Ball-less: Ball vs Tapered Bearings - '82 XJ750J Maxim

Now that my steering is ball-less, it has been suggested by Chacal to upgrade to tapered bearings....

Seems that the tapered route has performance, durability, & longer life....

Does anyone have experience upgrading their steering arm to tapered bearings ?

Dismantling my steering arm was rather easy. No need for a ring nut wrench....almost could loosen & take them off by hand....the bottom races that were pressed into the steering housing were punched out in about 5 minutes using a big long screwdriver & soft hammer......just took care to work them evenly around.....

Any input on tapered bearings would be appreciated.....

 

you didn't take the lower race off yet

 

I am watching this thread......

 

I have not done it on an xj but have on other motorcycles. Not hard to me its much easier then repacking all those little balls and hoping they all stay in during assembly. Last bike i did was a honda. I am sure chacals kit is much better then the all balls kit. The only cons i have ever herd about when going to tapered bearings is you have better feel with the ball bearings but unless your racing i would not even think twice. The ones in my honda were so bad the steering would self center its self. Taper bearings took care of everything grease them install them drive it about 100 miles and re adjust if necessary. I was surprised my 85 maxim x came with tapered bearings. To be honest with you if chacal recommends it i would trust him in a heart beat you can ask anyone on here as far as i know he has never done wrong by anyone he knows his stuff. And some advice buy the kit from him from what i hear his kits the upper bearings do not sit higher then the stock ones. The all balls kits for honda you have shims ect they are almost universal. Here is hint if you decide to go with taper bearings put your steering stem in the freezer let it freeze for a day or so. Put your lower bearing in an oven at 200 degrees til your ready between the expansion and shrinkage of the 2 they go on really easy i used a piece of right size pvc tubing to put them on. The races put in the freezer they go in easy also. Best of luck

 

Polock,

Yes, I know that.....just have not pry'ed it free yet....but thank you for mentioning.....

Any suggestions for getting this lower race off - an easy method ????

 

Without a detent for facilitating using a Drift it tricky.

I use a 9-Inch Line-up Tool.
I Dress the end to get as much of the O.D. as possible.
When I get the Tool making good contact; I give the Tool a heavy whack and hope the Race moves some.
Sometimes the Tool slips. I keep the end Sharp.
Battle it.

If I had to do one tomorrow; I'd Dremel away a bit of the Seat for a good shot at putting some Impact on the Race.
I'm sure it would be a whole lot less frustrating.

 

Maybe I will just take it down to the local motorcycle shop & slip them $ 10 bill for some cold beers....I bet they have it off in a matter of minutes.....

 

you don't happen to have a oxygen/acetylene torch laying around, do you?
didn't think so, that's the easy way.
if you grind a slot in it to tap it, do both sides. or a spiral slot around it it'll get thin enough to crack and cone right off.
your going to put some nicks in the shaft, just don't put big ones.
get creative

 

I took the lower race off with a punch. Just work around the circumference and it will be off in no time.

The tapered kit I got from Len is the All Balls brand. Good quality for sure. Don't even consider reusing the ball bearings.

Here are a few photo's from my Seca's upgrade.

 

Definitely upgrade to tapered bearings!
I used an old piston from my brake caliper to seat the new races in the steering head when I did mine. it's the perfect diameter!
I positioned the new race in the head. Then placed one of the old races against it and then the piston with the flat side out. Now you can tap the piston with a hammer and the force is distributed evenly to the race so it doesn't go in crooked.

If you have access to a welder you could just tack the piston to the old race and have a custom tool for seating races.

 

I've done balls (in school), several conversions to tapered, and straight up tapered replacements.

I don't know that there is any structural disadvantage to the ball bearings. Tapered eventually wear out too.

Most (all?) newer motorcycles use a tapered bearing, they cost less and you don't have to worry about a ball rolling away.

 

Ball bearing replacement with races would cost about $145:

Upper bearing bottom & top race $52; ball bearings $38; & lower bearing bottom & top race $ 55

or

Chacal's steering head bearings & seals kit are $50.....

Someone mentioned above you get better feel with ball bearings....

Besides the cost disadvantage with ball bearing, is there any advantage to replacing with ball bearings.....

I mic'ed the ball bearings.....seems they are 1/4" or 5/16" round.....

Does anyone know for sure the size of these ball bearings....just curious....

Still undecided which route to go......cost is not a deciding factor....

 

Tapered roller bearing sets are currently the "hot setup." Maintenance free and all that.

However there is nothing inherently "wrong" with the original design. If all of your races are 100% fine, no cupping or "detents" worn in them by the balls; and balls show no signs of uneven wear you could simply replace the balls, lube everything with a nice hi-performance grease and button it back up.

Most folks replace steering head bearings because the bike has been dropped and/or has enough miles on it that the original sets have developed a "detent" in the straight ahead position.

Whether or not tapered bearing sets are truly an "upgrade" over an undamaged, properly maintained and adjusted loose ball setup is open to debate. At the time these bikes were built, tapered roller bearings were significantly more expensive than the stock setup; that has since flip-flopped.

 

I am almost inclined to think that the original design with ball bearings was & still is a more superior design...with brand new races & ball bearings and well greased....that the movement of the steering head rolls easier & smoother vs a tapered bearing.......Just my opinion.....

I washed my balls with gasoline......they seem very shiny now & do not appear to show any signs of wear......LOL......

However the upper bearing races indicate some wear... but they even cleaned up nice with a dremel & stainless steel brush to them......

Not that I am going to re-use these, I just want to do a failure analysis.....

Are the ball bearings 1/4" or 5/16" for replacement purposes....????

 

the ball will move easier but no smoother, you'll never notice the difference.
the dents that ruin a ball setup can be microscopic.
if the races on a ball bearing aren't parallel (wider on one side) as the balls roll they slide or skid to a different depth in the race, then they get unround.
rollers do the same but there is so much more contact area to wear. and even inbeded in grease those loose balls are a pain in the .......

 

The ball bearings in my Seca had a very easy to feel (through the handle bars when put together) notch in the race. The bars would just "drop"into place when centered. The set I changed was the second set of ball bearings in that bike, the first set wore out way back in '84 and the dealer replaced those. When I examined the races I could not feel any notching. This would fall in line with Polock's comment about the notchs being microscopic.

My Maxim had 7800 miles on it when I bought it last year and those bearings are also quite noticeably notched. (A project for next spring ) I would be willing to say with a fair amount of certainty your races are notched.

A roller bearing distributes a load over a larger surface area than a ball so while no bearing will last forever the roller is a better design for many applications. As Fitz, said, balls were used as an economic decision.

Get the rollers.

 

Except tapered roller bearings are designed primarily for a radial load, like a wheel. The effective contact area when used as a steering bearing is quite small (it's the 2d projection along the steering axis). Realistically, they probably aren't any stronger or more durable than the original ball set up.

 

That was my point.

If you grease up a single ball and slide it around a race with some pressure from your fingertip, you'll feel any "detents" that may be present in the race. It's been my experience that the divots are usually pretty visible.

 

I'll let you know in about 5,000 miles. As I said I had the first set replaced a year after I bought the bike so I should know if they last longer or not in about two years.

 

Still an unanswered question: what size are my balls ? small or big ?

1/4" being small & 5/16" being big......

I mic'ed mine.....it measured 1/4" but J&P cycles sells 5/16".....

I am just wondering if anyone has ordered a set of balls..... & what size were they ? Did you have small or big balls....???

Ok..OK..OK...I am just forking around today but I am trying to be steered in the right direction.....

Ok..Ok....I will quit with the play on words now.....

Sometimes, one has to throw a little humor into working on these bikes, as they can be frustrating at times.....

 

Example of upper bearing races showing "detents"......

These are my original bearings from 1982......17k on them...they have never been changed...the time is now thou....

 

Biggs,

So you are on your third set of ball bearings ?? So you decided to stick with them vs going to tapered bearings. I am reading your post correctly ?

 

Polock,

Lower bearing bottom race came off with punch & hammer working it evenly around little bit by little bit.....took about 10 to 15 minutes of working it...

 

Yep. Third set in total. The first two were balls. I put tapered rollers in this past August.

 

In your Seca.....?? What bearings are in your '82 Xj750 Maxim ???

 

Yes, third set in total in the Seca. Tapered roller now.

The Maxim still has the original ones. I have a set of roller bearing to install but since the weather here is now crap ass it's going to wait until next year.

Interesting how I couldn't see or even feel any detents in the old races with my fingers but yours clearly shows them. Not sure what to make of that. Strange. I'll have to examine the ones in the Maxim closer when I replace them.

 

My steering moved very smoothly from side to side even to the lock position full left or full right.....but going back to center position it almost like snapped in & lock to a self center position.......so the balls were settling into their detent positions..

They were the original bearings, never re-greased and had 17k miles on them.......


Yes, neglected I would say...

 

Like I said, the divots are usually visible.

Obviously, those need to be replaced. So a retrofit to tapered rollers makes sense in this case; I'm betting they will last a tad longer than 17K miles.

 

Received tapered bearings kit:

All Balls Steering bearing kit # 22-1105…….It Contains:

One upper bearing # 99-3505-5 size 25 x 48 x 15 ( ID x OD x Width )

One lower bearing # 99-3506-5 size 30 x 48 x 15 ( ID x OD x Width )

Two dust seals # 33-1006

Chacal sells in his kit for XJ750J Maxim an upper bearing that measures 25 x 48 x 13.......2mm of less profile on upper bearing......

Mine will work but I may go for a more low profile bearing.....

All Balls Bearing will sell by part number, so one may specifically order a upper bearing & lower bearing by part number

Upper Bearing with Dust Cover Part # 99-3509-5 measures 25x48x13 (IDxODxWidth)

Lower Bearing with Dust Cover Part # 99-3506-5 measures 30x48x15 ( IDxODxWidth )

Oh, I forgot.....I have 38 ball bearings I don't need anymore......anyone need some balls.......

 

New Tapered bearings for steering column:

Procedure:

I put the steering stem & the races in the freezer......After an hour, I then tapped the frozen races into the steering column tube......I then took the tapered bearings & heated them to 120 degrees for a few mintues......the lower tapered bearing I had to bang onto the steering stem with a piece of galvanized pipe to get it to seat properly at the bottom....took quite a bit of banging even thou steering stem was frozen & the bearing was heated ....I greased them prior to putting on stem....

Now my question is preloading the bearings......

One needs to preload the bearings, then back off, then tighten the nut hand tight only, ckecking for binding. It then needs to be adjusted to give very slight drag, no tight spots or binding, and a full range of motion. These tapered roller bearings typically require torque vaues between 15 - 25 ft-lbs. In this way you are using the spanner nut as a damper for the steering.

Does one do this procedure with the forks back on the triple tree or off with just the triple tree connected???? ???

 

Forks on the bike along with the front wheel. You want to set pre-load and final torque with the bike in "as run" condition. Recheck in 100 miles.

 

the idea behind heating a bearing to shrink it on is to have it in place before the bearing gets cold or the shaft gets warm, no pounding involved. you could have gone around the shaft a few times with 600 paper until the room temperature bearing fit almost all the way on the shaft. then do the hot cold thing.
the preload is just to make sure the races are seated to the stops, don't need forks on.
then put it all together and set the spanner to take out all the play and add some snugness. now set the forks and wheel true in the clamps. tighten it all up and check the spanner nut after 100 miles.
where did the spanner nut and bearings as a steering damper come from?

 

So when it comes time to replace the tapered bearings....it seems there no edge to knock out the tapered races I just put in.......with the original ball bearings races ...at least one had a nice edge on both races to knock them out with a punch.......

seems these tapered bearings have there issues as well......unless one just replace the tapered bearings & not the races......

Just my thoughts.....

 

It will be a very, very, very long time before they will need to be replaced. The tapered replacements are rated for use on automotive drive axles. Your grandchildren will be long dead when those bearings will need to be replaced (assuming that they get cleaned and re-greased every decade or so).

 

The tapered bearings in my 900 were BAD at 24,500 miles.
PO musta been doing wheelies or some other abuse.
extreme close-up !!

 

That's the problem with steering head bearings. A vast majority of the time the load is constantly in one area (straight ahead). A wheel bearing on the other hand is constantly moving so the load is never concentrated in the same area.

I still feel taper rollers are the better way to go.

 

When it comes time to replace the tapered bearings, if & when,......it seems that the races are a PITA to remove as there is no real edge to put a drift or punch on to knock them out......it seems like they would have to be scored & cut out.......

vs

the old ball bearing type where one had quite an edge on the race inside the steering tube to knock up against....

That's all.....but I am glad I switched to tapered.....much more inexpensive to replace vs the original....

 

@ timetoride, that looks like it's from standing a long time. My E-II bearings looked the same...

 

time to ride,

How did you remove your races.....just curious for the future....

I just put tapered bearings in for the first time......& now I am worry about how to remove the races at a later date.....lol....

 

IIRC you can get on a lip in the 900 frame (mine's the same frame) as they had taper rollers from the factory.

You can get an expanding collet & slide hammer to extract them if there's no way to get on a lip though

 

Time, those bearings must have been used for steering dampers

 

Polock,

straight from Chacal installation instruction sheet.....

 

Removal of lower tapered race -
After tapping and poking at it with the usual assortment of chisels, without budging it, I reached for the angle grinder and 4" blade and made an angle cut. The race snapped on the next good hit.
I nicked the steering "stem" and dressed the spot to prevent a "stress riser" This had me sanding the spot where the new bearing sits, so installation was easy.

 

So in the end...tapered bearings are just as good as original ball bearings and a cheaper alternative but a PITA to remove the races if replacement is necessary......

 

As good as or better. Rollers require less frequent maintenance, and have a dramatically longer service life.

Depending on the application, yes. Making a relief in the headstock seat so a punch can get to the back side of the race, prior to installation, may be necessary on some bikes (probably on all XJs). That deatail is something that ALL Balls falls short on mentioning.

Repacing the old bearings and races with a set of ball bearings is perfectly fine. Just know that you'll want to follow the maintenance schedule for that type of headstock bearing so they don't get notchy or worn prematurely.

 

K-Moe....exactly right...there is no relief to get to the backside of either tapered race......hence one would have to dremel them out.......so I am satisfied I went this route.....and will deal with that problem down the road......once I get this bike back on the road.....

 

here's some other opinions. i think your going to find 25 is out of the question and 15 is even too much. i went for no play then about 1/4 turn and never had a problem. watch that youtube, good stuff
http://www.wristtwisters.com/forums/f32 ... 25669.html
http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/tech/1 ... intenance/
http://www.vintagebmw.org/v7/node/9672
http://home.insightbb.com/~mmartin36/Taper.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvsDIq3W ... re=related
http://w6rec.com/duane/bmw/steeradj/