converting lights to LED

Re: converting to LED

I think the bulbs are the same and should work.
Look in the links section for dash light upgrade.

 

Re: converting to LED

A couple of things to think about for LED conversion. Your flasher will probably need to be changed to an electronic version because the LED's will not draw enough to make it flash. Also, LED's are very directional and if not viewed straight on, they are not real visible. I would consider adding additional LED lighting to your existing setup to augment what you have. Then you will have better visibility instead of worse. And the flasher you have now will still work.

 

Re: converting to LED

2fast - thanks! I was just going to mention that! Thermal flashers get tripped by voltage causing them to heat up... the voltage for the stock bulbs heats them up quickly - makes the bimetalic strip bend and breaks the circuit... that quickly cools and the strip touches again causing the light to come back on.

The really low voltage LEDs won't draw enough current to get the strip to heat and turn the lights off...

You will need to replace the flasher unit as 2fast has stated it your bike has a thermal flasher. I'm almost certain it does.

What you might use is an LED cluster... I have seen some posted that might even slide nicely inside the old package.

Cheers,
woot.

 

Re: converting to LED

Tried LED bulbs in my 900 Seca. They were extremely dim, no matter how you looked at them. They were 1157 plug in types, so no mods were necessary. If there are newer types with Ultrabright WHITE LED's in them, they may be a better bet, but I was not impressed with the red ones I bought at all. I chucked them for some regular bulbs.

 

Re: converting to LED

I don't have any personal experience, but someone posted the other day that you must match the bulb color to the lens color, red bulb -red lens, amber bulb-amber lens. He said that they wouldn't work other wise.

 

Converting lights from incandescent to LED

Snosherrif,

If this thread is already in progess, let me know, but I couldn't find anything soley dedicated to the topic...so here it goes.

I am in the process of upgrading the lighting on my XJ. My goal is to make myself more visible and lower the current amp draw so I can install an H4 headlamp upgrade (the round upgrade found at JP Cycle - 7" Halogen Headlight Upgrade

So far I have replaced my panel lights with LED bulbs. Since only two are on all of the time, I've roughly shed 6 watts, or 1/2 an amp.

On the down side, I installed 1157's on all of my turn signals so they are running lights, so I gained 32 watts, or 2 amps.

So at the moment I'm down 1-1/2 amps.

So the converting the license plate light (8w) and the tail/brake light (8w/27w) gains me 16 watts, or 1-1/4 amps. So I'm down by 1/4 amp.

Oh, so I forgot to mention, I need to drop 10w or almost an amp to break even on the upgrade.

So the big savings will come in converting my turn signal/running lights (32w or 2 amps) to LED.

Now, LED clusters are a dime a dozen. I'm leaning towards Custom Dynamics 1.85" 1157's.

I know there are issues with the flasher and the auto-cancelling unit, and that is where this forum will come in handy. Electronic flashers solve the flasher problem, but the auto-cancelling is more difficult.

I also know that if you place the load resistors across each cluster, you can keep all of your original flasher/auto-cancelling, but you are back to drawing current, albeit if done correctly, less than what you started with, but not capturing the true efficiency of the LED's.

There are electronic boxes out there that do all of this, but it appears that the Yamaha turn signal switch isn't set up for it.

So what has the folks on this list doing to overcome these obstacles - money being no object.

 

Thanks Snosherrif!

Anyhow...the dashlights I ordered are from SuperBrightLED's

Make sure you specify the 12v type. I think they are BA9's. They should arrive in a nother day or two, so I'll give a report then.

I'm looking at Custom Dynamics Custom Dynamics for my rear tail/brake light upgrade. They make an 1157 that is 1.85" in diameter and has 48 LED's. It's not cheap, but I've seen one in action and it is brighter than the 1157 incandescent. You remove the reflector and either mount it in the socket, or make a small mount to move it closer to the lens. Don't know which one will work best until I get it.

I'm still concerned about converting the turn signals. I know I have to go to an electronic flasher, but how does it effect the auto-cancelling part of the circuit?

And...I just came across the HID headlight upgrades. They are only 35w and put out three more times light than an H4 bulb. They are more efficient and not cheap! $200. Has anyone found and installed a conversion kit that will fit a 1981 XJ650H?

Thanks!

Michael

 

The cluster I am going with for my turn signal lights are the Custom Dynamics three way. It fits into the turn signal lens and provides a full intensity amber turn signal, half intensity red running light, and full intensity red brake light. I also have a Back-Off LED license plate wired to the brake light. I have also added two amber LED clusters under the front fork reflectors for better side visibility, and will likely add two more to the grab rails on the rear. I too like to be seen.

An LED cluster is less likely to burn out than a standard incandescent light bulb. In fact, with the addition of your brake flasher, you have increased the chances that yours will burn out. The LED clusters have a better chance of outliving the bike, and even myself. With efficiency comes longevity. They also come on immediately where incandescent bulbs take longer to reach full output. Granted, it's in 10th's of a second, but every 10th counts when you're hoping the guy behind you will always see you and stop.

I read somewhere recently that due to the distraction, some motorists are complaining about the newest custom brake flashers on motorcycles, and since the electronics industry can't leave well enough alone, they are coming out with ones that are programable for the cafe racers that are extremely annoying. I'm OK with the type that give three flashes and then go steady - similar to what you have in the video, but the flashers that keep on flashing to some unknown beat while you're stuck two minutes at a traffic light could be construed as annoying. Especially when it is a group of cafe racers - it looks like you're coming up on an accident scene - very effective, but annoying. The last thing I want to annoy is a two-ton cager.

YMMV

 

I posted this in the Voltage Output thread, but it is relavent here, so i'll cut n paste...


Another way to lighten the load on the electrical system is to install LEDs in your turn signal, brake, and panel lights. The stock 1156 bulbs (turn signals) use 23 watts apiece, the 1157 bulbs (brake/tail) use 9 watts for the tail plus 23 watts for the brake, and the 194 bulbs in the panel use 7 watts apiece (1 per gauge, plus one for each indicator). So if you have your brakes on, turn signal on, and lets say you have the high beam on in neutral, that's 145 watts being drawn. (23W x 2 for the turn signals, 23W x 2 for the brake lights, 9W x 2 for the tail lights, 7W x 2 for the gauge lights, and 7W x 3 for the indicators [high beam, turn, and neutral]). That's a LOT of juice for a little generator..

The LED replacements for these bulbs all use less than 1 watt apiece. So in the same scenario, with LED's you would be using less than 11 watts. Using less power there not only means there's more power for your headlight, (you won't see it dim out when the turn signal is on or you hit the brakes) and the ignition, but it also takes a tremendous load off the alternator. It will last longer, AND, it doesn't take as much engine power to spin a lightly loaded alternator as it does a fully loaded one.

These are the LEDs I used for turns/tails..


They are available in red and amber, 1156 and 1157 sockets. I got them off ebay for $15 each. (search 1156 LED)


And these are the gauge cluster/indicator lights...


They come in all colors, plus white, and go for abut $5 each (depending on the color. Make sure you get the 4 or 6 LED versions to make it bright as possible. For the gauge lights, I used white, but keep in mind there's a yellow color gel molded into the gauge face. So other colors like red or blue might not show through. Because white LED light has a lot of UV, I painted my gauge needles with fluorescent orange paint, which makes them light up and its much easier to see.


If you are replacing the turn signals, you will have to buy an electronic flasher, because the LEDs will not put enough load on your stock flasher to make it flash. Downside to this is you will lose the auto-cancelling system (unless someone knows what part the flasher plays iin that system and can share what to do to bypass it). But otherwise it is just a standard 2-prong plug in plus a ground wire. If you have the XJ750 with the computer, replacing the tail lights will trigger the TAIL warning. This is a simple fix (but it involves removing the gauge cluster), you just solder a jumper between 2 contacts on the PC board (same fix to kill the HEAD warning if you install headlight relays).

**EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot two very important things.. First, you CAN NOT put a white LED behind a color filter. It is NOT true white light, and it will not shine through at all! With LEDs, you MUST put the correct color behind the lens (red behind red, amber behind amber, etc.). And second, it seems like a lot of money to spend on bulbs, but remember one thing - LEDs never burn out. They're not vulnerable to heat, vibration, oil on your fingers, or moisture. So these are the last bulbs you will ever have to buy.

-----------

The 1156/1157 LED modules that I mentioned are VERY effective in the light housings in our bikes. They fire 360 degrees, plus out the top end, so the light completely fills the lens in all directions. It also fires into the housing reflector, throwing even more light out of the lens. In the brake housing, I lined the 'non reflective' part with mylar to give it just that much more. My tail/brake light and turn signals are very brightly visible from hundreds of feet away, even in direct sunlight.

-Matt

 

WARNING! SCIENCE CONTENT! (Sorry, I love Mythbusters! )

You are absolutely right about the 'turn-on' time of incandescent bulbs. I can't find the link right now, but there were actually several studies done, and the difference in driver reaction times to LED versus incandescent bulbs is astounding. (in fact, I don't understand why LEDs aren't standard equipment on all new cars!) LEDs caused drivers to react a whole 1/4 of a second or more faster than incandescants. But this is not JUST because of the fact that LEDs go to full intensity immediately...

What they found is that the 'instant-on' intenstity of LEDs triggers the "STOP!" reaction through a completely different set of nerves than an incandescent bulb does. These are high-speed nerves that are normally only used when the 'Fight or Flight' reaction is triggered by a threat of harm.

Now, while 1/4 of a second doesn't seem like anything, at 60MPH (88 feet per second), 1/4 of a second translates into 22 FEET LESS that it would take the driver behind you to come to a complete stop. When you're on a bike, this could mean the difference between life and death. These reaction times are bettered even further by using a pulser in conjunction with LEDs -- up to 3/8 of a second better than incandescents. But I agree, 3 pulse flashers are very effective (most of the new ambulances/firetrucks around here have them) -- continuous flashers are friggin annoying.

Just some more food for thought!

-Matt

 

TaZMaNiaK and I have kind of eluded to something, but maybe haven't made it clear enough: if you use load resistors to make your OEM flasher and auto-cancelling system work, you've not gained anything in terms of lowering the drain on your alternator.

The load resistors duplicate the same resistance effect the lightbulb filament creates, therefore, you draw the same current. There are different amp versions - 2, 3, & 4 that you could play with to see how low you can go before the flasher won't work - and thereby reducing some of the current draw, but it will be so close to the original that you won't really be gaining much.

The key to lowering the power drain so you can go to a brighter headlamp (my goal) is to use an electronic flasher, preferably one for LED's (they usually will work down to .03 amps). And as TaZMaNiaK and I pointed out, the auto-cancelling relay will no longer work. I am trying to understand why and see if I cannot come up with a non-draw solution. There are solutions out there by Back-Off which replaces the flasher and the auto-cancelling relay for $100 - kinda steep after replacing your bulbs with LED's.

 

OK...my LED's from SuperBrightLEDs came in. Even though it's below freezing outside, I already had the instrument cluster apart, so I switched out the bulbs, crossed my fingers and fired her up (OK, so I had to put the charger on her and give her a shot of ether, but I know what it takes to get her started when she's cold ). I am impressed. I know alot about LED's, and I thought the 4 LED cluster that SuperBrightLEDs sells would match what was there before, and maybe a little bit more, and boy did they deliver!

By replacing 6 bulbs on my 1981 XJ650 I've saved an average of 12 watts while driving (if the brights are on) that's roughly 1 amp! That's 12 watts I can now add to my headlamp (on upgrade of course).

I think my order for the instrument cluster LED's (including shipping) was less than $20. I bought the 4xLED BA9 bulbs.

Next is the tail/brake light and license plate light (a 16-43 watt savings).

Below is a picture taken with a Canon S400 Digital Elph with no flash in the dark.

 

So I'm assuming you ordered the BA9s-B4 / G4 / A4 / R4 for those centre light? I'm thinking about getting the single bulb versions to see how they do - the BA9s-B / G / A / R ones. Reason for choosing the 4 diode version?

Oh - and for the gauges - did you use the BA9s-G4's?
I'm thinking about using the BA9s-W-WV inverted lens white bulbs for the gauge illumination and see if the wide angle and side dispersion helps light up the face better.

 

Yes, you are correct about the indicator lights. What I had was dim in bright sunlight, so I went for the 4LED based on the luminosity. The single LED with the diffused lens might be better as I can see the individual LED's through the panel lens. These LED's are a bit longer than the original lamps that were in there. That brings them closer to the panel lens. The gauge light LED's were the white ones. I think you may be onto something with the inverted lens. I will be trying other LED's as I think I have the same brightness as I had before. Please post your findings for the benefit of all.

Later,

Michael

 

I think I'll go ahead and order the ones I'm thinking of then and see how they compare - it's only $10 so worth the test :->

TaZMaNiaK - have you got comparison pics of those funky "tower" style bulbs in your signals and brake? Would really, really love to see those

 

Give me some time, and when we have a sunny day here I'll take a video.

 

I ordered the 30 LED 90deg amber and a 30 LED 90deg red 1157 bulb from SuperbrightLED's. I want to test the rear running light/turn signals since I had painted the lens with Testors transluscent red spraypaint. I'm concerned (as brought to my attention by jdrich48) just how much the original lens color on this mod effects the color of the final output with the LED's. I can use the amber up front then since I converted them to 1157's also. Just wanted both colors for the test. With the regular incandescent bulbe the lens are definitely red, but because LED's use pure wavelengths, the amber lens beneath the red spraypaint may interfere.

 

Otter, the dual-color lens will definitely affect the light output of the LEDs. The amber lens will filter the red light before it even gets to the red overlay. Your light output will be very very low. Even if you were to use an amber LED module, the red overlay would then filter the amber light, producing the same effect. If you are adament about using red leds on the rear turns, your best bet would be to try and find a red (or clear -- just make sure it is DOT approved or else it is a ticketable mod) lens for the stock housing, or if you can't find a replacement lens replace the entire housing with one that has a red or clear lens.

Now, regarding the LED modules you bought, I tried those but wound up returning them because the viewing angle was too narrow (35 degrees from center in all directions) and they didnt fill up the entire lens. The 'tower' style modules that I suggested are the best ones on the market because they fire 360 degrees plus out the end. This intensifies the light output because it is taking advantage of the reflector as well as firing directly through the lens. (and no, I dont sell them or have stock in the company, I'm just sharing my experience because between my bike and my truck, I've tried just about every type of LED module out there, and these are the best hands-down)

-Matt

 

Oh yeah - pics are DEFINATELY needed now.....

 

hmm my right flasher wasnr isnt flashing

could it be because i put in 4w bulbs instead of 23w?

i just had 4w handy and i cant find 24w anywhere!!

 

Yup - you got it. Our bikes have a thermal flasher that requires the resistance of the full wattage bulbs to function. 4w bulbs drop the draw low enough that the flasher thinks a bulb is blown.

Replace with an electronic flasher, or a resistor block, or stock bulbs.

 

Nice job - where I'm going for some heated gear I'll probably have to look into doing that myself... that and/or rewinding the alt.

 

Woot if you have the xjcd theres an alt. upgrade in there.
from 19 amp's to 23 amp's
Parts at bike bandit 177.00 USD

 

Awesome mod. I'll do mine next!

 

>sheepish< I still haven't ordered the CD... and I've known about it for years

 

Well, I recieved my LED lights for testing the rear turn signal/running light amber lens that-I-painted-red color of the bike. My concern was that the amber lens, now painted red, would filter out both an amber or a red LED light. I have found that that is not the case. With the amber lens painted red, it acts as a red lens with the red LED lamp, and an amber lens with the amber LED lamp. I had 3 folks judging the intensity and color both with and without the lens. They felt that the colors were shining through true, and that although there was a detectible diminishment in intensity with the lens on, it was not that noticeable.

The 90 deg bases don't allow for use of the reflector, and as TaZMaNiaK mentioned, the LED angle is to narrow for use in the turn signal housings. I primarily wanted them to test as they were inexpensive. I also tested SuperBrightLEDs #67 LED bulb for the license plate light, and I don't like that one either. I will keep looking.

Later

 

i have 12v4w bulbs in my right side

can this be why it dont blink?

i cant find 24w bulbs anywhere only 4 or 8w!

 

Yes, the OEM flasher requires 27 watt 1156 bulbs all around.

 

So I've received and installed my 1.85" :ED clusters from CustomDynamics. They are the brightest I've found to date, but pricey ($40 each). But the LED flasher I purchased from SignalDynamics isn't working at all. Fortunately the original OEM will work enough that I can test the brightness, but it won't flash, so it's off to the auto parts store tomorrow to see if they have a 3-prong elecronic flasher. The 48 LED tailight bulb is nice. I'm very happy with this mod and the headlight no longer dims at idle. It does make a difference. I'll take pics when it's dark and not raining.

 

Has anyone had any experience with certain brands of LED electronic flashers not working? I've converted everything over and the electronic LED flasher module I purchased will not work.

Thanks

Michael

 

I was kinda waiting to see how your project came out before I converted mine. But I had a parts rep. come by the other day and had him order me a flasher designed just for led's.
Well he sent me a solid state electronic flasher($35.00) that would have to be installed on the bike somewhere, it has its own mounting holes. and has to be hard wired, it has no prongs just 3 wires. Comes with connectors and heat shrink.
Can be used with 2 or 3 prong applications.
I just put it up in the shed this morning, I'll get it tomorow and send a pic, name and part#.
Don't know if it works until I get some bulbs.
I haven't heard of anyone using one of these before.
It would be nice to stumble onto something that would allow the auto cancel to work.
Can someone explain the difference between solid state and an electronic flasher?

 

I've never had so much annoying "fun" in my life trying to understand the little black box beneath my tank, otherwise known as the "cancelling unit".

This is what I know:

1. One function is to measure the AC Generator output and close the contact to the headlight - thus turning it on - when there is enough current being generated.

2. it disegages the flasher relay when the reed switch in the speedometer housing changes state.

3. it disengages the flasher relay when you push the cancel switch.

So when upgrading to LED lights all around, and wanting to keep the cancelling unit, you would need to place one lead of a load resistor on each LED power wire, then run the other lead to ground. These load resistors are 6 ohm 60W heat-sinked, heavy-duty resistors. NOTE: You will need four, one at each turn signal lamp.

OR...do you? I'm wondering if you could attach a single load resistor, or maybe two in series from the black & white wire on the flasher relay. Since the load needs to be somewhere in the flasher circuit, this seems the more logical place, and would put the same load in the circuit regarless of which turn signal was on.

Does this sound correct?

Thanks.

Michael

 

I've come across a site that has a solid-state turn signal flasher with a built-in programmable time-out and other features, but the cost is listed at $110.00. They also have headlight, brakelight modulators, and mirror mounted LED signals.
Sno if we register our club with them we will get a discount of some kind.

 

What's the site?

 

sorry guys... must of had a brain failure... coulda sworn I put the link in....
here it is

http://www.kisantech.com/

 

"Can someone explain the difference between solid state and an electronic flasher?" Sure. The solid state utilizes a bi-metal arm that has two dissimilar metals, each with a different expansion co-efficient. As this little arm heats up as current is passing through it, it warps and the contact is broken. As the arm cools, it straightens out and closes the current path once again, beginning the cycle all over again. The electronic flasher relies upon an crystal oscillator to vibrate at so many cycles per second. The Integrated Chip inside counts the number of cycles and at a predetermined number of cycles switches the current off of those contacts and starts counting again to a predetermined cycle count to turn it back on. How's that for simple. You could learn more about the solid state flasher at howthingswork.virginia.edu, you just have to ask the question. Another source for this knowledge is Way Things Work by David MacAulay. The sources are many (heck, my daughter's encyclopedia shows how the solid state one works). There you go. $110 seems a little steep to me Nick, I expect you should be able to modify the $35 one that Rich picked up with reasonable results. Let us know how it all works out. I'd love to play with this one too but I'm not modifying any time soon.

 

Did you just swap this out with the OEM flasher? Did your cancelling unit still work?

 

I was successful in getting the LED flasher from www.superbrightleds.com to work. I tried several other recommended flashers from Tridon (EP-34, EP-35) which were unsuccessful. The cancellation works only from the thumb switch, but when the weather turns a bit warmer, I'll be running tests on what the cancelling unit does during movement. I think that the cancelling unit can be incorporated into the LED circuit with an additional micro relay.

 

Keep us informed, I'd really like to do this mod myself one day.

 

If anyone has any specifics I might be able to get us some help.

On my car audio board theres one guy with a real passion for putting LED's in his vehicle.

Also there are two Electrical Engineers and like 2-3 people in school for it

So any specific electronic geek type talk

 

Ryan; I think the main trouble is that when the leds and electronic flasher are installed it doesn't allow the turn signal auto cancel to function.
Do you have a pic of the wiring diagram?
If not PM me and I can send it to you off list.
I'm not sure if a wiring diagram is enough to work with or not. I can't find anything on the system operation.

 

What you have to understand is that the OEM flasher is not just a flasher, it also contains part of the speed based turn-signal cancelling function, as does the cancelling unit. I'm sure there is also a timeout circuit in there also as my turn signals have never stayed on for very long, even at a stop light (maybe 2 minutes at the most). I have an electronics background, enough to understand and overcome most automobile related circuits. It's just that some things need to be tested in the field, and others at rest.

I'll get back to you guys in a week or two...or as discoveries are made.

Richard, when you are talking about wiring diagrams, are you talking about the ones from Haynes? I'll take any wiring diagrams you have for the 81 XJ650H.

 

So I've been ordering other turn-signal related parts in order to get this circuit to work with the Custom Dynamics 1.85" 1156/1157/Hardwire LED clusters. I ordered a dual load equalizer from Signal Dynamics, but it doesn't work. Still no blinky-blinky. At the moment I'm communicating with both vendors tech support to figure this out. The problem is that the Yamaha circuit is so intricate that it does not lend itself easily to conversion. Don't rush out there thinking you can convert this circuit easily to LED's. Stick with the taillight and license plate lamp - those convert over no problem. And I question the success of anyone who says they have done this without properly documenting in detail how they successfully managed the conversion. No one has come forward yet with this info.

 

Thanks for the posting. Please keep it coming. I have noticed that my brother's XJ650 headlight is VERY weak. So, we should probably upgrade, so we will be following!

 

Question (semi-off topic): If one were to put in a headlight modulator, would that affect the performance of your bikes electrical system? I guess it would if it decreased current when the headlight was dim. But I don't know how they work, maybe they draw the same current all the time? And do they draw the same current as the original setup?

 

I would think it would draw less (the headlight is on less time) or the same.

 

Well, a few weeks ago I finally resolved the whole LED conversion issue. I ended up having to go with a Custom Dynamics pair of load resistors so the OEM blinker would work and the cancellation unit works as well. I love the look of the LED's, and I'm running at less of a current draw, but when the blinkers come on, there is an ever-so-slight dimming of the headlight, but not as bad as when the turn signals were incandescent.