Crank Bearings?

So I have a XJ750X engine that's apart. The crank bearings have gone... missing. I know what the calculation calls for be to order but I have a full set of new blue bearings in hand. Could these be installed or do I have to drop big money buying the other colors? Also I remember seeing a chart once that gave the actual thickness of each color and I can't for the life of me find it again.

 

The colors correspond to specific measurements that set the clearance between the bearing shell and the crankshaft journals. If that clearance os incorrect the oil wedge that the crankshaft runs in will not develop. That leads to some very bad things happening.
You absolutely must use the correct color (size) bearings in each location.

In your situation I'd be inclined to think that this is a sign to clean and re-organize the garage.

 

isn't something etched in the lower case to figure the bearing size, this is beyond my pay grade

 

Scratched/scribbled/etched into the upper crankcase is the main journal saddle "sizes" (and, you need to view them from the front of the engine for them to be spatially correct). Stamped into the left crank journal counterweight is the crankshaft journal sizes. You subtract one from the other, that gives you the bearing "size" you need, which is then translated to a bearing "color"...........

http://www.xj4ever.com/catalog/frame-engine-id.pdf

 

And then you take measurements with plastiguage to make sure the original bearings still fit correctly.

 

On the subject of crankshaft bearings do the journals need to be checked with a vernier caliper to make sure they are the same diameter?

 

Just went around in circles with this same question earlier this week.
The shell is the subtraction of the case measurement (scribed in case) and the punched measurements on the crank (all in chacal's explanation in his pricelist on how to do it properly, or the service manual...which has the colour chart).
You can't measure the shells accurately with anything, square (vernier, micrometer) and you can't identify the shells by the number's stamped into the back of them and the colour is just not on them anymore so...
The trick is to definitely keep them in order and neat for refitting and if you read through the posts on crank shell bearing replacement, throughout the forum, you will find that it is done rarely on these bikes and if you read chacal's pricelist... you will also see why... mucho expensive!
So... I decided my shell bearings actually look pretty good even though they look quite blotchy and a bit weird here and there.
Good oil is the key I'm thinking.

 

Not really. You only really do that if the journals are damaged and need to be reground. They just don't wear unless something went horribly wrong and bits of metal went flying around inside the engine, or it sat with water in the crankcase for a long time. And then you want to use a micrometer for the measurement (or rather the machine shop doing the work will).

The plastigauge measurement of the bearing clearance is the important thing. That will tell you if the stock bearings are still in spec, or if you need to go to the next color.


As for the shell color, it can be hard to see, but there is usually a bit of color left. Use a strong light. The color marks are on the edge of each shell, at the bottom of the dip.

 

This is so very true.

And even more so.

There must be a translation somewhere in the archives of Yamaha Engineering that unlocks all the secrets, but I've never seen it. Some service manuals give a bearing measurement by color (for the rod bearings) while other, different service manuals give the measurements for the crank main bearings (but, no service manual gives these measurements for both types of bearings). And the tolerances between the different "colors" is incredibly tight. For example, the blue crank bearings are 1.5002 - 1.5006mm, while the black bearings are 1.4998 - 1.5002mm, and so on.

I've never heard of motorcycle cranks being "ground" (like in automobiles/trucks, i.e. Chevy/Ford/etc. V8's) since the range of bearing sizes available is not wide enough to accommodate any true grinding, and there isn't any standard "undersize" or "oversize" bearings available. And the main bearing saddle size (machined into the case) is also a factor n these engines, unlike most automotive engines, which don't seem to take that factor into account, at all. Of course, V8 engines aren't expected to live very long turning at 10K+ rpm's on a periodic or extended basis, either, like these engines do. But maybe Formula 1 engines are done in this same manner.......

But, whatever and however they did it, it seems to work.....I can't remember ever hearing about a crank or rod bearing "failure" (wear or damage, yes, but never a failure) in these engines, I recall seeing some Utube videos where people purposefully try to blow up the engines (drain all of the oil and run the engine at high speed) and even in such a situation it took a LONG time before seizure occurred (and I'll theorize that the seizure probably occurred in the piston/rings rather than the bearings).

Pretty remarkable engineering, with the drawback that we're sort of left in the dark about the "numbers". No crank or rod journal specs (diameters) are given, either.

The plastigage measurement is key, but, I don't think it's intended as a method of going to the "next color", for the reasons specified above. If the clearance is too big, you replace the bearing with the same "color" (size) as what the case/crank numbers indicate, and if a new bearing still doesn't reduce the clearance to specified, then Yamaha says to replace the crankshaft.

 

There are other ways though. So long as the clearance is correct it doesn't matter how you get there. Though you are correct that reinstalling a new bearing of the originally specified size is the first (and usually only) step. What I left out is the need to regrind the crankshaft journals to allow for the use of oversized bearings, or the use of metal redeposition and grinding to return the crank journals to their original specification. All of that is beyond what the home mechanic can do (and is not commonly needed), which is why I ommited that.

 

Metal redeposition - not normally used for any automotive krankshafts, let alone tight tollerance japanese howling machines, I wouldn't recommend it.
On the subject of measuring shell bearings - it is possible, and quite easy, you use a micrometer and shiny new ball bearing on the inside of the shell.
Once you've measured the shell bearing I'm not sure what you'd do with the information, other than to aid assembly/clearances setting. The Rover K series in the uk is similar, I allways measure top and bottom shells, sometimes even use used ones (if I can't get new ones to the right size) to get the right the clearance right.

 

Interesting replies I did not realise the cranksahft journals rarely need ground on the bikes. My father was a carpet loom mechanic and he taught me a lot about cars too when I was a kid and I knew car crankshafts got reground. Great forum this is the knowledge you have is great and Yamaha made a great series of engines when they designed the XJ range. I wonder who has the highest mileage XJ here? I watched a video recently of an XJ 900f rebuild on Youtube and the builder wrote 'the engine did not need any work it's an XJ.

 

I just used fancy talk for welding the crank journals. Common practice on all sorts of engines. I had no idea that the term referred to another specific process.

 

Aaah good one, bit like using a bore gauge. Excellent.

 

Just don't forget to measure the ball bearing first, and subtract after.
I've done that brain fart, and it costs a bit.

 

Good info. As stated I was aware on how to get the correct color sorted for the case but being in Canada by the time I pay exchange rate and shipping it's pretty crazy cost wise. Another site stated that the tolerances weren't that large between the bearings and that the Blue's were the tightest. That site suggested that a full set of Blue's could be used in an engine with some miles/wear. Also since I have a full set of NOS blue shells that I got in a parts lot it would have been nice to save the $$. I guess I'll just have to save the pennies and get the proper colors from Chacal or get another bottom end/crank.

 

Whoever wrote that advice about using the blue shells has no clue about how crank bearing tolernaces work, and that crank journals don't wear unless there is a lot of grit in the engine. If just using blue shells were a good idea, that's what would have been done at the factory. It would have saved Yamaha a lot of money.

 

That's true, the maximum size difference between any of the "colors" is 0.020mm, and it could be 0.012mm, depending on the individual shell that you have, since each bearing has a size (thickness) tolerance of 0.004mm.

That might be correct, or exactly opposite. The BLUE size bearings are specified to be 1.5002 - 1.5006mm, and I presume (but am not sure) that this is the overall thickness. The YELLOW size bearings are on the other end of the size spectrum, and they are 1.4860 - 1.4900mm thickness (again, if I am understanding their specifications properly, which is hard to do considering the radio-silence from the Imperial Yamaha Navy regarding these matters.....). A thicker bearing shell results in LESS clearance between the shell and the crank journal surface. So the Blue shells may very well be the tightest ones.


The journal oil clearance are 0.020 - 0.044mm (650 thru 900 engines). If you use shells which are too "tight", you'll wipe the babbit off in a big hurry. If the shells are too loose, you'll lose lots of oil pressure to the rest of the engine (in a best-case scenario).

 

Oil pressure is due to resistance against pump pressure in other words as I understand it if bearing clearances are too large there will be less resistance from pump pressure, is this what would reduce the oil wedge?

 

No I don't believe you need pressure at the bearing to form a wedge. However, if you loose all your oil down the nearest bearing, the rest will get starved. Result - scrap engine.

 

Exactly that. The wedge exists because the oil is there. If the bearings were sealed so the oil could not escape, the oil wedge would still form (same as it does in zero-pressure or low-pressure oiling systems (total loss, drip, oiling cups like my lathe has, etc.). The downside of that is the oil would no longer be able to cool the crankshaft sufficiently. Bearings would spin. Much badness following shortly thereafter.

Now if the engine were a two-stroke.....

 

Oiling cups - Myford ml7 kmoe?

 

Yes some engineering these bikes have, and some cost for replacement bearings that is why I will make sure I change the oil and filter regularly.

 

Like my MZ TS150 k-moe the first bike I had to get to work. Those Barum tyres were deadly in the wet. There was a cup fitted to the underside of the fuel tank cap for measuring the two stroke no seperate pump for the two stroke oil on that machine.

 

It's a Craftsman branded Altlas from the mid 50's. I'm saving up for new change gears (the ones I have are serviceable, but not for much longer.I have thought about just making them myself from bronze, but...so tedious), and a milling attachment (plenty good enough to suit my needs).

 

My ml7 has a milling attachment which I don't really need, but it was so cheap I couldn't pass it up. The Myford itself was a bargain, I allready had a Colchester Triumph, so the myford hasn't been used either - I really should sell it, but it doesn't eat anything.

 

Mine dosen't see as much use as I'd like it to. Dad was a machinist, so I keep it around in part for sentemental reasons, and in part because I really do enjoy making my own parts when it makes sense for me to.

 

I have 3 engines worth of shells.
2 x 33F and 1 x 5G2, according to the parts listing these guys both use the same part numbers for the shells/colours.

I went and purchased a sexy digital micrometer with a ball attachment and after zeroing out and doing a lot of testing in spots I ended up with this. (the last 2 on the page are odd balls in the engine I'm working on)

from these,








A whole lot of insanity it seems and the shells in the engine I am working on are basically all out of whack by the looks of things, but if I could just work out some sort of pattern... hmm hmm what do you think of these suppositions,

MAIN BEARING OIL CLEARANCE 0.040 - 0.064mm (0.024mm)

4H7-11416-01-00
5G2-11418-00-00 BLUE - 0.064 (0.032/shell) - 1.500mm

4H7-11416-11-00
5G2-11418-10-00 BLACK - 0.058 (0.029/shell) - 1.477mm

4H7-11416-21-00
5G2-11418-20-00 BROWN - 0.052 (0.026/shell) - 1.474mm

4H7-11416-31-00
5G2-11418-30-00 GREEN - 0.046 (0.023/shell) - 1.471mm

4H7-11416-41-00
5G2-11418-40-00 YELLOW - 0.040 (0.020/shell) - 1.468mm


Supposing that a BLUE is actually 1.500mm

must be a way of working this out you'd think.

 

From what I've read from people who have tried is that there is more than one manufacturer's part number for each color of bearing shell, and since those numbers were only used internally by the bearing producer, that makes it quite the puzzle to build a comprehensive list.
Keep at it though. A pattern may emerge with enough measuring and recording to enable the system to be figured out.

If you can't see the color bands on the sides of the shells, you can work out the what colors they are from the numbers on the case and the numbers on the crankshaft (if you remember what position the shells ame from, and which engine they are out of). That's what I did to find the correct shells for my case transplant a few years ago.

One thing to keep in mind as you measure is that the actual thickness of the shell can vary across its surface, and the actual clearance may change from the calculated clearance when everything is torqued down in the cases. So when you go to put the engine together you really do have to confirm the clearances using plastiguage.

 

I think I have to buy a bunch of plastigauge.
and...
Pay attention to where the shells come from next time I end up with a scrap engine and strip it down.

 

cds.......are those used shells that you are measuring? If so, it won't tell you much, and as k-moe states, those numbers on the back of the shells probably mean something, but what that meaning "is" may be unknown and unknowable.

One version of the 900 service manual actually gives the CRANKSHAFT bearing shell measurements...these same shells are used on all XJ650, XJ700, XJ750, and all XJ900RK, RL, N/FN, and F engines:

Blue: 1.5000 + 0.002 to + 0.006mm
Black: 1.5000 - 0.002 to + 0.002mm
Brown: 1.5000 - 0.002 to - 0.006mm
Green: 1.5000 - 0.006 to - 0.010mm
Yellow: 1.5000 - 0.010 to - 0.014mm


CON-ROD bearing dimensions for all XJ650 (except Turbo) and XJ750 air-cooled engines:

Blue: 1.5000 + 0.002 to + 0.006mm
Black: 1.5000 - 0.002 to + 0.002mm
Brown: 1.5000 - 0.002 to - 0.006mm
Green: 1.5000 - 0.006 to - 0.010mm

The con-rod #'s may be wrong, as they are duplicates of the crank numbers (excepting the yellow color "size", but, it is true that con-rod bearings never had a yellow "size", so it may be correct). ALSO.....these bearings may be the same for 700 air-cooled and 900 engines, but those rods have an oil-spray hole in their beam to lube the cylinder walls/piston skirts, and thus used a different upper rod bearing (with an oil hole), and may be the "same but different" bearing.

 

Of all the innovative things that Yamaha did, the color system for bearings is the only one that they really messed up with.

 

Yes all used, I went back and forth and attempted to find the point that wasn't worn between the same numbered shells. Pretty frustrating and a good trainer on the use of a micrometer with this granularity. One of the sets is out of one of the original engines I had and was dropped on the reluctor side of the crank, damaging it... needless to say the crank journals look like new and the shells do too... damn shame, which is why I decided to find a pattern. The engine I'm working on, in contrast, seems to have had odd ball shells tossed in as the pattern(shell numbers and amounts) doesn't match the sequence when you do the calculations([reverse(case)] - [crank numbers]).
Still all a bit of fun and I did find one shell that looked like it had colour on the side but... it was just the light haha.

That is some good info! I will be using it pre-plastiguage. Good one.
blue 1.506 - 1.502
black 1.502 - 1.498
brown 1.498 - 1.494
green 1.494 - 1.490
yellow 1.490 - 1.486

ahah found the manual page [edit] xj900rk_service.pdf on the xjcd page number 7-7. Nice one.

 

Hey there, this post is old but the info is timeless
I hope somebody is still around from time to time to look at this

I have a question that I would appreciate is somebody confirmed or denied if my idea is correct. I have ben working on my XJ600 and I have two engines that I can use in my project:

The original one - coming from the bike - I've measured the crankshaft tolerances with plastigauge and it is more or less even accross the board 0,070 - 0,080 and the bearings used are:
Black-Brown-Black-Black-Brown

I've had a set of Black, Brown and Green Shells to swap and check and unfortunatelly using the same color shells did not get me within the spec.


On my second enigne with Brown-Black - Green - Green - Green shells the bearings are also outside of the tolerance, a bit less though and one shell started flaking. In this case, new shells with the same color also did not get me within spec.

After doing some swapping and measuring, it seems a set of blue shells would get me right in the middle of spec tolerance.

The thing I am wondering about is if that is a good idea to swap the shells like that? Clearly, the crankshaft is worn, I could also try to look for another crankshaft but something tells me it might be a lottery.

Thanks in advance for any input.

 

Nice to see this post again, some good info there. One thing I would add is that crankshafts do wear out on these machines, and others. Granted they may run seemingly fine, but when stripped, inspected and measured you find that the original clearance is gone. And none of us want to rebuild something not perfect....
I suspect longer than spec distances between oil changes, fuel contamination, bits as mentioned, or maybe just big miles...

 

I do remember being unhappy with my outcome on this endeavour but I got close.
Lots of plastigauge and reassembling later and I was sort of within spec.
Painful but my bike runs well, so I'll take it.
You reminded me why I bought the fancy micrometer though, I was wondering why I had it.

 

How much is crank worn? When engine was taken apart it was probably running good. Are you going to be redlining this engine? Thicker oil can be your friend.

 

The bike did run, I split it in order to fix the starter clutch and as I was already there, I wanted to check the crankshaft and bearings. I did not measure the shaft journals yet, but I have a micrometer and can do it. However, as far as I know Yamaha does not give any reference point for crankshaft wear. Measured with plastigauge and it is around 0,075 - 0,08 across all journals (see picture). As I wrote putting the same color shells did not bring it back to spec. There is a chance a set of Blue ones might get it within tolerances or at lest very close to. The crankshaft itself looks perfect, I had a shop check it on v blocks and polish it. I also have another engine that I bought for parts, and it turned out its shaft is in better condition and a set of 5x blue shells will get it almost right in the middle of the range.

I talked to friend who is a car mechanic and he said that 99% it is possible to use thicker shells to get in the tolerances, however he has never worked on morocycle engines and I would like just to be extra sure before I start buing parts.

 

Main bearings (and big ends for that matter) don't wear uniformly all over,the inner mains wear on the sides of the two centre big ends, the outer ones on opposite sides (this should tell you that the crank actually runs out of straight -a consequence of under balancing). Big ends wear on the crank inner side surface. A good visual inspection will tell you what's going on. The shell bearing is narrower than the journal, always - so you get a witness mark, and a step if it's worn. Here is where you measure with your micrometer - the difference is how much it's worn - expect a thou or two at worst if the engine seemed to run ok, more and you will hear a rumbly main, rattle on overrun is big ends.
Changing shells to reclaim a worn crank might work, but it is a fudge, and not something most engineers are comfortable with, if anyone asks me, my answer is always "so it's worn now, do you expect it to improve with use?"

 

I've looked at the old shells and before I measured them with plastigauge, I actually hoped they would be OK to be re-used. They did not look all that bad. I would propably leaft them if they were on the max tolerance or even slightly over the limit. I know that some bike manufacturer specify the tolerance and a service limit (Honda). On the other hand, the the engine is already split, a set of gaskets is already on my shelf, last year I replaced the piston rings, and completely re-build the head including re-grindig the valves and valve seats. To me it's jsut too much effort put into that engine to leave it as it is. The gods of mechanics would punish me for that, I am sure