The dreaded oil thread for a new owner

Jim_Vess · May 31, 2008

Rick,

Sorry about the "parroting" comment. It was a bad choice of words.

Twenty years ago, I used Castrol GTX exclusively in my '68 Camaro Z28 and probably still would if I still owned that car (I wish I still did. I sold it for $6K then and it would be worth close to $40K today).

Now when the heck is Spinalator gonna start sharing his popcorn?

cycleman · Jun 1, 2008

This sounds a lot like a bunch of guys sitting around arguing about which brand of beer is better. One good thing about the web you at least can't here the shouting or nashing of teeth.

Brand type or dino/sync doesn't matter. A lot of it is marketing hype.

What does is it designed for use in a wet clutch equipped motorcycle. As long as it meets the JASO motorcycle standards and the weight range falls in line with what the manufacture recommends that's all that needs to be said.

All I'm going to say is that you really have to treat you and your bike to a modern good brand of true motorcycle synthetic motor oil. The whole bike works better with guieter startups, easier shifting, gains in idle speed ( you have to slow it down slightly), a few more miles per hour at a given RPM and so on. It is amazing stuff.

Maybe we all should lighten up and not take ourselves to seriously. If we all did exactly the same thing it would be a pretty boring place.

Jim_Vess · Jun 1, 2008

If you think this thread is interesting, just wait until we get started on the "mine's bigger" thread.

MiCarl · Jun 1, 2008

cycleman said:

A lot of it is marketing hype.
Click to expand...

BINGO!

cycleman said:

....a few more miles per hour at a given RPM and so on. It is amazing stuff.
Click to expand...

FOUL! The gear ratio is the same no matter what oil you put in.

RickCoMatic · Jun 1, 2008

My concern is that the Synthetic boast of being to be able to provide protection well beyond what we'd consider a routine oil change interval.

Take my '04 Chevy Monte Carlo for example.
Chevy recommends Mobil-1 Synthetic Oil 5W/30.
Chevy says that Mobil-1 in the Monte will outlast any other Oil and doesn't need to be changed until the Oil Life Monitor flashes on and indicates the current fill has has had it.

Depending upon how you drive that interval might extend to over a year on the same Oil.
Despite the claim of not needing to change the Synthetic ... I change it at
5 or 6-thousand mile increments and reset the Monitor.

We should be advising the Membership to CHANGE their oil in the bikeks not run it longer.
The engines work hard and some "Use" if they are aged, which all are in calendar years, but some not so in terms of mileage.

My thoughts are to advise the Member making an inquiry about what Oil to use to do the best thing for his ride.
That's why I recommended the Oil I do.

Recommending something other than what I know is good protection and best for the clutches is why I indicated the brand and viscosity I have always mentioned.

I'm not a stockholder of Castrol.
Not their pitchman, either.
Just a satisfied customer and have been for a long, long time.

When I had my MGB ... all I ran was Quaker State 10/40 in it.
I drove that MGB nearly 300,000 miles on it with only two rebuilds in its lifetime.
Those were the fun days!

spinalator · Jun 1, 2008

Ammo for the next salvo!

I had this linked from about 5 or 6 years ago, and it may be out of date, but I (and my inner troll) will post this for your consumption, and look forward to your comments and stuff. This has not been updated since 2002 and was on a VFR site. The author is a retired oil chemist and motorcyclist. http://www.vfrworld.com/tex_vfr/tech/oil.htm

Brief Introduction

Along with keeping things adjusted properly, using a good quality motor oil and changing it regularly is the key ingredient to keeping your motorcycle running happily for a long time. You cannot go wrong using one of the various "motorcycle-specific" oils, now available also from some of the major oil companies. However, many motorcyclists object to the higher prices of those oils and for convenience prefer to buy oil at their local automotive supply store, which is a still a good option. This article will provide you with information to make an informed choice.

Price of Motor Oil

So how do you make an intelligent choice? Will $1.00 a quart automotive oil work okay or do you need to pay $4 to $12 a quart for "motorcycle" oil? You have to answer that question yourself, but here are a few facts to help you make the best decision for your situation.

The owner's manual of your motorcycle probably says something very similar to the following:

Use only high detergent, premium quality motor oil certified to meet API Service Classification SF or SG (shown on container). The use of additives is unnecessary and will only increase operating expenses. Do not use oils with graphite or molybdenum additives as they may adversely affect clutch operation." That's pretty clear. But what do you do since automotive oils now say on the container "meets SL Service?" That's easy! By consensus of the API and the manufacturers, the current SL classification meet all requirements of SF, SG, SH, and SJ plus all earlier API gasoline categories. The current SL actually offers some additional benefits over the older classifications. So, if the motorcycle requirement says "SG", be confident that "SL" indeed meets that requirement.
The Vanishing Zinc and Phosphorous

It is a fact than many SL oils now contain lower levels of ZDDP (the zinc/phosphorous extreme pressure additive) and that is a big concern to a lot of motorcyclists. ZDDP is a last resort protection against metal-to-metal contact. Whereas a few years ago the zinc level was typically 0.12% to 0.15% in SG automobile oils, some SL oils now have as little as 0.05%. However, this in itself may not be a problem since normal operation of a motorcycle on the street would never result in metal-to-metal contact any more than it would in your automobile. Remember these SL oils meet the most demanding protection requirements of modern, high-reving, powerful 4-stroke automobile engines (among others). And there is no reason to believe the lubrication requirements of street motorcycles is measurably different.

However, if you race you probably need higher levels of ZDDP and should use appropriate oils or ZDDP additives.

NEW Motorcycle Oils

Seeing an opportunity to bridge this perceived gap between motorcycle oils and automotive oils, many traditional oil marketers like Castrol, Mobil, Pennzoil, Quaker State, and Valvoline now sell their own "motorcycle" oils at very competitive prices, and alongside their automotive oils. I have found them at several of my local autoparts stores and even at one WalMart store. Call or visit the auto supply stores in your area and ask. Even if they don't routinely stock them, they probably can order a case for you at substantial savings because their mark-up is generally quite a bit less than motorcycle shops.

Although not a motorcycle oil, oils with the designation "Racing Oil" are not intended for street use, generally meets "SG" requirements and has somewhat higher levels of additives, like ZDDP. An example is Valvoline's VR1 Racing oil available in 20w50 weight. These should work fine in our motorcycles.

Energy-Conserving Oils

Some are concerned that the new "energy-conserving" motor oils may have "friction modifiers" which will cause clutch slippage. Since that is a legitimate concern it is best to use only oils which are NOT "energy-conserving for motorcycles with wet clutches." Read the back of the container. It clearly identifies this. In general, only the very lighter oils, like 10w30, 10w20, 5w20, are energy-conserving. All 5w40, 5w50, 10w40, 15w40, 15w50, and 20w50 oils which I have found are not energy-conserving and can be recommended for general motorcycle use.

It is commonly mis-stated that "SJ and SL oils have friction modifiers which will cause wet clutch slippage." In reality, all oils have friction modifiers, that's how they work. ZDDP itself is a friction modifier. The real issue is to avoid getting the friction so low, with very thin oils containing extra amounts of friction modifiers, that clutches will slip under normal use. Stay away from energy conserving oils and you should be fine, if your clutch is in good working order.

Synthetic or Conventional

What about synthetic vs. semi-synthetic vs. "dino" oils? All motor oils have several special additives formulated into the oil to protect from corrosion and wear, plus detergents to keep combustion products in the oil. For normal (non-extreme) use, "dino" oils protect as well as the synthetic oils. However, if you plan to race, run at extremely high temperatures, or plan to extend oil-change intervals, or simply want the best, then a synthetic or semi-synthetic may be your best choice.

Real World Test Results

Are there any "real world" examples of long motorcycle engine life using automotive oils? There is a good one in the June 1996 issue of Sport Rider magazine in a report called the "100,000 mile Honda CBR900RR." The owner used conventional Castrol GTX oil, 10W40 in the winter, 20W50 in the summer. He changed it every 4,000 miles, changing the filter every OTHER oil change. No valve clearance adjustments were required after the initial one at 16,000 miles. And a dyno test against the same model with only 6,722 miles showed torque and horsepower virtually identical. The 100,000 mile bike was even used for some racing. In a subsequent follow-up, the same CBR had passed 200,000 miles and was still going strong! Plus, many motorcyclists have emailed me with their very positive results using nothing but automotive oils for years in a variety of rides. Oils have changed over the past 10 years, but that just means we need to be more careful in our choices.

Frequency Asked Questions

What is a reasonable oil-change interval?

Most manuals recommend not to exceed 8,000 miles after break-in. But short-trip riding is considered severe service and the most common oil change interval is 3,000 to 4,000 miles. However, a long trip is the easiest service for the oil and going 6,000 to 8,000 miles between changes while on a cross-country ride is routine. Also, the use of synthetic oils can easily double the oil-change interval.

Will changing the oil even more frequently, like every 1,000 miles, prolong the life of the engine?

Not very likely, because even at 3,000 to 4,000 miles, the oil and additives are not degraded very much. Changing more often just wastes money.

What about the claims that motorcycle-specific oils contain "special polymers which are resistant to breakdown caused by motorcycle transmissions?

Oils usually require the addition of polymers, called VI improvers, to create a multi-viscosity oil, like 10W-40. Whether it is a motorcycle oil or an automotive oil, all polymers are subject to some degradation in the transmission. Full synthetic oils tend to have less polymer than conventional oils and therefore degrade less.

Why are motorcycle oils so much more expensive than automotive oils?

Cost of doing business is higher per quart of motorcycle oil. Large oil companies make so much more product that their profit margin per quart does not have to be so high. That's why the newer motorcycle oils being marketed by some oil companies are only marginally more expensive than their automotive counterparts.

What about the claims by specialty motorcycle oil manufacturers, that their oil is better?

That's a good one. Next time you hear that line, simply ask, "What evidence do you have?" I've never seen any. If you do get any, please let me know! I don't believe that there is any.
Now, armed with all this information, you are ready to make your choice between automotive oil and motorcycle oil. Either will work fine. Your motorcycle probably cannot tell any difference. There are many riders, the author included, who use nothing but good quality automotive motor oils. There also are many who use nothing but motorcycle oils. All indications are that both choices work equally well because motorcycle engines are designed so well that the oil really doesn't make any measurable difference. As long as it meets SG, SH, SJ, or SL service requirements.
Addendum
In the past several years, various reports went around regarding independent studies that showed "automotive" oils that are not energy-conserving (EC) work just as well as motorcycle-specific oil and in many cases better. In former revisions to this article I listed the oils I found locally (Houston, Tx) that were 10w40 and heavier and not energy-conserving. I've discontinued that as it adds little value. All one needs to do is look at the back of the oil container where the lower half of the identification circle will have the words "energy conserving" if it is. Don't use those in wet clutch motorcycle applications, as they may cause clutch slippage. If the lower half of that circle is blank, as all 10w40 and heavier oils should, that means it is NOT energy conserving and should be fine in wet clutch applications.

Heavy-Duty Oils

My favorite oils and the ones I most mostly recommend for motorcycle use, are the "heavy-duty" oils. They are commonly misunderstood, and often referred to as "diesel oils." They are NOT energy conserving, have higher zinc levels, as high as 0.16%, and by virtue of their multi-duty have a better engine protection package than an oil that is only rated "SL". These heavy-duty oils are rated SJ or SL, plus CH-4. They are currently closer in formulation to the motorcycle specific oils and to the "SG" oils that many motorcycle makers recommend. Following are some examples of these oils, generally 15w40 oils by industry convention. There may be several other 15w40 oils that I am not familiar with.

Castrol RX Super 15w40
Chevron Delo 400 15w40
Mobil Delvac 1300 Super 15w40
Pennzoil Long-Life 15w40
Quaker State 4X4 Synthetic Blend 15w40
Shell Rotella-T 15w40 (my personal favorite)
SuperTech 2000 (WalMart) 15w40
Valvoline All Fleet 15w40
Castrol Syntec Blend Truck and 4X4 15w40
Full Synthetics - for Maximum Protection
For years Mobil One 15w50 has been a favorite of motorcyclists. In recent years it has gone from its original formulation to an improved SJ "TriSynthetic", and more recently as SL "SuperSyn." several of us have received conflicting information on this new "flavor" of Mobil One, but the consensus appears to be that the new SuperSyn has additional friction modifiers and may no longer be a good choice for motorcycles. However, I have heard from several VFR owners still using it with favorable results. Therefore, YMMV. Mobil naturally recommends their motorcycle Mobil One.

A fairly new player in the synthetic market is Shell with Rotella-T Full Synthetic 5w40. It is not energy-conserving and according to Shell performs competitively with Mobil Delvac One full synthtetic, which means it offers even more protection than does Mobil One 15w50. A number of motorcyclists have reported to me good results so far with his use of the new Synthetic Rotella-T. I put it in my own VFR at my last oil change.

Delvac One should be an excellent motorcycle oil but is generally available only at truck stops or in commercial quantities. For those who may have connections with a long-haul trucking operation, where Delvac One is known to be used in oil change intervals up to 150,000 miles, or even more, you may want to try it if the price is right.

There are a number of other synthetic and semi-synthetic oils available and I have no reason to believe they are in any way inferior. Just follow the advice and use one which is not energy conserving.

Important Note: Be sure and use the recommended viscosity range, e.g. 10w40, 20w50, etc. for the climate in your area. In general, to protect your motor use the heaviest oil you can that still meets the manufacturer's guidelines. For example, 20w50 is better in warm weather than 10w40, because it gives you a thicker oil cushion between bearing surfaces at operating temperature. For racing, a thinner oil will offer less resistance and thus more power, but will offer less protection.

I personally believe in these oils and use nothing else in my motorcycles. As always, you have to make your own, informed decisions.

A Note on Warranties

Since it is generally accepted within the industry that current classifications also meet all older ones, there can legally be no warranty issue. In fact, some oils actually say on the package "SG" in addition to SH , SJ and SL. However, if any of the very newest motorcycles specify oil meeting the new JASO, or other motorcycle-specific oil specifications, and no reference to "SG" or similar automotive specs, then you may have a potential warranty issue so behave accordingly.

And finally, it is gratifying to have received so many emails the past three (3) years from motorcyclists finding this oil and oil filter information useful to them. Keep them coming. I am happy to help, and I plan further updates as things change significantly. Please refer to Oil Filter Alternatives - Honda Motorcycles also by Mike Guillory for a comprehensive review of various oil filters.

Web Master's Note
The author is a Chemist, retired from a major Oil and Chemical Company, after a career in the Quality Assurance of Fuels, Lubricants, and Chemical products. He and his wife both ride.

Mike in Houston
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SuperB · Jun 1, 2008

being a newbie myself, when I went looking for oil I went with Yamalube. It was recommended by some friends and by a couple of mechanics. I also figured, hey my bikes a yamaha and this stuff is made by yamaha for their bikes, It may be a little more expensive but hey, my life depends on the bike so I was willing to fork over a little more. Thanks for the thread I enjoyed reading it.

RickCoMatic · Jun 1, 2008

Don't go to the Dealer for your Motor Oil.
Yamaha isn't in the Oil Business.

It's just the same oil you get in a Container without the packaging that allows the Dealer to charge you more for what you'd get if you bought it elsewhere in a bottle NOT having the Yamaha Brand affixed to the package.

MiCarl · Jun 1, 2008

Excellent article. Thanks for posting it.

My Venture gets the WalMart SuperTech 2000 15w40. I'll probably use that in the XJ when the fall weather comes.

FWIW I have two SUVs with over 150K miles. They always get the SuperTech oil. The car also gets SuperTech oil, but it only has 130K :lol: . I've never had an oil related problem.

Old-Grunt · Jun 1, 2008

[quote="RickCoMati

There are a few that offer words of descent no matter what the topic is about.
Every now and then, somebody gets outraged and tries to right the ship.

Based on nearly 30 Years of experience running Castrol 20W/50 in a long list of different Makes and Models ... I never once had a Oil related issue with Castrol 20~50.

I also reserve the right to be beyond skeptical of claims that anyone has after I just finish recommending it to newcomers to the Forum.

I know the score.
I keep score.
There are a few who lie in wait to disagree with and tell me I'm full of it.
Too bad they haven't anything better to do.[/quote]

Ok great XJGOD I am sure this is directed at me,I take this ands your other post calling me a liar in your sneaky roundabout way as a personal attack!!!!I am also sure it is ok since you are a moderater!!!!
Just for the record I have sent 2 emails asking to have my account deleated hopefully it will be soon,but since it hasnt yet I am going to speak my mind..
Ol buddy Rick you need to crawl down off your high horse,if you are as great a mechanic as you say you are you will know sometimes crap happens,no reason no explanation crap just happens..I also challenge you or anyone else to go throgh all my posts and show where I am trying to rock the boat,I have had a differant idea or opinion then ol buddy rick a time or two but I guess I was wrong thinking this was a place to share,not worship the great XJGOD..
No where did I say castroil was a bad oil,I said I had a problem with it once,I actually like thier oil and use it,nowhere did I recomend synthetic oil I made a factual but aparently not so well known fact about it!!!!!!!
So sorry I hurt you your feelings super XJ master Rick!!!!!!

I also PM'd super Rick but it apears rather then talk in PM's he would rather take anouther shot at me in the forum real classy ol buddy you are definatly showing me your true colors!!!!

Robert,Woot you are both class acts so would one of you please deleat my account!!!I dont want anything to do with a forum where the moderater is a instagator then tries to act like the member is out of line!!!!!

spinalator · Jun 2, 2008

Oil Threads never fail to disappoint.

Old Grunt, take some happy juice and a week off from the forum and all will be well. I suggest 18 year old scotch, but after spending a year in Ireland, I have grown fond of some of the Irish stuff as well.

You can leave if you want to, but no need to go away all angry and stuff. Geez,you are forgetting about rule number 1 in Internet Forums: Have a thick skin and don't assume everyone is an asshole, just because they type that way.

sohowcome · Jun 17, 2008

Is the Castrol 20w50 made for motorcycles specifically or for automobiles? Thanks for the info.

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The dreaded oil thread for a new owner

Jim_Vess Member

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Jim_Vess Member

MiCarl Active Member

RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

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RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

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