechanic1978

    Mechanic1978 Active Member

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    You have two adjusters, upper lever thumb screw, and lower cable end mount nuts.

    Upper adjuster setup:
    0. Put bike on center stand.
    1. Pull cable off.
    2. Turn thumb screw on lever all the way in and align slots for cable.
    3. inspect cable for stretching and or kinks (plier pinch marks) straighten if needed.
    4. Install cable into perch laver, into slot, then put cable case into adjuster head. Leave adjuster alone for now!
    5. Route cable down to clutch housing, avoiding any tight bends.
    6. Loosen both nuts on cable end, thread one all the way to the end (towards right), and thread other nut all the way to the end of the cable (towards left) essentially separating both nuts .
    7. Place cable into bracket, pull cable towards clutch arm leaving minimal slack. Turn right nut until it touches the mount surface. Holding cable in bracket while turning bars all the way right and then left watching for cable casing to pull, don't stop it but don't let go either using your hand to keep in mount. If it pulled when turning, re adjust right nut to mount surface. Once it stops pulling, give it an extra 1/4" for slack.
    8. Then while still firmly holding in mount, adjust left nut all the way to its mount surface, and finger snug them both together. You now have a properly installed cable with full adjustment at the top. But don't adjust top just yet.

    Ok, now lower clutch side:

    pull arm off the shaft and rotate it counter clockwise (left/down) aprox 3 spline teeth and push down, find a wrench or adjustable one that fits on big end of arm and use it to turn arm towards cable end and attempt to slip cable into slot. (engine off) put in 1st or 2nd gear and pull clutch lever in and hold it in, if the wheel moves forward and backwards freely by hand (with no hard effort) then your almost done. If it does not move freely then remove cable from arm, and rotate arm down another 2 teeth and retest fitting cable end in slot till wheel rotates by hand freely. Once it moves freely with lever pulled, release the lever and try to turn wheel again, it should not move if correct. If not repeat arm another 1 tooth. Your arm clocking should be rotating to the left, opposite of cable pull direction. Once the wheel rotates by hand freely with the upper lever pulled Then put fasteners and c clip on and use two wrenches and tighten both lower cable mount nuts. Start up and drop in gear and test similar to riding, clutch squeezed in, wheel slowed down, release and watch wheel speed up. If so go ride it. If rpm's are too high revving an minimal movement, take the arm and rotate it to left/ down 1 tooth/spline at a time. When it is almost normal feeling, make several trips up road and back, adjusting upper adjuster1 to 1 1/2 turns at a time.
    If it still not pulling good and fully disengaging with lever pull, then I'm afraid you will need to crack case cover open again. Do the above and let us know. Whewww!!! and if it were mine I would torque them along with a little blue locktite.
     
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  13. Minimutly

    Minimutly Well-Known Member

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    One thing I would add to the torqing up the clutch bolts thing - there is no point doing this with the existing bolts - get some new ones. If you didn't torque them up previously you may well have overtightend, and stretched them.
    Personally, I'm not sold on changing these every tome, but if they've been stretched.....
     
  14. Mechanic1978

    Mechanic1978 Active Member

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  15. Polock

    Polock Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG] it's kind of important
     
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  16. XJ650Chop

    XJ650Chop New Member

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    now wish i hadnt started....
    So picked up torque wrench set it to 9.76 newtons which should be 7.2 f/lbs
    undone the bolts, easy as i didnt really do them up that tight
    started on tightening the bolts with the torque in a cross formation a few qtr turns at a time, get to the point where i just meet a bit of resistance
    check torque settings, go to tighten down and snapped the head off a bolt.
    wasnt even applying much pressure at all, so little i was rather incredulous that the bolt snapped.
    so tried it on another and snapped that too!! wtf
    brilliant.

    So my question(s) now is;
    how easy is it to replace a clutch basket and is this something i should be attempting? The parts are fairly cheap. I can get entire clutch basket assembly gears/plates/basket etc. for about $50, I doubt it would be worth getting the current one drilled and tapped etc as the time and labour involved in that would exceed the basket cost.

    The company i am looking at have a few in stock, they also seem to have one listed as xj650/750 but this one has 6 springs/bolts would this be compatible as I thought that come off of an xj900. any benefit to getting that one instead if it is compatible?

    The springs I replaced were marketed as for the xj650 and were longer than the stock.. would these have contributed anything towards my issue? should i put the factory ones back in?

    I would like to do this myself as I am happy to learn new things and would rather get to know my bike a bit more but im now tossing up whether to just get a garage to sort it so i can get riding while the summer is here as come winter time its definitely going back into the garage and Ill ride my other bikes in bad weather.
     
  17. Mechanic1978

    Mechanic1978 Active Member

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    same thing Minimutly was informing you of, old repeatedly heated and cooled bolts with high lateral tensions are bound to snap. on older bolts in this case he was spot on in mentioning replacing them, I just pray you did not damage the clutch basket. when replacing the plates on usually any motorcycle i just hand tighten real good with some blue (releasable) Loctite. and in 20+ yrs have never had an issue. If the springs were excessively longer yes, but might just have provided a stiffer pull and engagement, but yes they can, with a longer stiffer spring pressing on an old bolt, sounds like it was a matter of time.

    Basket may not have to be replaced, but you will need to remove all the plates again. post us a picture of the broke stud in the basket as well for best info on how to proceed it likely will just walk right out of there so you can inspect the basket threads.. You will defiantly need a new bolt set and also get (correct) springs as well. These are both aluminum parts and I don't believe an actual torque is required as the soft metals even when new can pull threads easily. Others may disagree, but that's my personally proven opinion. There are several strengths of Loctite which is a godsend just like antis seize is. ohh, never use (red) Loctite on aluminum, or small bolts and screws. post them pics.....
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2021
  18. XJ650Chop

    XJ650Chop New Member

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    The springs were (apparently) for an xj650 just marketed as performance, Ill get a pic of them next to a factory spring , when putting them in they seemed alright and didnt have much issue tightening them up (pre torque woes).

    I have attached pics of basket and then close up of each broken bolt, I have already ordered another clutch basket as it was cheap so happy to keep it as a spare if these are easy to remove but im not too optimistic.
    c2.jpg cl.jpg c3.jpg bolt.jpg


    I am reading through the how to on the forum
    CLUTCHES 101-Part 1: the 400/550/600s with pics
    In there it mentions when changing the hub:
    Be sure to fit a NEW TAB WASHER upon reassembly.

    anyone have a pic or part number of what this looks like as would like to get it in ready for when i do the work.
     
  19. XJ650Chop

    XJ650Chop New Member

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    These were the springs i bought
    s-l500.jpg

    and the basket:
    bask1.PNG bask2.PNG

    have a new set of bolts on the way too as wont re use the ones in the basket above. just need to make sure i have the tab washer mentioned in the guide to replace.
     
  20. Rooster53

    Rooster53 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    So what torque wrench did you buy, what is the range?

    For most mechanical wrenches, the usable torque wrench working range is 20 percent to 100 percent of full scale. In electronic wrenches, that range is 10 percent to 100 percent of full scale.

    That's a statement form the net, but I would suggest 20% to 80% is the usable range particularly since home mechanics are not likely to have their torque wrench calibrated, and always stow it away at the lowest setting.
     

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