A new project, the abandoned xj650RJ

Hi,

A very good friend is moving out of town and decided to give me is old XJ project bike that he never had time to work on and didn't want to haul across the country.

This is an 85 XJ650 (I believe), he said that currently the bike is missing second gear. He also dropped off a second engine with all gears so I am guessing it would be easier to replace everything at once.

I have never worked on a bike before but have done plenty around the house and work on my cars (recently replaced struts on one of them).

I will be asking lots of questions on this forum and post progress on the bike. I will snap a few pictures and post them later on today.

 

Re: A new project...

Here is the new project

 

Re: A new project...

Transmission and engine are one unit. Unless there's something wrong with the spare engine, they go together.

I assume you mean second gear is shot, not actually missing...

Swapping engines isn't that hard. Cracking the case to swap transmissions would be a very advanced job...

Bike looks unloved. You've got a journey ahead of you. Welcome to the club.

 

Re: A new project...

looks like a long road, but theres light at the end of the tunnel.

good luck and welcome!

 

Re: A new project...

Where are you located? From the pic, that's a "Seca." So if it's a North American bike, it's an '82.

If you're elsewhere in the world, it could be a later example.

You've got a LOT of work to do; forget that "shop" thing, just way too expensive even if you found somebody who actually knows their way around XJs. You can do this, but it won't be quick, easy or cheap.

Before you do anything, get compression tests on both motors. That way you'll have some idea what you're facing.

 

Re: A new project...

ecologito,

Welcome and what they^ said. If you do a top to bottom, front to rear resto this would probably make the "TOP 10 WORST CONDITIONED TO RECOMMISSIONED CATAGORY". Very possible, but A LOT of work ahead of you. You will have to be organized. Providing you have a good plat to work from (good compression numbers on one of the engines) I'd purchase a manual(s) and a multimeter. Start stripping, labeling and familiarizing yourself with the bike and begin the rebuild with the chapter on the "starting system". I'd clean, test and re-connect EVERYTHING associated with the starting system to see if the bike shows signs of "life". If it starts, I'd dis-able the bike by removing the front, rear, or both tires to prevent myself from taking it for a "little spin" and possibly having the brakes fail or "lock-up" until you have completed the "front forks", "final gear", "brakes" and "tires" chapters rebuild and to allow time for you to complete the other "necessary" maintenance before the bike is "road" ready. Whether it starts or not get the shims in spec and complete the "fuel system" and "tune-up" chapters. When you have completed a "running sync" including no leaks at the valve cover and "exhaust system" your bike should start and "purr" like a kitten. I would then move to the forks and final gear/adjust the shocks. Rebuild the MC and front caliper including brake lines and lever. Replace the front pads and rear drums. Adjust the front lever and rear brake pedal. Inspect WHEELS for damage and condition of wheel bearings before you buy new tires. Inspect, repair and or replace ALL components of the "clutch" assembly. I'd then do the remaining "electricals" to ensure all other electronics are properly functioning correctly (i.e. headlight, turn signals, rear brake light). And here's where I'm at with mine. It's also my first bike. I didn't ride it for six months learning and doing all of this. I took my wheels/tires to a local shop. They also blasted my fork caps and front brake caliper cylinder. I did all the other work with the aid of this forum and the manual. So, yes, it's possible...but like other members have stated, "It's going to take time". If you do decide to rebuild it you should keep this thread going...I'd like to follow your progress. Good Luck and hope this helps.

Gary

 

Re: A new project...

Thanks for the advise and words of encouragement. I am in Charlotte, NC so it is a US model. The guy who gave it to me said that the spare power train works and he saw it running about two years ago, after that he took over this project and sat in his shed until 2 days ago.

I will be doing a lot of reading and getting myself familiar with this bike. I have already found plenty of spare parts online relatively inexpensive. We'll see where this project takes me.

I will keep y'all posted and I am sure I will be asking lots of questions as the restoration project moves along.

 

Re: A new project...

Cool. If it's an American-market bike, then like I said, it's a 1982 XJ650RJ Seca.

We only got the 650 Seca for the one model year. 'Twarn't any '85s.

And I thought mine was in rough shape.

 

Re: A new project...

Here are a few more shots of this project. The first thing I will do is at least give it a good wash, clean everything, get a new battery and go from there. I will follow the above recommendations about what systems restore first.

Since this is going to be a long process I will have to keep things on task and the right order otherwise I can see this being a bit overwhelming.

First things first so I will have to make a trip to the DMV and call my insurance agent, don't wanna pay stupid fines for a toy that is not running yet.

 

Re: A new project...

After watching some videos on youtube and going through a manual, I decided to do a bit of cleaning. It is obvious now that a lot of modifications have been done to the bike. Some of them more pleasant than other but none the less modifications and since it looks like most of them need some love I will start looking for parts and pieces.

 

Re: A new project...

So step one is to read a lot whoch i am in the process off doing. Youtube is also handy to visually see how to do when an image is worth a thousand words and a video... Well might as well stop reading

I have been looking for a video of somebody replacing an engine but so far no luck. If you know of one please let me know. This weekend I will start testing by getting a new battery and take things apart. Remove seat, gas tank and exhaust headers.

If you have any tricks of the trade feel free to share, if somebody wants to stop by and help I can pay with beer

 

Re: A new project...

First thing you need to do is test the compression on both engines. You'll need a battery, but any jump starter will do. You can even spin the motor off a car battery (CAR OFF!)

You can do it with the engine off the frame, you just need 12V across the terminals of the starter. If you turn over the bike with a new battery in the frame, off the electrical system (and it all works) you'll need to keep the coils from firing by either disconnecting them or the TCI.

Compression is the most important thing. You don't want to start dumping time and money into a project if you'll be needing another engine.

What mods do you see to the bike (other than flat black paint and a bunch of crud )? All I see is the exhaust and maybe a horn?

There has been a lot of talk recently about pulling the engine. Do a search. The hardest part is managing the bulk, I've done it twice now on two different XJs and it's not hard. Coincidentally, I did it the hard (haynes manual) way, there is a lot of advice out there to make it even easier.

Finally, why are you bothering with insurance? I don't know what the rules in your state are, but you ain't gonna be riding that any time soon (unless you works some magic...and I've seen it done on this site). Hopefully you only have to title it in your name for now, and can deal with registration/inspection/insurance once you are much closer to getting it road worthy. Don't mistake "running" for road worthy. You'll want to get the whole brakes/bearings/tires/electrical/suspension up to snuff before attempting to put it on the road.

 

Re: A new project...

Thanks for all the pointers Manbot,

After a long wait on the phone with the DMV they told me that I did not have to register / get plates since this motorcycle can't be inspected. You are right, all I have to do is get the title under my name until it is "road ready". I didn't know that so thanks for the advise.

The previous owner told me that the current engine in the frame had issues with second gear (he said it was missing, not sure what he meant if it was shut, slipped or else) so he also gave me a spare engine that he saw tested and running and called that "the good one" so I my intentions are to get this "good one" on the bike since I truly have no clue what is wrong with the "bad one".

In regards of modifications The tail light is ugly as crap since it is attached with a piece of black sheet metal. Under the seat I found what was meant to be the fuse panel with no fuses. They modified the wiring to have individual fuse cases hanging not really secured (I do want it to look neat and organized)

The single multi gauge (tachometer / speedometer) is not the stock one nor looks good. At this time it does not have a fuel gauge or volt gauge at all. Yes the flat black paint (or what is left of it) looks awful so that is on the "to do" list but most likely at the bottom of it.

I will need to research a little more about testing compression on the engine that is off the frame.

This morning I started taking this apart (removed seat and gas tank with gas that is 2 years old), and got the exhaust mainfold loose.

 

Re: A new project...

For a bike that rough, I suggest Aero-Kroil. It's a penetrating lubricate that works wonders. Not one broken fastener on my turbo-seca that sat for 20 years before I restored it.

https://secure.cnchost.com/kanolabs.com ... ogle.shtml

You'll be replacing the fuse box with a blade style one anyway, even if the stock on was "fine."

Again, good or bad, compression test both. You might find the "bad" engine to have transmission issues, but the "good" one has bad compression, in which case you could swap out the transmission internals. But I think that's best done with the engine out of the bike (not sure, very had to dive any deeper than valve clearances on mine).

 

Re: A new project...

Ecologito,

If the parts engine shows bad compression numbers, top-end rebuild it. Use the parts necessary from both engines to build one solid engine. You'd have to dis-assemble down to the crankcase to crack the engine for a transmission rebuild anyway.

Gary

 

Re: A new project...

Manbot when you say that the compression test can be accomplished with the engine off the frame, please elaborate a bit on how to do that, bear with me if you dont mind. I found a compression testing kit on ebay for under $30 so that will be on the way today (unless I can pick one at autozone)

 

Re: A new project...

Make sure your compression tester has a 14mm fitting (for your bike). If another bike is in your future, for instances, an XJ550, then get one with a 12mm fitting too.

If the engine hasn't been turned over, you might want to fog the cylinders first, just to make sure the cylinder walls aren't dry after years of sitting. But all you have to do to turn the engine over is put 12V onto the starter (where the cable attaches), and ground to the engine case. As soon as you do, then engine will start spinning.

I used a car jump starter which has an on/off switch, so no sparks or accidental touching or grounding. If you use the start switch/button on the bike, then your starter solenoid, button, switch, ignition, and all of the wiring in between need to be working. Doing the test off the frame eliminates them from the picture. And you need to pull the engine anyway....

 

Re: A new project...

Although it doesn't apply in this case; when it's a "complete" bike you want to unplug the TCI (ignition "black box") to prevent damage to it. And yes, you should be able to pick up a compression tester kit at AutoZone; that's where I got one of mine.

 

Re: A new project...

All right I stopped at autozone and picked up the kit with the riht fitting and a new battery that I will need anyway. I will test the motor that is on the frame first, swap motors and then test the second one that should have the good gears. Thank you all for all your patience with me and i can't tell you how much I appreciate all the help (and I just getting started) so I will keep all he questions coming as work moves along.

Work on this project may take some time since I have a 12 week old baby and she takes quite a bit of my time

 

Re: A new project...

You can test the "replacement" motor out of the frame. All you need is somebody to hold it, and then just connect up a battery to the starter and it will spin. If the carbs are off, all the better, you don't need to hold the throttles open.

No sense installing the mill and then finding out it has "issues."

 

Re: A new project...

So I am back home and looking at the starter, I also looked at the wiring diagram on the manual, all wires are color coded... except for the starter

There are two plugs coming out of the starter and my gut tells me that the two prong is probably the one that goes to the battery... right?

 

Re: A new project...

The starter motor on the engine? It doesn't need a color code, it's one of the three wires on the bike that are as thick as you pinky Only the starter needs a wire that thick because of it's current draw.

There should be a red wire going from your (+) battery terminal to your starter solenoid (relay). A black going from your (-) battery terminal to the engine (ground) and a long black wire going from your other solenoid terminal to the starter on the engine. The starter motor itself is grounded to the engine by it's mounts.

 

Re: A new project...

Manbot,

You are really patient, I should think, look, then ask questions on that order. I got so excited about getting home with the new battery that didn't look at the box of spare goodies that my friend gave me. That is where the starter motor is for the spare engine. Now I need to ask on the Buy/sell/trade for bolts to mount the starter to the engine.

I feel like I made some progress today but I wish I had more time to dedicate to this project, between full time job and little baby there is not much time to read, learn, ask stupid questions and work on the bike.

Here is a picture of what I've done so far: remove seat, gas tank, exhaust and battery. As soon as I have bolts to mount the starter I will get some compression numbers.

 

Re: A new project...

Not sure what the specs are for those bolts, but you should be able to source them locally. Should be a dedicated 'bolt & nut' type store that with the specs-length, thread, size, etc. they will have them. A source like that will come in handy when 're' building.

 

Re: A new project...

Ecologito,

Congrats on your new baby girl...Save your $. It won't be long before she's able to look in your eyes and know...she's got you in the palm of her hand . Real similiar to what we have with our mothers especially when we are young. Speaking of saving money...what Manbot and MM are saying is "solid". I would, however, try to be as cost effective as possible. Test the compression on the existing engine. Remove the bolts from the existing starter motor and see if you have them in your box of "goodies". If not, use those bolts to install the spare starter on the spare engine. Once you have the compression numbers for the spare engine remove and dis-assemble both starter motors. Clean, inspect and test both. The best commutator and brushes are the ones I would use. Of course, if both sets of brushes are out of spec, which I doubt, replace them.

Gary

P.S. - When you remove the existing starter motor bolts do not dis-engage the motor from the starter clutch by pulling out on the motor itself. Thataway, the motor will stay put until you are ready to actually remove it. The bolts should come straight up and out. One is longer than the other so keep in mind how they are located.

 

Re: A new project...

Thanks rocs,

I did have some time after dinner and before baby's bath to remove battery box and starter motor from the engine in the bike. I will be testing compression on the "good" engine tomorrow morning. I am hoping for good numbers, if they show to be good enough number I will get shims to get things measuring right so everything is tuned and the engine is "sharp' and ready to run.

The next step will be to test the ignition system and service the carbs before attaching to the engine.

So far this process has been pretty simple with all your help.

 

Re: A new project...

Good attitude.

Did you find a service manual yet?

Once you tear into the carbs, and then get to the front brakes, the "simple" is going to fade out of the process. You're gonna need a book.

 

Re: A new project...

Bigfitz,

I downloaded the Yamaha Xj650 G Service manual as well as the Hayes Owners workshop manual.

The Hayes manual is proving to be really wordy where the Yamaha Service Manual is more graphic, and I am a visual learner so words don't make much sense sometimes.

I found a youtube channel from one of the forum's members:

http://www.youtube.com/user/mrmaxstorey

This is the best way to compliment the digital version of the service manuals. Watching somebody do it is a whole lot better and makes more sense than reading it (at least for me).

Here is a great one about adjusting valves: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3gxT57eoDE

I just got back from the store to get gauges to measure gaps and the new battery is getting a full charge.

 

Re: A new project...

So I got everything hooked, fogged the engine and got some compression numbers...

C1 - 150 psi
C2 - 165 psi
C3 - 130 psi
C4 - 130 psi

The first one I tested on the very first reading was 65 psi and got really worried. I applied more fogging oil and moved on to the rest. When I came back to it it read 130 so I am wondering how much this variation is due to the engine sitting on a shed for 2 years without turning, once some oil was in it was turning a little easier.

Are these good numbers to begin with? I know that the next thing to do is to get the valve gaps adjusted and shimmed properly.

 

Re: A new project...

They're not great, but you might still be ok.

The most important component to a compression test is the difference between cylinders; it shouldn't exceed around 10%, spec for the 650 is 14psi.

The fact that #1 jumped right up to near max, #2 went over spec, and the other two are just above acceptable, I'd say the fogging spray gave you what amounted to a "wet" test, or nearly so.

I would get the valve clearances checked, and see if we're looking at some tight valves, especially on #3 and #4. Then get them in spec, and re-test the compression.

Don't spray any more oil in there, you'll be turning the motor over a bit doing the valves, and by then the fogging oil should have all been distributed, dissipated and/or cleared out a bit so you can get a better baseline test.

Not great but not time to tear into anything major yet.

 

Re: A new project...

Thanks man, I don't know if this matters but I started on C4 and moved down the line, to C1. I am sure by the time I got to C1 the fogging spray worked its way through a lot better, that is why I went back to C4 to retest.

Here is a picture of the spark plugs that were in this motor.

C4 on the left and C1 on the right. They all seem worn evenly and I didn't see any blistering or oil sitting on them but they have been untouched for two years at least.

I will work on the valve shims and retest.

 

Re: A new project...

Inconclusive. Proceed.

 

Re: A new project...

Will do, as soon as I make another trip and get metric hex wrenches. I didn't realized that all I had were SAE. Who came up with the great idea of having different measuring systems?

 

Re: A new project...

Good luck on the project ecologito!

Sounds like I'll be able to learn a lot from you since we're both working on similar phases in our projects! Keep the pics coming! Hungry for the knowledge!

 

Re: A new project...

Ejpt trust me you will not learn a whole lot from me, I am learning by asking a lot questions and absorbing the knowledge from all the great people on this forum. I will share everything I learn along the way and try to document with pictures what I do along the way.

Please keep posting your progress and I am sure we will learn from each other.

My project bike looks like it just got pulled out of the dumpster compared to yours.

 

Re: A new project...

Count yourself lucky that you live now, and not 150 years ago. There used to be no fixed standards for fasteners: nearly every manufacturer used their own proprietary setup (so the customer had to come back the them for replacements).

 

Re: A new project...

If I was living 150 years ago the least of my concerns would be a bolt. I'd go to the blacksmith and get the generic version

 

Re: A new project, the abandoned xj650...

The Yamaha is pure metric all the way. Stock up; and be sure you get a 19mm socket.

You're going to need a set of allen wrenches (hex keys) and I would recommend at least one 5mm "bit" for your 3/8 drive set, for cover bolts and the like.

You will also need a torque wrench that goes down to "light" settings, 25~250 INCH pounds gives you a good range for all of the 7.2 ft/lb and 11 ft/lb kind of stuff. Most DIY mechanics have a torque wrench that's too heavy for most of the important stuff (although you'll need that one for axle nuts and the like.)

A PURELY metric feeler gauge, instead of an Imperial (American) gauge with metric "equivalents" makes checking your valve clearances easier. K-D Tools' #2274 is widely available. http://www.amazon.com/Tools-2274-Metric ... cenabled=1

 

Re: A new project, the abandoned xj650...

I am either going to borrow allen sockets from a friend or I am gonna have to make a trip to the store and buy my set.

Also on my last trip to Advance Auto I bought these feeler gauges:
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp ... ric+feeler

Very decent price and I learned after watching a video online and the guy had to bend the gauges to make them fit on a tight spot.

 

Re: A new project, the abandoned xj650...

On a side note I haven't done anything on the bike since I had to finish another project.



I just restored this 1930 fan, it is a really cool piece and needed some love. Now I will have a cool spot in the house when it gets warm.

Here is the before and after shot:




If somebody is interested I am willing to sell this bad boy.

Up next... more work on the bike

 

Re: A new project, the abandoned xj650...

So I had a few minutes to run out and measure he valves, I am not sure if doing this right,I turned the engine by hand until the valve is totally close but even my thinnest feeler gauge will not go through. Is that what I am looking for? Total clearance for the gauge to go through?

I did this on the first to piston intake valves with the same result if that is the case all valves may need new shims

 

Re: A new project, the abandoned xj650...

turn the engine until the lobe of the cam is pointing 180 degrees from the surface of your shim on the valve you are going to check. it is my understanding the blade of the feeler that goes through and dosent stop is the one you will use for your measurement. if you cant get the smallest one through you will probably have to pull that shim and see what you have, then put it back and check all the other ones for one that is a size or two smaller to get your starting measurement. there are folks on here that have shim pools . and they will most likely have a shim they can send you to get you started on getting some base measurements. hope this helps. and welcome!


ALSO! beautiful fan! nice job there bud.

 

Re: A new project, the abandoned xj650...

Thanks man,

I did check all the valves and none of them have any clearance when the lobe is pointing 180 degrees (away) from the valve shim. I will have to pull them all out, see the numbers and try to find one small enough to get any type of clearance. I may have to ask for a shim that fits the middle of the chart by shims/clearance and go from there.

 

Re: A new project, the abandoned xj650...

yeah buddy sounds like fun. im waiting on my new feeler gauge to do mine . should be here today. its out for delivery. lol while your pulling them pull them one at a time. record the size and what cylinder its on. then put it back and move on to the next.

 

Re: A new project, the abandoned xj650...

dang, i wouldnt want to be runnning that fan with a baby around either!

good progress moving forward on the bike!

 

Re: A new project, the abandoned xj650...

Generally speaking, a dead-tight valve will require a shim two sizes (or even 3 sizes) thinner to get it onto spec.

 

Re: A new project, the abandoned xj650...

ahh yeah. thanks for the correction fitz. you can normally swap them around and get some readings and go from there correct? or is it really variable depending on the bike?

 

Re: A new project, the abandoned xj650...

Yep. The only way to get it accurate for sure is to swap a thinner shim in, measure, and then use that as your basis for choosing a replacement shim.

 

Re: A new project, the abandoned xj650...

The clearance was zero and the at least the first shim I pulled out was a 280 so the chart calls for a 265 shim to get the ideal clearance.

Like you said the only real way to know would be to get one 265 or thinner, measure again and go from there.

I also ran into a hiccup with the first shim I tried to pull. The sleeve where the shim rests will pull up and down and will not come loose. I tried a few times and different tools and no luck, I other valve shim on the same piston and that one came out in no time. I will mess with that one later, maybe I am lucky and find out that all the valves are the same size. I will keep you posted on my progress and take some pictures as I move along.

 

Re: A new project, the abandoned xj650...

I looked at other shims and i found some 265 and a 265a, is the a an aftermarket shim?

I swapped the 280 for the 265a and is not as tight (the feeler shim went through as I was turning the cam shaft but had to turn it back to free it up) I am curious if I am gonnna need to replace all the shims for stiff on the thin end of the chart. My guess is gonna be to replace the 280 shims with 260 and the 265 with 240. Just by eyeballing what I found