Broken intake bolt= Big mess... Help?

Hi all! My name is Jon and i recently purchased a 1982 xj650 off of craigslist as a project bike. It had been sitting for about 2 years and could not be started. Since it only had 12k miles, i figured the carbs were just dirty and needed. Anyway, after i took the carbs off, i noticed that the intake boots that connect the carbs to the head were kind of dry rotted and cracked, so i decided to take them off and try to seal them up so that there would be no air leaks. Bad idea! I broke the first bolt that i tried to take off. So, i skipped the second bolt on that boot and went to the other side. Long story short, i broke only one more bolt (but i was able to extract it with a few hours of attention.) The first one that i broke off was flush to the head, so there was no way i was using vice grips or anything. After hours drilling and a bunch of bits, i got it out! I then broke the tap off inside :cry: I thought about trying to weld a stud on the inside instead of retapping, but since it is aluminum, i dont think that it will work so well. The next option i have, is swapping out the head. I know a guy that has a motor out of a wrecked maxim same year as mine, and he said he would let me have it for $50. But, I am not sure how hard swapping heads would be. I dont have a lot of experience working with bikes and I dont have the money to spend on expensive gaskets. Any suggestions on what to do would be GREATLY appreciated!!!

 

They make tap extractors and you can drill it with a carbide drill bit its real hard metal slow speed on the drill and oil if you mess up the threads you can put in a heli coil to repair the threads searh videos on the web for how to's

 

The EASIEST solution that will not complicate the situation any further than it already is, ...

Pull the Head.
Bring the Head in to a Machine Shop that has a E-D-M Machine.

The EDM Machine will "Disintegrate" the broken-off pieces in the Head.
No hassles.
Quick and clean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical ... _machining

 

Your already looking at a gasket set. With only 12 K on that engine I would have the shop remove the broken tap and heli coil the bad hole. Also as long as its off have the valves laped and valve seals checked. If they are hard as a rock from age, replace those and because you should get them in a gasket set anyway. So last but not least, I personaly would get the head resurfaced and that will insure a good seal when you re-install it.
Get yourself a manual so when you put the timing chain and cams back in you don't bend the valves.

Good Luck
MN

 

Look up" tap extractor " I dont think it gets an easier or less complicated than that basically its a little tool with extension fingers that slide down the flutes of the tap and a little sliding collar that helps lock the tool to the tap might work not very expensive. Where are you located?

 

A predicament like this can suck you in too a vicious circle of "Trying-stuff" and making a Bad Situation, ... Worse!

The thing to do is Pull that Head and hand-over the problem to somebody who will take the situation you are in, ... and make it BETTER.

Get the Nightmare you got to deal with fixed.
Get the Stud and Tap burned out-of-there.
(You may need some Exhaust Studs burned-out, too.)

Go for New Valve Seals.
Add the "Lapping the Valves In" too.

You get.
A virtual Day-One Head.
With the Intake and Exhaust Holes re-tapped or chased, ... TREAT the holes with AntiSeize.
Win, ... win.
Use ALL New HARDENED Ex.Studs and Hard Stainless Caps on the Manifolds.

You got any situation you need to do involving the removal of Manifolds and Exhaust Headers ... E-Z-2-do.

 

Thanks for all the info guys! The tap broke off about 1/4 inch in the hole, so I dont really want to mess with trying to extract it cause i might mess it up for good. I like the idea of taking it to a machine shop and have them fix it, but like i mentioned before... i am a little short on funds right now. Do any of you have a guesstamate on how much i am looking at to fix it right? Also, what am i looking at in regards to gaskets? Can i reuse the one thats on it or do i have to buy/make another one using RTV or somthing? If you havent already figured it out, I have never done this sort of thing before :? @waldo I am in northern Va bout 15 min north of Culpeper.

 

For what you have to do; you NEED a Workshop Manual.
Get yourself a Workshop Manual, ... some kind-'o-way!

Get somebody to help you.
A Small Engine Mechanic that needs a side-job.
An Automotive Tech that needs Christmas dough.
Create a flier and Post it at a Regional Technical School.
Have the Mobile Canteen Driver slip your number to a guy at a Auto Dealership who is behind on his tab.

YAMAHA says: You need a NEW Head Gasket EVERY Time.

I will say this.

I have reused Head Gaskets on XJ Bikes.
If the Gasket comes-off without being damaged; you don't throw it out.
Throw it back on.

But, there's extra work to do.
You have to treat the Gasket with a High-Tack Gasket Sealant.

I use Permatex Hi-Tack Spray-A-Gasket.
It can be messy.
Spray the Gasket. Both sides. Twice.

Shoot some in a Tuna Can and paint it on the Block & Head.

When you get it all back together:
Run-it.
Let it cool.
Re-torque.

 

You're looking at a couple hundred for gaskets and valve guide seals (unless Chacal sells a kit at a lower price point). Machine shop rates will vary by location but probably $100-$200 to get the tap out and do the work on the valves.

You're going to need valve shims after lapping valves. Another $40-$50.

So $340-$450 IF you do the tear down and reassembly yourself.

If you don't have the factory manual and torque wrench you'll need those (another $125).

If you have to pay a shop to do the whole job it'd probably be cheaper to buy another bike.

Now, all the advice you've been getting is on how to do the job "right". Sometimes the budget just doesn't allow that. In that case, here is what I'd try:

I'd find the best welder in town. Find out if he can build that tap up so there is something to grab to unscrew it. Because aluminum has a higher thermal expansion rate than steel the tap should be nice and loose right after welding.

Since you broke the tap I'd guess you either tried to go too deep or part of the old bolt is still in there. You're going to have to sort that all out after the tap is removed.

 

Another option is a good used head off Ebay.

 

How about just dissolve the tap and bolt without harming the aluminum?

http://www.chemical-supermarket.com/pro ... ductid=574

But I have a more basic question: Why are you trying to do a "project bike" if you don't have money for "expensive" gaskets?

Gaskets will be one of the least expensive items you're going to need for a "project bike." You're going to need brake shoes, pads, lines, tires, etc., and a whole bunch of "surprise" items along the way.

It's not super expensive, but there is some budget required for recommissioning any old bike.

First necessary expenditure: A Service Manual.

Then go through here and read some of the articles: http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=27544.html so you at least have some idea of what you're getting into.

 

The "zero budget fix" would be to offset drill the hole along side of the tap and epoxy a stud into the hole, and, of course, offset drill the intake boot.

It's not under THAT much stress, but I admit this would be a sloppy repair.
As long as the stud doesn't pull out, and the intake seals up, it would work.

 

Well, the tap was an old one that i found in our barn and i think it broke cause it was just old. I probably shouldn't have been using it in the first place. How well and how long does it take for the chemical angle to work? I bought the bike as a project bike (project meaning it didn't run) in hopes of just getting it running and being able to drive it. I dont plan to do anything extravagant to it cause it is my first bike and i dont want to put a lot of money in it, and then wreak it. The only thing that it really needs, is the carbs cleaned, the brake master cylinder needs to be fixed/rebuilt, and the fuse box needs some attention. Other than that, everything seems to be fine on the bike. Oh, and now the head is all messed up.

Yeah, like i said before, i found a guy that said he would let me have a motor for $50 and i was thinking of swapping heads with that. What do yall think?

 

If that motor blows good compression, just swap the whole thing out.

What fitz is talking about isn't "putting alot of money into it." It's part of the "getting it running and driving it." Brakes and tires are important to putting it on the road. New lines, rebuild kits, tires, pads, and shoes will run you into th $300-$500 range. We're not talking paint and side covers here.

Unless someone went through that bike, replaced all the brake components, bearings, tires, put all new seals and gaskets in the carbs, intake, and exhaust, and shimmed the valves, then tried to clean the carbs, it didn't run, and said "Ah...f**k it" - this will be a TRUE project, and all that stuff will need going through. "Not running for 2 years" doesn't mean "maintained in prestine condition until two years ago." And even if it did...I wouldn't trust the PO on that.

Then again, if you are planning on "wreaking it" I would advise that you also take the time and money to either invest in good gear...or a will. Not to be a downer or anything, but this isn't a lawnmower or dirt bike you picked up on CL - just getting it running isn't good enough, so plan accordingly. Heck if you are going to put the money into taxes/title/registration/inspection/insurance, you'll want it to last.

Skimping where the experts on this site advise is a false economy. All of us have figured that out the hard way at one time or another.

 

At least make an attempt before you spend all that money. You are going to need it for all the other expenditures like Big pointed out in his post. If you think you know what a tap extractor is you probably have never seen or used one. Look it up!
There is a tool it is called a TAP EXTRACTOR its SOLE FUNCTION is to remove BROKEN TAPS it does nothing else. It is inexpensive it probably cost less than the tap that you broke off. There is no drilling required it will either work or it wont but it is at least worth trying first. My guesstimate is less than $20.00 for the tool new tap and the replacement bolts.

 

One more suggetion for you, Get some PB blaster or Kroil OIL and spray anything else you want to take off its penetrating oil You can find PB BLASTER in wall mart and just about anywhere autoparts are sold. Spray it on a few times over several days before you attempt to remove fasteners exhaust bolts are the worst for breaking off if possible heat up all fasteners with a hair dyer then spray. When it comes to working on these old bikes patience is paramount but SAFETY is priority one dont ride it until you have checked brakes and tires.
Best of luck to you. Merry Christmas Everyone

 

-Kroil works when PB Blaster won't; I have first-hand experience.

-You can't just buy a quarter-century old bike and start riding it.

BRAKES: XJ series rear brakes have a nasty habit of delaminating. This can wreck you: http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=15874.html

Front brake pads will pull moisture from the air while sitting; once heated up again they give up that moisture and the pads can and will crumble. Your front brake is up to 90% of your stopping power; this too can wreck you.

Brake lines have a four-year life span, FIVE YEARS MAX. If your brake lines are original, they need to be replaced before any riding. Once again, this can wreck you.

TIRES: Your bike has tubeless tires. If they are more than 5 years old, SIX YEARS MAX you need to replace them, not ride on them. Check the date codes on the sidewalls; if there aren't any then those are some OLD tires and they gotta go. A blowout on a motorcycle can not only wreck you, you could die.

SAFETY IS PARAMOUNT. It will take a few hundred dollars to make the bike SAFE to ride, and a couple hundred more to make it reliable. Sorry, but that's the honest HARD truth; you can die doing this. You need to minimize that risk, and making the bike SAFE is one major way.

This is not an '82 Cavalier; you can't just start riding it, like you would start driving an old car. When a 25+ year old car fails, you coast to the side of the road and bum out. Certain possible failures at say, 60mph on a 25+ year-old BIKE will buy you a couple weeks in the hospital, or worse.

You gotta take this seriously, or you're going to get hurt and forced to take it very seriously.

 

Well, considering all this, I think i am gonna rethink my gameplan. Since there is no point in getting it road ready if i am going to end up parting it out, I want to get it running before i start spending money on tires and brakes and stuff. So the head and the carbs are my number one priority right now. I am going to try some stuff and see if i cant get the motor to a point where i will be confident that it will be worth my time and investment. I am probably going to turn it into a longterm project meaning ill work when ever i get the money to do it right. Thanks again for all of your help and advice!!!

 

Much better idea. We honestly don't want to see you get hurt, and will be more than happy to help you get it right.

Take your time, fix the mill, and then once you know you have a runner, "attack" the rolling chassis. Once you have a good running motor in a safe platform, then go after cosmetics (of course anything that had to get fixed in the first two phases will already look a lot better.) Along the way, you'll learn a lot; and if you stick with it the end result will be worth it. Check my gallery.

Back to your original question: I don't have any first-hand experience with the "chemical solution" (dissolving the ferrous metals while leaving the aluminum alone) it was posted by another member a while back.

However, it makes complete sense. Poke around on their site, those guys really seem to know their stuff; and if it DOES work, $42 is a lot less than the cost of everything that comes with pulling the head and having it serviced.

You're gonna need some Kroil too, trust me: http://www.kanolabs.com/google/ and it's not expensive.

Your FIRST investment, while you work out the broken stud issue, needs to be a SERVICE MANUAL. You can learn a lot just by carefully studying the manual, and you can ask questions here and use the "search" feature.

The bike only has 12K on it; chances are you've got a real solid property on your hands if you take your time and do it up right.

Have you done a compression test yet? That's a major decision-driving factor.

 

Yeah, i actually used some carb cleaner and had it running for a while... It was real rough but it ran.

 

I agree, it's definitely a good game plan to get it running first. Just wanted you to set reasonable expectations and budget for the end goal (getting it on the road)

Running does not equal good compression. I met someone at a get together a couple of months ago who had a 20000 mile 750 seca that looked great, all original. Ran fine but he complained that the top end power was lacking. Found one low cylinder and one really bad cylinder.

A quick compression test will tell you exactly what you're working with. That one would actually DRIVE, and had two bad cylinders, these engines don't like to quit.