TURN SIGNAL RELAY

read the posts on here but I have a problem not listed. I made sure 1156 bulbs are in all my signals. tested each light with 12 v. the all come on. the only way I can get them th flash is to pull the relay connector off and put it on 1 conneteor at a time and the connector is only slid on 1/8th inch then they work, cancel and every thing is fine. but push the connector all the way on and theres a click from the relay but no lights. I shined up the terminals but still have the problem. Relay bad? any suggestions?

 

i just replaced my relay today with an electronic one for nine bucks dont have the auto canelor anymore but that works for me. but any way you might take off your relay and pry the housing off and check the points mine was so rusted is why i got a new one beyond cleaning the contacts but you might try it and see what hapens.

 

Sounds like your flasher pigtail is worn out/dirty. I'd look at that. Replace it if needed.

 

turns out it was the cancelling unit. I unplugged it and they work fine. I checked with the local yamashop no longer available. got 1 comming from fle bay for 9.99 . I hope its a good one.

 

I read/heard (not sure which) somewhere that the canceling unit off of another model will work on our XJs. Chacal, want to chime in on this one?

 

They're ALL the same, except for XJ700's.

The turn signals are supposed to be able to function properly with the self-canceller disconnected. Hopefully that is the cause of the problems!

 

another cancel unit installed, working fine thanks guys.

 

Hey all. New owner of an old bike. Here is the situation. The PO replaced the rear turn signals with some smaller low watt types. Since then the darn things won't flash. Fair enough replace the flasher relay with an electronic one right? OK tried that, two different part numbers. 3 prong same configuration as needed.
My question is does anyone have a part/model number for the electronic flasher relay they have succesfully used on their bike?
Thanks

 

Hi All,
I just installed one of these on my bike. I love it. It has an adjustable flash rate, it's super small, was easy to install (goes right in to the existing harness) and works with anything I have hooked up to it.


Been using it for a few weeks and it has been flawless.

I got mine of Ebay.
Here is a link if anybody else wants one.

Electronic flasher.
Peter.

 

Going from the front of the bike twoards the fuse box, I have 3 boxes. One silver box (4 pin), a black box (3 pin labled C, L and B) and another silver box. My turn signals are not working and I am trying to troubleshoot the problem. Can anyone tell me what these three boxes are?

 

Hey Peter....does this flasher still allow the use of the self-canceller feature?

 

Hey Chacal, I have not been able to get the self-canceling feature to work with anything but a stock relay on the stock turn signals.
One of these days I am going to open that little self canceling thing up and see just what makes it tick. (pun intended) All the years I spent in school learning about electronics, I gott'a be able to figure it out pretty easy.
I am sure that once I get it worked out, there will be a few thousand people wanting to know the secret of how it works.

Well.....off to the shop. You have inspired me!

Peter

 

Thanks for the photo. I was under the impresssion however that some people were using standard automobile flasher relay units that they were able to pick up at the local autoparts store. If no one has that part number then i guess its off to the auction site to find one like yours.

 

Hey Thirty! You would be correct in your impression. You can use a standard automotive 2 pin flasher relay. You lose the use of your self canceling unit but, and here is my assumption, we all ought to be conditioned to turning off our blinkers by force of habit. I don't rely upon my self-canceling option (at least not anymore, since I swapped out for the aftermarket relay), you never know when it will fail. I don't have any particular part number to recommend but you should be just fine with a standard relay, just be sure it is a two pin configuration. Why not upgrade to an electronic unit while your at it? Then you can run LEDs!

 

So instead of a three pin that plugs in a two pinner would work. I am looking into electronics flasher and the auto cancel is not a concern. I figure my truck doesn't have it why should my bike..Anyways my problem is after two different models of flasher units and neither one worked i figured i would try and see what others were using specificlly. I even attempted to to use jumpers on one of the ones i purchased to insure it wasn't just a pin mismatch issue, but no dice.
Since i am not using it, do i have to unplug the canceling unit for the system to work with the automotive flasher?

 

You do not have to disconnect the self-canceling unit. It won't harm a thing to let it sit there (unless you really want to free up some real estate). I am currently using a thermal two pin unit I sourced from Car Quest, p/n FSH552.

 

Thanks Robert. After you said that a two pin worked i picked one up at Advanced Auto parts. I knew the configuration i was looking for (what pin was load, pos , neg ) but the three pin ones i tried didnt work. So i found a two pin relay with the correct load/pos terminial configuration and sure enough good to go. I guess in the 3 pin electronic flashers that have the lamp out indicater some how even if you have the pos and load pins in the right place the electronics in it are looking for another signal on the neg terminal.
Anyways for future referance to anyone it was the house brand Part No.
EL12. Two pin electronic flasher relay from Advanced autoparts that worked for me.

 

I have tried everything to get my lower watt signals to work. I tried every flasher unit from checker (schucks). I just bought that unit the guy at the beginning of the post recommends. I sure hope it works!!!! I'm ready to get on the road.

 

Greetings Robert! Thank you for the insight regarding the two pin flasher.
I recently purchased a three pin flasher at the local Auto parts store, plugged in onto the pigtail and got no flashing at all. BTW I drive an '81 XJ650H Maxim and love it. I have had the flasher cut out on me several times in the last few years now. In each instance I unplugged the flasher, pryed off it's plastic cover and changed electrolytic capacitor inside. That fixed it for a while; however, electrolytics don't do well in hot areas like right over top of an engine. The electrolyte in them tends to dry up or leak then the capactor shorts out internally. Also, electrolytics can dry out just from sitting around too long. I just checked a 1000 uF capacitor that I recently bought from Radio Shack and it was shorted internally. I found a source for an OEM flasher but they want a lot of bucks for it. Anyhow, I would imagine its capacitor is shorted if its new old stock. Guess I head over to Pep Boys and see if I can find a two pin flasher.
Hey, good luck with your '81 XJ650H. It's a great bike!

 

The bike I just bought has the cancel unit unplugged. Not sure why the PO did that.

 

Just for snots and grins, the 3 pin system requires a power input, a ground return and a signal out which is not compatible with our Yamaha system. The 2 pin system only needs the input voltage (from the signal switch) and the output to the lights (ground through the bulb). This is why the three pin units do not work on our bikes.
Corner27, the self canceling system is typically unplugged for two reasons, one to check the flasher relay and two to isolate it as a potential problem for a no flash gripe. It is possible that your system is good or bad. Plug it in and see what happens. Can't hurt anything. It will only work if you have the factory flasher installed however.

 

I like the self cancel feature but mine seems to work sometimes then not at all the next time I use the signals? Is there anything that can be cleaned? or for that matter what does the self cancel unit look like I would al be up to taking it apart and clean, heck even replace components(if available from radio shack n such).

 

You can pull the flasher unit apart and clean it out (mine tend to be filled with rust so here is to hoping yours aren't). The relay is fairly simple but I have not been able to figure out what signal is furnished to the relay by the self canceling unit that turns it off. I think is supplies a ground that shunts the stored power in the capacitator, effectively bleeding off the charge. You can replace the capacitator and the resistor but once the contact point arms rust off, it's done.
As for the repairability of the self canceling unit, it is sealed shut with potting (I think it is some form of epoxy). I've not gotten one open and won't be able to futz with one any time soon (school is back in session). You are welcome to try and open yours but if it's working, I wouldn't.
Best of luck.

 

I finally got around to opening up one of the self canceling units on an XJ.

Here is a schematic of whats inside.

 

Cool..........but, the wire colors coming off all the XJ-series self-cancellers are as follows:

Yellow with green tracer
Yellow with red tracer
White with green tracer #1
White with green tracer #2
Black solid
Brown solid

with:
the yellow w/green tracer wire going to the flasher relay
the white w/green tracer #1 going to the speedo reed switch
the white w/green tracer #2 going to the nowhere(really!)
the black solid going to common ground
the brown solid going to the fusebox signal circuit power
the yellow w/red tracer going to the turn signal switch



Now, never minding the differences in wire colors, can anyone hazard a guess as to how the self-canceller works in relation to the flasher relay....or, in other words, why won't aftermarket mechanical or solid-state flasher relays work with the self-canceller? What is so "special" about the Yamaha flasher relay?

Does the self-canceller provide a power feed to the flasher relay or does it provide a ground path or ?????. I understand that the self-canceller uses both a time and distance input to "decide" when to cancel the function of the flasher relay, but how (what action) does it take to achieve that?

Seeing as how the flashers still works without the self-canceller hooked up, it surely can't be providing the power feed......

 

Welasercut, were you able to get the manufacturing identification on the diodes? Any markings at all on them? Thanks for the effort, I'm still puzzled as to what the white wire goes to since there isn't one listed on any of my schematics. How did you crack that unit open? Did you cut it open or use a grinder?
Chacal, I might just have you shoot your burned out canceler to me for further diagnosis.
Together, we will get to the bottom of this puzzle! Mark my words!

 

Hey Robert, I cut the unit open very carefully with a sharp knife. It is in a rubber like potting compound that a lot of electronics manufacturers used back 20 or more years ago. If you get it warm in a pot of hot water it cuts easily.
3M makes something similar today.
The diodes are ceramic and blue with a white stripe. Nothing special as far as I can tell. Not even voltage specific Zener Diodes.

Not to be a know it all here, but the wires coming off the turn signal cancel unit are exactly as I labeled them. I have it right here in my hand.
They culminate in to a black plug which then goes to a black plug on the right hand wire loom. (main wire harness)
The wires on my bike main wire harness are Blue/yellow, white/blue, light blue, and white. Go figure?
Strange thing is that there are 5 wires on the signal cancel unit and only 4 on my wire harness. Yet it worked before I went to a solid state flasher unit.
The wire that is not used is the black/red on the signal cancel unit.

The manual shows exactly what Chacal stated.

U dunno?

Here is a picture of the same unit I took off Ebay.

The timer circuit is easy to figure out. The diodes simply allow the timer in the computer to shut the signal relay off after 10 seconds. As for the distance measure of 150 meters, that has to be controlled through the tachometer some how as the speedometer is mechanical as far as I can see.
Those Yamaha designers were smart!

Peter

 

Okay, I've updated my previous post above with some additional research findings:

1) the self-canceller actually has TWO white with green tracer wires coming out of it and running to a WHITE 6-position connector block.

2) as mentioned, the CONNECTOR block on the canceller wires is white, not black, as is it's mating connector block on the harness side.

3) the connector block on the harness side is also (of course) a 6-position unit, but only 5-positions are occupied; the aforementioned 2nd white w/green tracer wire has no connector pin on the harness side.....and there is only one white w/green tracer wire that is in the harness wiring (and which goes to the speedo reed switch).

By the way, I have about 15 of the self-cancellers here that I reviewed, all of them off (USA) XJ bikes, so I'm pretty confident in these observations.

Thus, a couple of new observations:

a) the schematic that welasercut has provided and the image of the self-canceller above with the BLACK connector block is not an original (USA) self-canceller from an XJ-series bike....it may be off a different model bike, or a later model bike, or may even be a factory-superceded part. The clues are the 5 (instead of 6 wires), different colored wires, and the black connector block. All USA XJ-series harnesses use a white connector block on the harness side, and connector blocks are always the same colors on both sides.

b) the distance measurement IS measured thru the speedo reed switch, not via the tachometer. Each speedo cable revolution is "counted" by the reed switch and "X" number of counts determines the 150' trigger point for that self-canceller "cut-off" parameter.

c) Note how Peter's (welasercut) self-canceller and his description of the harness-side connector and wiring show the same "one less" wiring situation----5 wires coming out of the self-canceller, and only 4 wires (= one less) on the main wire harness connector (leaving the one position blank in the harness-side connector block).

d) I assume that your self-canceller came off of your 1981 XJ750RH Seca, Canadian model, eh? It may be that the Canadian models used a different harness and self-canceller than the US models did, for some god-only-knows reason...........


The mystery deepens......stay tuned for the exceiting conclusion, sometime, someday...

 

Ok, after reading this, i'm still tryin to figure out if i can run L.E.D.s on my 85xj700. Is there anyone here that's done this? If so, what will i need?

 

You can run them. You just need to convert to an electronic flasher which will not support the self-canceling feature built into the bike. Small price to pay if you ask me.

 

ok next ? where is this darn thing??? ive looked all over my bike an havent found any thing that looks even close to a flasher...and if at all possable does any one know what part # will work for it? i work at advance auto parts so comin up with one isnt an issue....hehehe

 

If you look closely at the flasher's electromagnetic coil, it has been double wound. On the inside is a super fine wire wrapped around its core. Then it has a much larger wire wrapped around that. It appears that the cancelling unit saturates the armature of the electromagnetic coil via the 'C' terminal to cause it to quit flashing, i.e. the cancellor unit supplies the flasher with an external current to latch the electromagnetic coil which prevents further pulsations until it's reset by pushing the turn signal switch.

To test this theory, you could hook 12v+ to the B terminal, and a load (two 1156 light bulbs) to the L terminal. With those merrily flashing away, apply 12v+ to the C terminal and see if the flasher ceases to operate.

Hmmmm.... It's early enough. I think I'll run out and try it. Be right back.

 

And we're back.

I removed the tank, unplugged the flasher, and ran jumper leads from the flasher unit to the pigtail for the B and L terminals. I then turned the key to the on position and flipped the turn signal flasher for a right-hand turn... blink, blink, blink... you get the idea. It works (as it should because you can run a regular two-prong 552 flasher in its stead).

I then ran two jumper wires to the battery: one to the positive terminal and one two the negative terminal. I then turned on the turn signal switch and it began to flash. I hooked the positive lead to the C terminal and all flashing stopped. As soon as I removed the lead, it began flashing again. The only way to make it fully stop was to press the turn signal switch in.

I then tried the same scenario with the negative lead. The flasher made a horrible buzzing sound which I'm sure wasn't good for it.

So, my theory seems to be correct about saturation. Now, how can we build a flasher that will duplicate what we've learned? I think I may know... Time to ponder this a bit.

 

I'll need to diagram what we have collectively discovered so far (I can't invision things in my head, a great weakness of mine). Sounds like you have found the key Gamuru! Let's see where this goes.

 

Don you are a genius,

Now, the +12V signal that the canceller sends to the flasher via the C terminal.....this signal (which ceases the flasher operation) only occurs once the canceller has "calculated" the "quit the signalling nonsense" via it's distance (speedo reed switch) and time (????) calculations, correct?

If so, all we need is a "generic relay" that views a 12V input on it's "C" (or equivalent) terminal as a method for turning off the solid-state flasher workings.....what type of device/circuit would do that?

The mystery seems to be pecking away at it's shell, and soon the light of a new day will be upon us.......

 

Get a 2 pronged flasher... Cheap ass Auto parts one is FINE .
Connect the 2 brown wires to Flasher prongs and it Works!
No fuss No muss.
You Will have to cancel by hand, but it's unlikely the Yama thing worked previously.

 

Hey Don....see if I've got this correct so far:

The self-canceller outputs a 12V signal to
the flasher ALL the time to keep it from flashing,
and it's only the WITHDRAWL of that 12V signal
to the C terminal on the flasher that allows it to
flash.

What about after the turn signal lever is
punched inward while in the center position? What
happens after that operation is performed as far
as the output from the self-canceller to the flasher?
Still 12V?

Or does pushing the turn signal switch cancel all
power to the relay, the self-canceller, both, or neither?

 

I'm still working on it, but I believe that you've got it about right. I built a custom flasher while at work and installed it for the ride home. It didn't work (the cancelling part), but I think I know why. I'm going to fix what I believe to be wrong with it and try again... hopefully tomorrow. I'll report my findings then.

 

don,

any discoveries?

 

Len; Looks like Don really has a handle on this now. I'll betcha anything the 12v "holding" circuit gets shut off along with everything else when you punch the button in. I can't imagine the whole thing being "hot" all the time-- it wouldn't need to be, just when you turn a signal on.

 

A prototype was built and sent to Len (chacal) for testing. Here are the results:

I believe we are looking at electronic LED-rated flasher relays to see if one can be modified to work with the self-canceler unit on these bikes.

Right now, we have a like-OEM electronic flasher that will work as a stock flasher replacement. I'm waiting to hear from Len which direction we will go next, whether it be with an LED-ready flasher or offer both or neither.

 

I found this information on the turn signals auto cancelling feature:

I recently restored an '81 XS650 and the turn signals would not cancel automatically like they are supposed to. I immediately suspected the little black box that is the cancelling unit. Having several other '81-'81 Yamaha's to test with I tried the suspect unit on another bike and it worked perfectly. Next I pulled the speedo out of it's cover and found the sensor was not in place as it should be. It is a black plastic piece with two wires attached and pops into a slot just below the speedo lightbulb. The sensor is a magnetic reed switch that closes when a magnetic field comes close to it. The speedo works by spinning a round magnet inside a cup attached to the speedo needle and the turn signal sensor sits close to this magnet and switches on/off as the magnet rotates telling the turn signals that the bike has traveled so much distance. After repositioning the sensor and having it still not work I looked closer and saw that the reed switch was broken. The reed switch is sealed inside a glass tube with an inert gas so the contacts never corrode or get dirty. I found a new reed switch at an electronics shop for about $1.50 and soldered it back in place, assembled the speedo and still my signals would not cancel.

The whole history of repairing this bike had been one of finding odd problems where every possible part had already been replaced by someone (usually incorrectly) except for the actual failed part. I decided the sensor being out of place and broken only indicated that someone had already tried their best to fix the problem and broken it in the process.

I observed that all of my other Yamaha's will cancel the turn signal when the key is turned off and back on again. This particular one did not do that, turn the key off and back on and the signals started flashing again -- aha, a clue! I took the switch apart and saw how it works. A slider switch connects left or right signal and stays slid to whichever side you last selected. Only when you push the turn signal button in does it re-center the slider. There is a copper plate under the selector lever with copper leaves on either side of the inner part of the lever. Looking at a good switch I saw that these leaves do NOT contact the lever except for while the lever is pushed fully left or right - on the malfunctioning bike these copper leaves were touching the lever all the time. It turns out this copper piece is a switch to allow you to start the turn signals working the same direction again even after the canceller has stopped them. With the copper leaves touching all the time the canceller thought I was holding the lever in left or right position and so it kept the signals flashing. I simply bent them out a bit to the proper location (so the lever just touches them when pushed fully left or right) and finally everything works perfectly.

 

That sounds about right. The turn signal switch is just a momentary switch.

 

Sorry to chime in so late in the game, but I have a question. The flasher unit is designed so that when you close a switch it starts blinking until you either open the switch or until it receives a signal from the canceling unit, correct?

Once the canceling unit is activated it puts a high 12v on the 3rd pin of the flashing unit, and keeps that signal there until the blinker switch is opened by the rider pressing it, correct?

IF this is correct, then you could say the entire system acts like a normal blinker relay that is controlled by an scr. With an scr you apply power and it stays engaged even after the input is unengergised. The only way to unlatch it is to remove power. If your power to the SCR was controlled via a NOR gate when you apply power to the 2nd input to the NOR it would cut it's output.

If this is the case, part count would be low (SCR, NOR, a few transistors, and a 'normal' blinker relay), and could be made quite small. I wonder if it could be small enough to fit into the existing socket, with a new 'normal' socket on top...
I'm going to go see about drawing a schematic...

Also...you could put any blinker relay in...one for LEDs or normal lights.

 

Maybe an SCR isn't the optimal choice. Still working on it. Did anyone ever figure out how the canceling unit is deactiaved?