Bike still won't start after Starter rebuild

Oh boy. I'm afraid I may have bitten off more than I can chew with this one. I've included a video with the issues that I'm having.

So here's a little background. I bought this bike not running, and that's how it currently stands. I feel like I've done just about everything I can to get it running, but to no avail. I've cleaned the carbs, (I'll be changing the valve shims this afternoon), purchased a new battery, new starter solenoid, rebuilt the starter, cleaned all the fuel lines, de-rusted the gas tank, rebuilt the petcock, de-gummed the master brake cylinder, and probably a few other things that I can't remember right now. I've gotten it to run a few times, but it's either only been for a few seconds and then dies, or it revs up to 7k RPMs, and it's scared me, so I shut it off.

When I bought the bike, the starter would at least work, and it was working fine up until about a week or a week and a half ago. Then, the starter stopped cranking. After researching online for the solenoid "click", I figured it was worth a shot to replace the solenoid (seeing as how a new one was only $8). Replaced that, no luck. Then, I figured I'd try the starter. I rebuilt that this afternoon with new brushes, o-rings, and lube (not on the armature, of course) etc. I was sure that would fix it.

After sticking it in my bike, this is what I hear. The solenoid still clicks, and then I hear almost like a "hissing" sound with it. Any ideas?



Also, something else that is probably related -- when I bought the bike, the lights on the instrument cluster would come on (the green light saying 'neutral', and the 'voltage' guage would perk up whenever I would turn the key). A few days ago, that stopped working. Did I pull a wire somewhere? I checked the fuses, and they all seem to be working okay.

Just pulled out my voltmeter. The battery is reading 11.6 volts. I can stick it back on the battery tender if needed, but this should be enough, shouldn't it?

Any help is appreciated!

 

Starting Load Test:

a) Adjust voltmeter to DC volts (20 volt range).

b) Place voltmeter leads to the battery terminals (positive to positive and negative to negative) .

c) Watch the voltmeter as you start your motorcycle, but before the engine is running.

d) If the voltage drops below 9.5 volts, the battery has very low capacity and should be replaced.


If you don't have AT LEAST 9.5V (and it's better to have more like 11-12V) while cranking, the coils aren't getting enough voltage to fire the spark plugs.

From the sound in the video, it sounds as if your battery doesn't have enough ooomf to ever turn over the starter.

With the bike IN NEUTRAL, you could hook up those jumper cable directly to the starter motor and see if you can eliminate the starter motor as the problem (the thick cable running from the solenoid to the starter motor should be hooked to the positive lead; the frame, starter motor outer case, or battery negative to the negative lead).

Of course an $ 8.00 solenoid might be bad, straight out of the box.........

 

So I'm almost completely positive that it's the starter. I charged my battery for a few hours, and it's reading 12.4 volts. Then, I connected the starter directly to the battery, and didn't have any luck. Touching the positive jumper cable to the bolt on the starter put off a good spark, but no spinning, nothing. Is there possibly something I could have done wrong when doing the rebuild of the starter?

 

The only thing that immediately jumps into my head is the condition of the commutator segments (the copper things) on the starter armature assembly....those copper segments look a bit dirty, they should be smooth, shiny copper (and if you decide to burnish them, use something like ultra-fine crocus cloth or 1500 grit sandpaper, you just want to knock the crud off the very top of them, not remove any real material).

Well yes, this is a problem. Start at the fusebox, make sure that there is current across the MAIN fuse. That main fuse powers the red wire that goes to the KEY SWITCH, and then coming out of the key switch is a brown wire.....this wire splits into 3 separate wires and all 3 go BACK to the fusebox, and provides the input +12V to the other 3 circuits. There is also a blue wire coming off the key switch, it provides power to the TAIL LIGHT (note: TAIL light, NOT the brake light). When you turn the key ON, the tail light should come one.

Remember, the power from the battery flows:

1) to the solenoid and also to the MAIN fuse
2) from the main fuse to the KEY SWITCH
3) from the key switch to the THREE OTHER FUSE CIRCUITS, and those 3 other circuits power the entire rest of the bike. Also coming from the key switch is power to the TAIL LIGHT.

 

I'll double check the fuses again tomorrow (I'm pretty frustrated tonight, so I called it quits until I get my motivation back tomorrow). I do know for a fact that the tail light is working, though. Even when the bike is in neutral, I can't get green light to come on in the instrument cluster. The turn signal lights don't work (on the instrument cluster OR the actual turn signal lights themselves). The red 'oil' light does flicker as I try to start the bike, though. I don't know if that can help anyone narrow anything down. Electrical stuff isn't exactly my specialty...

 

If the tranny is in neutral, that light will not light.

The signals are on the SIGNAL circuit and the instrument cluster is (probably) on the LIGHTS circuit. Just take you multimeter and check for 12V (to ground) on both sides of each fuse (with the key switch ON).

 

Are you sure about that? Just a few days ago, that light would light up nice and green whenever I shifted into neutral from 1st gear (even without the engine running).

 

So here's a follow-up video of my starter issue. I wonder if anyone else can shed more light on it. I got it so that it at least sounds like the starter motor is working. But it's definitely not turning over the engine. It doesn't even sound like it's trying to start. It kinda sounds like the gears on the starter motor aren't catching? But it's pushed in as far as it can go, and bolted tight. Not sure what else to do...



(Also, Chacal, fuses look good. Tail light and headlights work fine.)

 

I suspect a typo. Chacal's message should read "If the tranny isn't in neutral..."

The sounds I hear when you first hit the starter in your video are of a starter motor that turns fine, and a starter clutch that needs attention. It sounds to me like the rollers are either stuck, or so worn that they are not even trying to grab the alternator shaft.

 

Okay. I was gonna say... The light still isn't coming on, even when in neutral like it would before. Not sure if that would have anything to do with my starting issues. It seems to shift fine in and out of the various gears. Could it be something as simple as that lightbulb burning out?

 

If it were something other than the bulb burning out the starter would not spin without pulling in the clutch.

 

Which direction should my starter motor be turning? I feel like it's turning the opposite direction, and that's why it's not starting the engine. When looking the gear side straight on, it is spinning counter-clockwise. If I switch the polarity (by putting the positive jumper cable onto the frame of the starter motor and the negative lead into the bolt), the gear turns clockwise. What would cause this? I've tried re-installing the brushes every which way, and it doesn't seem to fix anything.

 

When you hook it up as intended it will rotate the correct direction. There is no other way for it to turn. It cannot turn backwards with the positive lead hooked to the post.
Your starter motor is not the problem; your starter clutch is (the starter clutch is inside the engine cases).
What oil do you have in the engine?

 

I'm pretty sure that you might be able to reverse the brushes inside the brush-holder plate, and thus have the motor spin backwards which, due to the design/operation of the starter clutch, would allow the starter to spin semi-effortlessly in a "backwards" direction w/o turning the engine over.......but, in the pictures above showing the brush plate installed into the starter motor case, it appears that the brushes ARE installed correctly and that the exterior stud terminal (which gets hooked to the cable coming from the solenoid) is mated up to the 2 red-cloth-covered wires (those are the positive brushes).

 

@k-moe, I'm not sure what oil is in the engine currently. I haven't replaced the oil since I bought the bike three weeks ago. I purchased 10w-40 oil and was going to replace that once I got the bike running. I just figured that since the bike wasn't even starting, getting the oil changed was low on my list.

@chacal Would you recommend trying anything? Should I swap the brushes? I've removed the two brushes with the red sheathing on the wire and flipped them (upside down) hoping that that would make a difference. But as you say, if they're both positive, then swapping just those two shouldn't make a difference at all, would it?

 

As I said, the starter is not the problem.

The starter clutch is not in the starter motor, and it is the starter clutch that is not working properly.

You may get lucky and find that the PO used an automotive oil with an energy conserving rating. Those oils are extra slippery, and cause the starter clutch so skip and slip along instead of catching. Try an oil change. For an extra chance at success spray a fair amount of carb cleaner, or brake cleaner through the starter mounting hole towards the front of the engine to help clean the old oil off of the starter clutch. Do that before draining the old oil. Then fill it with new motorcycle specific oil, or any of the recommendations in the oil thread that is linked in my signature.

The motor brushes have no effect on rotation in an electric motor with static timing (even with a time-able motor the brush position only effects the rotational speed and efficiency of the motor, not the direction of rotation). The dictator of electric motor rotation is the polarity of the EM field through the windings in relation to the magnetic field in the can magnets (or the field coil in a starter/generator). The only way to reverse the starter motor's rotation is to hook the positive lead to the case, and ground the post.

 

Isn't this the same as reversing which brush(es) were hooked to the positive post, assuming that the positive cable (from the solenoid) was actually hooked up to the positive stud?

I'm not saying that this is what has happened in this situation, just as a thought experiment...........

 

That would be true, if those brushes could be switched around in that way. Since negative brushes are soldered to the brush holder, and the brush holder serves as ground to the starter case, I don't see how changing the brushes around electrically could be done by anyone other than a very intent idiot.

 

Okay, well, you've given me some hope that I might be able to figure this out and get things working!

In my brain, however (which obviously has very limited motorcycle mechanic knowledge), it still doesn't quite make sense to me that oil could make that big of a difference (between starting and not starting, or even the starter sounding different -- in my mind, that would have to be the starter), even on a bike with a wet clutch. Because I haven't ridden the bike at all and I feel like the environment has stayed fairly consistent, it seems hard for me to believe that it's not the starter at all and instead has to do with the clutch. Regardless, the oil needs to be done, so I'll get that all figured out tomorrow and report back.

Also, an update on the lights on the instrument cluster: I feel kind of stupid, because everything said "check your fuses". And so I did just to make sure. But I went back and checked them again today. Sure enough, a 10A fuse had burnt out. Maybe it was just the lighting or something before, and I missed it somehow. Anyway, after swapping that out, everything comes on like it was supposed to. It still has the original fuse box, though, and one of the metal prongs is very brittle (or possibly already broken), and so @chacal, I'm sure I'll be putting an order in the near future for an aftermarket fuse box.

Guys, again, thank you SO much for your help. I can't say how grateful I am. Soon enough, I'm going to get this thing ready for the road!

 

You are underestimating the likes of people like me..................

 

If you flip the magnets the motor will go backwards but the motor won't go together right like that
Seems like he should get the "can of rocks" sound if it's the clutch but it could be real gummed up.

 

I replaced the oil this afternoon. I decided to tear apart the starter motor one last time in desperation. No luck. At all. I just want the damn thing to start! I am so out of ideas right now. Could it really be the clutch plates? I just have no idea what else it could be.

Just as a try, I decided to stick the starter on the bike, and hook up the jumper cables directly to the starter, but switching the polarity so that the starter motor would spin the right direction. No luck. It wouldn't spin. But it spins freely when not attached to the bike. Any ideas on that one?

I'm so frustrated right now...

 

Use a old screwdriver and jump the solenoid posts. See if the starter will spin.

Gary H.

 

Yup. When jumping the starter solenoid, the starter spins.

 

Isn't the brush assembly built incorrectly? All the brushes off by 90 degrees? I think this is similar to rotating the stator 90 degrees, which might reverse the direction of the starter. The starter gear should turn clockwise when viewing face on, or CCW when viewing from the rear.
You can stick your finger in there and turn the starter clutch / idler gear. Should freewheel in one direction, and not turn in the other direction. The starter needs to spin in the direction which does not freewheel.

 

As you can see from that above picture, however, there's no way that the positive brush would be able to slide into the slot that you are pointing to (with the arrow). The metal bracket that holds the brush has an indentation on the side that allows room for the wiring that is connected to slide in and out freely as the brush is worn away. The bracket that you're pointing to doesn't have such an opening on that side, which is why the brushes are currently set up as they are.

 

The slot that the arrow points to is where the wire goes. The brush in installed from the inner diameter of the brush plate. The brushes then have to be held back against the spring pressure when installing the brush assembly on the rotor. Here is the best pic I could find on a 550 starter:



Starting from the positive stud going CW - neg, pos, neg, pos. In your brush assembly you have pos, neg, pos, neg

 

Rooster, I LOVE YOU. I love you, I love you, I LOVE YOU! Seriously, you are THE man. I owe you dinner. I had been installing the brushes from the OUTSIDE of the brush ring, not the inside. Stupid me! And now, it makes so much more sense. The brushes go in one direction, and the other side has the spring. Previously, the spring was either really close to, or sitting on top of the wire leading to the brush itself, and I kept thinking to myself, "Well, that wasn't designed very well, now was it?" Oh my goodness! So -- my bike still doesn't start, but that's an entirely other issue that I'll have to play around with after work. Rooster, THANK YOU. THANK YOU!

 

Not necessary, I am just like so many members on XJbikes.com, it's just nice to help out and that is more than enough gratification.

Been there done that, just have to laugh with one's self sometimes as we do get quite creative. It's all part of the learning process.

So the starter is cranking the engine now - I hope? I was only speculating on the misplacement of the brushes causing a reversal. If so, then we have all learned something.

 

Yup. The engine now cranks over like it should. Right now my battery is sitting on the tender, though, because I tried to crank it so many times. So I'll have to try again either later this evening or tomorrow.

As far as the bike not starting, I think it's just starving for fuel. I feel like it's probably somewhere around where the fuel line connects to the carbs. I'll have to pull it off sooner or later to check it out, but the first time I pulled off and cleaned the carbs, they were a doozy to get back in, so I'm kind of dreading that job. Haha.

 

Hmmm... looks like I need to get my old books out and see what part of electric motor theory I have forgotten about. Thankfully there's always room to learn (or relearn).

 

Not sure how far you went on the carbs, but this is a great read to get them in good working order:

http://www.xjbikes.com/forums/index.php?threads/in-the-church-of-clean.14692/

Also, if you haven't done so, check out the "information overload hour" in k-moe's signature, it is loaded with good information to get these bikes running as well as making them safe and reliable. From your initial post it looks as though you are off to a good start.

A compression test may be a good thought for poor starting, especially if the bike has not been run in a long time. It is also a good baseline for the engine to know what you are working with. Details on the procedure for the compression test are outlined in the information overload hour.

 

Cool beans. This is good stuff. Kudos to rooster; you nailed it. I would never have gotten it.

Gary H.

 

Uh oh, Rooster. You may have just become an XJ Electrical Guru. Prepare yourself for the onslaught!
Great job. Now fix my wiring harness.

 

Having the "starter in reverse" issue as well; my 650 starter is a bit different than the 550's. When I hit the stater button the gear spins clockwise while looking at the butt of the starter (installed). The starter clutch needs the starter to spins counterclockwise in order to engage. Seems to me the only way the brush plate/brushes can comfortably go are the way I have them pictured. The housing notch is aligned with the plate, and the positive post easily hangs out of the housing hole. I can't see how the brushes could be swapped as there are only two. I did rebuild the starter a few months back, and this is the first time trying it...

 

Not sure where you got the brush assembly from, but it looks as though the brushes are installed incorrectly. Note in the pictures below the difference. The positive brush should be located 90 degrees from the alignment notch. Yours is located directly across from the alignment notch.

 

I think you may be right. I miraculously did save my old brush plate; found it after digging through various parts I am ready to pitch. The old plate has the POS brush at 90 degrees from the notch. The plate in the pic is a kit off fleBay. I'll transplant the new brushes to the old plate tomorrow and see if I've cured the problem. Thank you!

 

I did this last night and mine won't spin at all. Fully charged battery and all I don't get it. Mine is off eBay as well so I will also check to see the alignment. This is on a 81 xj650

 

The following is NOT meant as a personal attack; but it needs to be said and more importantly it needs to be heard!

I keep telling people to buy their goods from XJ4Ever so that they get the right stuff...... But noooooo, I gots to save a couple dollars- how's that working for ya now?

 

LOL yea i feel pretty dumb now.

 

And take pictures makes reassembly much easier. Because most of us don't have photographic memory.

 

I've boughten a lot of parts though XJ4EVER. After looking at the eBay auctions I can tell I ordered the incorrect plate just from the picture. I'd have been fine if I'd have matched the old plate with the right auction, not just one that said xj650 starter kit.

My EBC brake rotor was nearly $50 cheaper elsewhere. Sometimes you gotta shop around, but pay attention.

 

this is the one that i bought

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Starter-KIT...?fits=Model:XJ650&hash=item415f1fadc9&vxp=mtr

 

One I bought was over $20; didn't have the stock image.

 

I took my starter back apart everything matches up to the original. Put it back together still nothing full battery all I here is the starter relay click

 

Transplanted the new brushes onto the old plate and my bike is finally alive again.

 

Lucky you lol

 

You may have a bad relay even though it clicks. If you jump the two large bolts on the relay will the starter spin?

 

It's been a months long, trying, but genuinely enjoyable process. All I can tell you is be patient, and don't overreact as I've done more than once...

 

I just bought a new relay and new battery as well