Starter Clutch

First, I am no mechanic. So far, I have replaced the alternator stator, and renovated the starter motor. I am now cleaning the carbs off my parts bike to replace on the working bike. But, I have a bigger issue: the starter clutch.

Just to clarify, motor works well, but when warm, starting the bike sounds like it is slipping inside and sounds like a rattling grinding. The result is that it doesn't turn over. Upon several attempts with the starter button, it will eventually catch, turn the motor, and start up. It has no problem when starting cold.

I am blaming the clutch. Considering my ability, I am seeking a mechanic. Does anyone have a ballpark cost? Keep in mind, I payed $1300 for the thing. Is it worth fixing? Can I do this myself (with help from friends)? I have another parts bike of same model, so time isn't an issue.

Can I continue to ride before I get this fixed? Am I limited to push starting?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

PS: If fixing is a go, then I have a shopping list... I'll PM 'you-know-who-you-are' with that list later on.

Thanks all for your willingness to advise.

 

Some hopefully good advice:


Starter Motor Clutch Rebuild Parts:

Starter Motor Clutch Rebuild Parts:

sms6) OEM and aftermarket parts to rebuild your STARTER MOTOR CLUTCH DRIVE. Yamaha used a "centrifugal clutch" type of drive system to engage and disengage the starter motor drive from the engine gear, and over time the pins and springs that provide the engagement action can fail....which is terrible, as these are a real pain to replace, and almost always require dis-assembly of the upper and lower engine cases. Sometimes, "stuck" starter motor clutches can be freed up by running a solvent in with the engine oil in an attempt to loosen any engine oil sludge that has accumulated over time, and locked the starter clutch pins. Of course, such solvent should be run in the engine with the bike on the centerstand, and not any under load!!! And then drain and flush this solvent-and-oil mixture, refill with fresh oil-only, run on the centerstand again, and then drain and refill with fresh oil-only again......now you can ride it again. You want to make DARNED SURE that you get all of the solvent-saturated oil out of the crankcase before you put the engine under load, and risk chewing up engine bearings, etc. with solvent-thinned oil!


ALSO, TAKE NOTE OF THIS EXPERIENCE FROM ANOTHER XJ-OWNER:

"If there is not enough grip between the plunger and the roller, it can skip, causing the grinding, clacking noises you hear. I have been told by a Yamaha mechanic with over 20 years experience that it is very possible for some synthetics to greatly increase the chances that this will occur......"

So this weekend I drained the synthetic out, put some cheap 20W50 in, and rode it for a little while. Then I drained the cheap oil out and put Castrol GTX 20W50 in and the starter does not malfunction anymore, not even once! I cant believe it! I guess these bikes were not made to run synthetic---I'm sticking with conventional oil from now on."


If neither of the above tricks work, then it might be time to do the dirty deed. Some people have successfully accomplished the replacement of the pins, springs, and caps with the engine together, but more than likely the engine has to come out of the frame and being dis-assembled to access this area. If you read this thread:

http://www.xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic ... LUTCH.html

you'll get a good idea of what challenges you're up against.

By the way, if you do decide to split the engine open and perform open-heart surgery, you might as well replace the primary chain and guide while you're in there, as those are also "wear items" and will cause problems if and when they start failing!

 

Before I waved the White Flag on this one ...

I'd pull and overhaul the Starter.
Shoot some SeaFoam right on the Starter Clutch.

Then, put the Drain Plug back in it ...
Oil it up ...
and, ... try it!

If the Clutch was just sticking ... you are a lucky guy.
If not ... you need several CD's of The Blues.

 

From someone who has gone where very few have gone before, try everything before considering accessing the starter clutch assembly. Which can be done by going in through the alternator housing requiring the removal of the rotor. But be warned, if you have a pacemaker, a weak heart, lack of mental perseverance or other minor disability, and from what I've seen and heard of the US health system, make sure you're fully insured.

It can be a slow painstaking process of keyhole surgery or if all the cards fall the right way, it can still be difficult but will take a lot less time and trouble that splitting the cases.

My suggestion is to replace the engine oil with cheap thin stuff, work it through the engine, drain, and do it again. Drain once more and then fill up with good ol' GTX 20/50. That should solve most starter clutch problems. After 20 years or so they will probably be showing signs of wear and slippage but unless it has fully given up the ghost, persevere with what you have. UNLESS...you actually have the engine out of the frame anyway then it is a must do job because it'll be a long time before you have the engine out again. And with the engine out you can really do a good inspection of the starter clutch and associated drive trains.

 

redcentre003

As far as I know, you are THE MAN when it comes to doing "The Shortcut"
Please stay on top of this thread and be ready to advise the member and anyone who might be assisting them if it becomes necessary to do the Starter Clutch.

tygor:

Fill in the blanks for us. We got to know all about that bike. How many miles are on it? What shape is it in? What is your level of wrenching ability and do you have the tools?

Before we start any process of taking the engine apart to sneak in there and do the rollers and springs ... I think we should douche the thing with seafoam and make sure the starter is in tip top condition.

Clean the starter and overhaul it making sure it is able to put as much turning torque on the mechanism as its rated for.
I'd clean the Planetary set and make sure the electrical end was good to go.
Clean and grease the Business end.
Clean and inspect the Electrical end.
Douche the Starter Clutch with a flood of SeaFoam or a STRONG Engine degreaser.
Fully charged Battery
All the X's and O's covered.

No load engine flush and lube on lightweight motor oil for a flush.
Oil and filter
The acid test to find out if it was dirty and sticking or is worn-out and needs replacement.

 

Sadly for me, my wrench ability is low-level. I've been a motorcycle owner now for just under a year and before that, I stuck to oil changes on my 4-wheel type vehicles. I will gladly tell you all about my bike and again, I will accept any and all advice. I have done the search and read up on starter clutches, so I do come informed.

First, I previously have opened, cleaned, re-greased, check the brushes, and reassembled the starter motor. It works better than it ever has, so no problem there.

The first oil change or two I used YamaLube as suggested and sold to me by the dealer (who however does not work on anything older than a '96). I will check on the flavor of oil I've used recently.

The bike has 46k miles on it. It started showing this problem this winter, and I decided to blame cold weather. It cleared up in the spring, but has since reared it's ugly head again. One mechanic friend (the 4-wheel type), suggested to cease and desist until I can repair. This is my commuter, so I need to know to stop riding it, cuz I will otherwise.

Now my turn for questions... to show my ability. You mentioned a douche... Do I do this with the oil plug out (so it can be truly drained)? I will go buy the BIG contained of SeaFoam and clean it out. Also buy cheap 20w50... then look for GTW. I planned to seeing a mechanic today and finding out a ballpark. But I can wait till I clean it out and re-fill with oil.

I truly hope that some housekeeping works. It sounds like you guys are avoiding the ballpark cost question.

PS: I don't have the tools to crack the case, and I don't know what they are. However, I work at the home office of an overseas mission and the missionaries have all the right tools and the know-how. I can drag my parts bike over and learn on it. Even fix it's engine and then replace. Thanks to my fender-bender, I have the same model parts bike sitting in the garage (it too had the makings of starter clutch issues).

Thank you all, and keep it coming.

 

The 46,000 Miles make the bike a candidate for a slipping Starter Clutch.

There is no guarantee that douching the Starter Clutch will solve the problem.
Bathing it in solvent only serves to free-up any contaminates that might be causing it not to engage properly.

Normally, you leave out the Oil Drain Plug and spray as much of the solvent you can get on to the Starter Clutch through the case opening when the Starter is removed.
The solvent exits the bike through the Oil Drain Hole.

Going in after the Starter Clutch to do an overhaul of the Rollers and Springs will require some advanced shills and special tools.

Even though the process is a Shortcut to removing the engine and cracking the cases; its still and involved process whereby the Alternator needs to be completely removed and the panel behind the Alternator loosened and removed for access to the Starter Clutch.

I would not recommend it to anyone without fairly advanced experience in dealing with an engine disassembly and being able to work at the Starter Clutch through a confined space.

 

Rick, thanks for the chat. I know that the news may be grim in the long run, but I greatly appreciate your help, even if it is just moral support.

I wanted to add in some info and ask yet another question. The oil that I used on the last change is: Valvoline Motorcycle 4-stroke, 10W-40 (superior wet clutch protection)

I heard the suggestion to use Castrol GTX 20W-50, so I dropped by the auto store and found two types. So, here's the part where I ask for advice. Shall I buy the regular GTX 20W-50 (sludge reducer), or GTX High Mileage 20W-50 (low burn-off)?

I placed around 6 oz. of SeaFoam in the oil tonight and will let it work tomorrow on the way to and from work, then drain the stuff tomorrow night and replace with the GTX.

Thanks everyone for your guidance.

 

Stay away from anything with Moly, or energy conserving badging.

 

I met a very nice, seemingly experience, motorcycle guy at the parts store and he strongly suggested straight 50 oil for a bike as old as mine. I showed him what I had used before and he just said 'too thin'. I had the GTX 20W-50 on the counter and he liked that... but still recommended straight 50. S, that's what I bought. Right as I type, the cheaper 20W-50 is running through, removing any of the solvent infused oil. Then we'll see.

As I have been changing the oil, with the engine warm, I have had no problems starting it, so perhaps the solvent helped. I'll keep the forum informed.

I should mention that this oil he suggested had the API rating of SM. And doing a quick search, I learned that SM is at the top of the rating chart. The suggested SE is marked obsolete and describes all engines prior to 1979. Well, mine is a 1983. Anyway... my point is that the oil he suggested is using the current rating grades where the stuff I was using had SF, SG, and SJ... older marks.

http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/API.html

 

Not sure I'd go with straight 50 unless it was triple digits outside! Too thick if you run in the 70s. You will find hard starting in the morning with too thick an oil. Keep an eye on things and be ready to drain the 50 out (have the 20/50 standing by).

 

There's absolutely no need for 50 weight oil in any motorcycle engine that isn't built from solid cast-iron, running lean, racing uphill through the Sahara desert with a sidecar in fifth gear.

 

Clearly, this is why I have about 22 posts... and you all have around 500 and up. Sadly, the deed is done. I will keep the GTX on standby though, because even though I was careful to fill no higher than half up the sight-glass, it still showed evidence of slight smoking... and not from the little dribble, from the exhaust. So, seeing that, I was tempted to drain it right there and then.

It is clear though, that with this age of a bike, it will constantly require attention. For instance... freaked by the smoking I was checking tons of stuff... including bubbling up into my air box (it's happened). Doing this, I noticed the seat was unhinged, the air filter was slightly ajar and thus not well sealed, the back tire threw a weight, and the front pads need replaced (and so probably the drum shoes too).

Is our task never done!?

 

Patience padiwan, one thing at a time. A labor of love this be, hurry not or great will be your unhappiness.

 

Well, I have been excited for almost 2 days now. It is now even more fun to ride, and exciting to hop on and start her up. The straight 50 is working wonders. Shifting is more smooth, it runs with less noise, and best of all... it starts!!!

Well, it did before too, but now it even starts when the oil is hot. So it most definitely was a thin oil problem. I ran SeaFoam through the oil case, drained it, ran cheap oil for awhile, drained it, and added 50 weight.

Now, for two days it's been riding smooth. I have even tested it by eating lunch out (which previously would result is parking-lot embarrassment as I attempted to start the thing, and it responded by grinding rather than firing).

Ok, another cost averted by proper (though belated) maintenance.

 

Glad to hear of your success, it makes a fella grin when things go right once in a while.

 

That's good news, because I visited the Lead Tech over at Yamaha to see how much it would cost for the job to get done in a shop.

The cost was expensive.
Approaching $700.00 Parts and Labor.

I know you didn't want to hear that.

I also inquired about the Oil situation.
If you are running straight 50 Weight .... you can be subjecting the internal parts to overheating.

"Windage" ... the heating of materials due to resistance through a fluid is likely to occur with the straight 50 Weight.
Don't overheat your engine and have an Alternator or Starter melt-down becauue of the Oils resistance to allow the Crank to move through it and other rotational parts heating-up due to the thickness of the Oil.

Yamaha recommends 20W/40 in its older machines, now.
The new models run 10W/40.

 

Wow, thanks for the warning.

We've been experiencing 100 degree weather this past week while I've been running the heavier oil. I will go ahead and swap it out for 20w50 -> GTX if I remember correctly.

 

Actually, after visiting with Yamaha and discussing the Oil Question ... you can run 20W/40 Yamalube.

20W/40 If you can find it aftermarket.

10W/40 as an alternative to 20W/40 not being available.

Also, Synthetics that are designed for Motorcycles with Wet Clutches.
Mobil-1 has such a Synthetic as do some other marketers.

 

As someone who went the whole nine yards (complete strip down and reassembly) let me say I am quite happy to hear that you have averted this arduous task. I think we can begin to see a pattern developing with the use of certain lubricants and starter clutch problems. This problem is exacerbated by the location of the starter clutch deep inside the engine, (which is one of the reasons why the XJ motor is so narrow). Perhaps an FAQ notice should be written in this regard, i.e., the use of light oils or synthetics and starter clutch slippage. In my case, I used Amsoil 0W40 which was listed as a replacement for the recommended 10W40. The starter clutch parts I took out showed very little wear, if any. I have been using 15W40 for almost all my riding career with no issues, but I switched to the Amsoil for extra protection for the turbo and the problems started. This is in no way meant to be an indictment of Amsoil, since I believe they produce a quality product, but more rexognition of a quirk of the XJ design.

 

And so it follows why the Dealership's don't want anything to do with the labor intensive repairs to our older bikes.

They don't want to take-in work that is going to run-up a labor tab that could exceed the cost of the bike.
Some of us are riding some really nice old XJ-Bikes, restored and painted with options and such that have value ... to us.
Not on the open market.

Since all too many people are walking away from their machines after having repair work done that ran-up quite a tab at the Dealerships ... the Dealerships are now refusing to take-in the work, even if the Owner leaves a deposit for some of the work being done.

It won't be too long before we are on our own and not finding any support or Parts available at the Dealership. unless you Special Order and leave the money for the whole tab.

 

OK, my saga of my apparently sticking Starter clutch lead me to this thread. I'm hoping the clutch is not engaging because the bike has been sitting for about 4 years outside. it only has 11,000 orig miles on it, so it's not likely it is worn.

Well, the Seafoam, oil flush sounds like a valid approach, however this bike is not a runner at this point, so can I get the clutch lathered up with out running the bike?

Maybe I can make a bent tube on the Seafoam can to spray the clutch directly & let it sit.

Heck, I haven't even gotten to my oil change yeat anyway.

 

Roverguy; How about bump start, warm up good and change oil, and see what the reaction from the starter clutch is?
Tygor; I would definitely go back to multi-weight, 20W40 or 20W50.

 

Big:

This bike is quite a way from a runner, still need to drain tank, clean all carbs, etc. It's been sitting idle for 3-4 years outside.

Maybe I'll jus ry & spray the heck out of it & use a fully charger car batt to jump instead of my portable batt pack??