so whats up with 2nd gear

2nd gear is gone on my bike. no grinding, no noise, just no gear. not a new problem. its just that now that i actually got this sucka running halfway decent, that has now created a need to use the transmission.

everyone says that i should have SOMETHING in 2nd. at least a noise or something. but i dont. so in this case, where should i start looking? and if 2nd is out and the rest of the gears are fine, can one just replace one gear or does it make more sense to rebuild the whole tranny, also do i have to remove the engine from the frame for this kind of surgery?

 

Oh, man!
That ain't good news at all. Probably bad news.
IF you wind-up needing to do Tranny work; the Mill has to get pulled-out.
Then, you have to "Split the Cases" because the Tranny gets lifted-out from within.

When did this Second Gear problem start?

What ... if anything ... have you tried so far?

 

well it just started as the bike was barely running when i got it. so first it was all about getting the carbs situated. now that that is basically settled. its on to the tranny

as far as what ive tried??

shifting past 2nd is about all ive tried. :wink:

when you say split the cases, that fiendishly sounds like im going move a lot of metal or something.

 

When i bought my XJ last weekend, I bought it knowing it had an issue shifting into 2nd. 1st and Neutral still worked as advertised though.

Fast forward to this evening, and I have inverted the bike and taken off the oil-pan.

There is a lot of debris in the oil-pan. Mostly black plastic (is that the starter clutch thing?) but there is also this stuff that looks like case aluminum too. About an hour long visual inspection revealed nothing obviously snapped off, all while slowly turning the back wheel by and and shifting by hand.

Now, the bike is stuck between 5th and 6th (or 4th and 5th)...whatever the top two gears are.

Should I just go for a split? or will removing all the FOD out of the motor clean it up enough to be serviceable?

Thanks everyone!

Ben

 

turtlejoint,

By splitting the cases, he means a total disassembly.

Ed

 

Hi Turtle' is there any sign of the bike being dropped on the gearchange side?

 

Ben, you are finding the debrise of the starter chain tensioner. About $20 and a split case to replace it. From the sounds of it, you have found more than enough reasons to pull the mill. Remember, you don't have to pull the head to split the case so you should only need to throw new shaft seals on everything along with two o-rings to close the case back up. Much cheaper than a head set.

 

You have to get all the FOD out. That FOD is chunks of the Engine's Primary Chain Guide.
The Chain Guide deteriorates and comes apart. The piece that fell-off gets chopped-up and spread throughout the lower-end.

As chunks find their way into or in between the Shift Drum or Gearing; it renders the Transmission "Un-shiftable" ... sometimes locking the Shifting Forks from moving the Gears at all.

You are going to have to get all that stuff out of there. Even probing into pools of Oil that may have collected in around inside the Case as you look-in.

Depending on how much of the Chain Guide you collect; you'll have to make a determination about replacing the Primary Chain Guide too.

 

Cool good info guys.

Hey turtle, I was thinking, when i first ran mine around when i got it, it had a similar situation...i'd try to shift to 2nd, but there was nothing there...once i got a tiny bit of grinding, but it never engaged.

Now that i have looked at the gears going through their motions with the oil-pan off, you can see how the chunks of shit in there are preventing the side-to side motions of the gears...maybe you have the exact same problem?

 

possibly, were you able to get past 2nd into 3rd or higher? i basically just have to shift "past" 2nd and into low 3rd. from there i can hit 4th and 5th no problem. i can also go back down again "past" second all the way through. thats whats kind of weird. i get all the way through with no grinding or noise. its just not there.

as far as any evidence of it being dropped on that side, its hard to tell where it was dropped when. its a salvage title on 650 frame with a 750 engine. to boot, it shifts backwards due to the way that the motor sits on the frame. im ok with that, actually i think i might be able to swap out the foot peg mounts to allow for the use of the 750 shifter on the 650 frame.

thanks for all the great info so far.

so this brings up the question, if i am going to have to split the cases, does that entail removing the engine in the frame? and if so, what are some things to do while "im down there"?

 

Yeah, once i started rowing through the gears by hand i was able to get into the higher gears.


Alright, so I guess I'm going to pull the motor and split the cases. It looks like disconnect the wiring, intake boots from the carbs, and the motor mounts to pull it...Or do I need to do something with the shaft drive too before i can get the motor out of the frame?

Edit: (5 minutes later) - I used the search function in the forums and found the answers. lol imagine that.

 

don't forget to remove the clutch cable bracket.

 

cool, let me know how you get on with your progress. im going to be counting on you to let make all my mistakes for me. take some pics of the really tricky parts, yeah awesome...

8O

i dont envy us...

also, since 2nd gear on my bike is broken, i think it should be broken on my avatar too. :!:

 

"also, since 2nd gear on my bike is broken, i think it should be broken on my avatar too."

lol...oh irony.

Yeah I'll let you know how it goes. I plan to start tomorrow. I have to put the bike back on the tires (it's inverted now), and I'll take plenty of pics.

Does anyone know offhand which gaskets/seals/etc I'll need for reassembly? I might as well order them now.

 

Alaska, if you do it right, you won't need any gaskets save the clutch cover. Everything else on the bottom end is either sealant, o-rings (there are two of them between the case halves, look for them), and seals. Contact Chacal for the lot, he'll get you set up properly. Don't neglect the starter chain guide and the alternator shaft seal.

 

didn't I read a link off site once about replacing 2nd gear with the engine in situ?

 

http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=5090

 

redfire,
as far as I know, that only works on the 1100's...the gear assy's on them slide out the side...not so much on ours

 

aint that a b!tc#

 

yeah no kidding, so an update on my engine removal:

I started with the 4 bolts in the U-Joint for the driveshaft. The absolute best way i found to take them out was by straddling the bike and standing on the rear brake pedal, at least to break them free, then you can hold the wheel by hand and wrench them out.

Then I took off the bottom motor-mount / peg mount. 18mm if i remember right. The top front motor mounts came off next...I took the part that goes through the front of the block off first (14mm), then the brackets that hold that to the frame (12mm)...I took them off and re-attached them facing forwards to get them out of the way, but to take up less real estate in my parts bin. Then the lowest mounts came off with some doing (14mm).

Other things I disconnected were the:
Choke cable
spark plug wires from the head
throttle cable
tachometer cable

Things I still need to disco:
electrical cables to the starter
more? (i'm sure i'll find them as i get to them).

 

thanks for the update! Im really curious to find out exactly whats in there once you crack it open!

 

It usually boils down to a few things:

Chunks.
From the Primary Chain Guide.

Dogs.
Worn down from missed shifts or shifting without the clutch or just from old age catching-up with the mechanical parts. In some cases missing from the PO's abuse or drag racing.

Shift Forks:
Bent or the fork side worn down. From angered frustration hammering on the Shift Lever trying to get the transmission to respond to the Gear Shift Lever rotating the Drum.
Inside surfaces worn-down badly from holding the Fork against the Gear to help prevent the Gear from slipping out of gear while in motion.

 

so it comes down to making an assessment of what needs to be replaced and tracking down those components, and rebuilding the whole damn thing...

and maybe, just maybe, you can put it back together the right way the first time.

i almost like not having 2nd better. yah, like thats safe..

 

Mine was a busted Primary Chain Guide. Great idea, making it black in a small, dark hole. Found it after digging around for an hour. Then had to break it in half while it was in the transmission just to fit it out of the trans. Haven't tackled actually replacing it just yet..

But on mine, I wasn't able to shift into 2nd and beyond.

 

so i think im beginning to understand how the chain guide factors into how the 2nd gear problem im having is happening...

if the chain guide is damaged, it can prevent a gear or gears from meshing correctly right?

 

Interesting reading. I haven't opened up an XJ in 25 years when I worked for a dealer. I think only the 1100s have primary chains (linking crankshaft to the clutch/transmission). The XJs have similar chains but they only spin the starter/aternator shaft. Parts inquiries looking for a primary chain guide for an Xj might be confusing to the yamaha parts guy.
Sorry, I'm not trying to be picky.
We used to see broken shift shaft return springs often long ago that would cause transmission problems and were easy fixes.
Good luck to you guys and thanks for the reading.
1100s 2nd gear would fail easily if the guy was trying to chearp the tire, which many did! Don't BANG second gear on these bikes.

 

I don't know why they call it a Primary Chain Guide either.

It's more like the Starter Clutch Chain Guide.

From what I've gathered, reading the Posts of those who have had them deteriorate and cause the nightmare; they seem to break down on the bikes which have had a good long period of sitting.

They must like being kept in a bath of oil and not allowed to have all the oil drip off them and let them dry-out.

 

I got my bike a year ago with only 5K miles on it. I guess i'm in trouble.
I love the fact these bikes don't have primary chains.

 

Update...

I got 95% of the studs holding the two halves together out tonight. there definitely are a few hard to find/hidden ones. i'll post pictures and hopefully the conclusion of splitting them tomorrow night. my work stoppage tonight was a broken 3/8" drive to 1/4" drive socket thingie while taking the torx screw out of the final drive hole.... >:O

 

keep up the good work. ive decided to ride sans 2nd gear until the winter sets in and weather gets to hairy to ride in. then Ill tackle this thing head on.

 

Hey, that works....If i could have just skipped 2nd, and ridden quasi-reliably, i would've just done the little things and gotten a few miles on the thing before the long dark winter up here...

 

OK, so I have gotten the cases apart. Everything looks really good.

Is there anything obvious i should be looking for?

Also, is there a diagram about how the gears should mesh together, and how to successfully remarry the cases?

 

The written portion of case reassembly in the Haynes is adequate, just take your time. If it won't seat, don't force it. Pull it apart and examine for the cause of binding. Might take a bit but its better than bending something in haste and regreting it later.
Make sure you replace your starter chain tensioner and rebuild the starter clutch (new springs and or rollers) while you are in there.
Good luck!

 

I've been rebuilding my engine as I had the same problem, I just finished reassembling the cases, the haynes manual was very helpful. I wish I had known that you don't need to tear down the top end...

Anyway, look for excessive wear on any of the parts such as gear dogs, shifter forks, shift drum, or any debris that may be preventing the gears from engaging properly.

I think what happened to my bike was the PO used too much RTV when rebuilding the engine, the excess RTV clogged the oil pump and starved the engine, things over heated. My #1 shifter fork was very badly worn and looked burned (ie. all black), a bearing surface on the 2nd gear pinion had failed, and some of the gear dogs (and mating surfaces) were slightly worn. I found a replacement gear set and forks on eBay, as I'm still rebuilding the top end I haven't been able to test it yet.

Here are a couple photos:

 

hey thanks for the photos, thesee will come in real handy when im elbow deep in mine this winter.