Clutch and Shifting questions.

Okay so I've been searching the forums about clutch/shifting/oil etc and read pretty much everything I could find about it and found alot of mixed opinions, but I couldn't find anything that was really applicable to my situation.

So I have an 82 maxim 650. Its got alot of miles on it but a brand new clutch. The clutch plates/disks are barnett. the springs are also new but I'm not sure if they are barnett or not.

The bike seemed to shift pretty hard, almost impossible when I first bought the thing, I tore into it and found the following problems:

1. the shift lever was one spline to far up and my foot wasn't getting the leverage required to get the full shift. I adjusted it to where it should be.

2. The oil slinger or whatever that piece of metal that clips to the case under the back side of the clutch was missing, I don't know if this allows more oil to get to the clutch if it was really a problem or not. Either way i put one in.

3. When I took the clutch apart the friction plates seemed to have some sort of oily gunk in the recesses between the raised surfaces on the disks. I cleaned them extremely well with parts cleaner. Cleaned the plates too.

4. Both the inner drum and outer drum had VERY significant notches grooved into the metal where the plates tabs/teeth grab. These notches were very noticeable and they almost looked like a miniature grip on a knife or a scalloped fret guitar neck, Like they were bad. I took both the drums and a whole night a case of beer and a very sore arm later i got them all smooth again, Did it all with a file to cut, then emery cloth on a straight surface to smooth and then finer emery cloth to finish. moving the plates on the drum by hand felt better then before, and the bikes clutch definatly feels better then it did on the road.

5. Finally I was told that the clutch lever was supposed to have free play in it to allow for the plates to separate a little at high speeds or something along those lines and had it adjusted as such, then reading the article posted by Rick I realised the error of my ways, I followed that article to a tee and I'm now getting the full throwout of the clutch with no slip.

Basically the bike is still shifting harder then it should, it's worse when it's cold. It clunks into first very hard and the bike jumps forward. It does not red light creep, when it's in first I can roll the bike back with my feet very easily. When i'm on the road shifting from 1st to 2nd is hit or miss, sometimes I get neutral instead. Going to any other of the gears the peg feels harder to lift/press then it should.

When I'm shifting up, I pull the lever, apply pressure to the shifter and wait a second, it seems as though once the rmps drop a little bit the lever then goes the additional length it needs to under the same pressure of my foot I originally applied.

When im downshifting, mainly only from 3rd down, I pull the clutch and rev the the bike before I shift, When I do rev the bike the back wheel still has power going to it for a splite second, This is very noticeable in first when Im coming to a stop sign. I will pull my clutch and rev the bike and it feels like the bike moves just a little bit and then the clutch slips again, like its "sticking".

I've tried a few different oils. when I first got the bike I had some bulk 10-30 in it, It shifted better then I does now. The first change of oil I did was 2 quarts of castrol 10-30 and half a quart of lucas synthetic 10-30. The lucas is blendable and I generally put a little bit of it in anything I can.

This seemed to work the best, now the castrol/lucas was in it BEFORE I fixed the notches wore into the clutch drums, and it shifted better then when I fixed them. After I re assembled the clutch I put shell 15-40 in it as per some of the opinions on this site, It's shifting hard, really hard. I also tryed 20-50 motorcycle oil, I believe it was castrol, to the same effect.

I think that 15-40 and 20-50 is a much to heavy oil for my climate, I'm riding in 5C(41F) to 25C(77F) weather. It dosen't get any hotter then that here.

So, it's very driveable it's just annoyance, and I'm worried that it shifting the way it is is going to damage something in the transmission.

Any opinions are appricated, I'm going to try putting some 10-30 in it again and see how that works out tomorrow.

Also, a note on the clutch plates/disks. I did soak them in oil before I put them back in and I DID NOT check if they were warped, I didn't have a piece of glass handy and since they were new I was assuming the pitting int he clutch drum was causing my shifting woes and didn't bother to check, I probably should do that when I change the oil again.

 

They do tend to clunk into first, especially if cold.

On my 650 I found a very narrow range where the clutch wouldn't slip, yet would release when the lever was pulled. You might want to try tightening up the cable just a bit.
Your post leaves the impression that the clutch was rebuilt by someone other than you.. It could have wrong parts, warped plates or just plain assembled wrong.

The gears in the transmission are designed to pull together if there is any torque. This makes shifting difficult if the clutch isn't fully disengaged. I wouldn't worry about the shifting until the clutch is working properly.

 

The barnett plates and springs were installed by the po. I personally tore apart the clutch and fixed all the notches in the drum teeth then rebuilt it properly. Like I said though didn't check for warped plates.

I got some spare time and I put 10/30 oil in it. It dosen't seem to have the sticking issue anymore but still pops and clunks when I'm shifting into first or 2nd from first.

Tightening the cable any more will allow slip. When I pull the clutch the trow out lever is being extended as far as it will go, When the lever is pulled I cannot manually move the throw out lever even a millimeter more with a pair of pliers.


Another thing I forgot to mention. When shifting from 1st to 2nd. It goes hard. But if I shift from 1st to neutral to 2nd its smooth as can be.

So I guess im going to tear into again and check for warped plates

 

I've only ever been in one once, and it was awhile ago.

Is the pinion (#23 in diagram) toothed all the way around? If not, and it's not indexed properly to the push rod (#3 in diagram) I can see where it could bind before the clutch is completely released.

 

Yeah there's nothing wrong with the pinion. The clutch lever would stick then, no? Or at least it would feel funny.

The clutch lever feels 100%, It just does the sticking thing at low rpm. Like I will put the bike into gear and drive to the end of my driveway, pull the clutch revving about 3k and the bike still has power to the wheel until i snap the throttle then i feel the clutch release and the wheel no longer has power going to it.

 

Oh yeah another thing I wanted to ask, the thrust washer, number 6 on the diagram there. The Haynes manual said to install with the "grooved side" a certain way. And I believe I read somone having hard shifting issues on this site fix their issue because the thrust washer on backwards. But my thrust washer was the exact same on both sides, both sides had grooves just at 90degrees from one another.

 

Checked the plates, none of them are warped. Could the hard shifting and 1st-n-2nd problem be shifting assembly or something else in the gear box related?

I'm pretty much stumped.

 

did you ever measure the clutch plates? since their form a PO and a third party might be a good idea
friction plate 3mm, limit 2.8 mm
are you pretty sure the lever is stock? the geometry might be different
try taking all the free play out of the cable and then some, the clutch might slip but it will release all the way for sure, see if that changes the problem
it might give a clue to where the problem is

 

plates and springs are all within range, at least the range in the hanyes manual.

the lever is stock and not bent or anything.

adjusting the cable seems to do nothing, I can make it slip at this point but I cant make it open any further, when I pull the lever the clutch is getting the full throw out.

 

I find my '83 Maxim 650 to suffer from the same problem. Maybe not as bad as you describe, however.
I was wondering if it might be grips on my handlebars. The PO put them on and they are quite a bit fatter than stock grips. I don't think I'm getting full travel of the clutch lever, and therefore not fully disengaging the clutch.
Anyone found this to be an issue?

 

To compensate for this you could move the throw out lever on the clutch counter clockwise one spline on the rod, no?

 

bump

Still am dumbfounded as to what causing this.

 

bump

 

JWG did you ever find the fix? I am having a similar problem.

 

Jwg88 I suspect the problem is still that your plates are hanging up on the hub or in the basket.

From what you describe, the extreme grooves worn in the hub and basket were really too deep to be smoothed out and have those parts still function correctly. Even if you got them as smooth as smooth can be, you would have had to remove too much material, meaning that the "engagement" between the plain plates and the hub AND/OR the friction plates and the basket now has too much play and will bind as a result, even if they're not "catching" on notches. The Barnett components fit "loose" in a perfectly un-worn hub/basket to begin with, and now that you've removed so much material smoothing out the grooves there would be even more play.

Take the clutch apart. Take a plain plate and look closely at how it fits on the hub, and how much play it has. Examine the "teeth" on the plate, is there any mushrooming or excessive wear evident? If you "load" the plate rotationally against the hub, does the plate still slide freely "in and out" on the hub? I'll bet not.
Do the same test with a plain plate and the basket.

It sounds to me like you may need to start looking for a new hub and basket. Low-mileage components come up on eBay all the time, and there is a lot of interchageablity so they're not too hard to find.

If the teeth on the plain plates have become worn or mushroomed (or if the plates are warped or blue) then they will need to be replaced as well.

Check the thickness of the friction plates too; Barnett or not you may need some new clutch "guts."

 

Mine shifts really heavily when cold as well, and is hard to find neutral until the engine is fully warmed up and has been run for 10-20 miles. It's annoying, and does have a little of that "still engaged" feeling the thread starter described when goosing the throttle with the lever pulled in all the way. My bike is an 80' xj650, and my clutch lever feels awesome, light, no play, adjusted properly and engages fully/releases fully as far as I can tell. I'm generally running 20-50 oil in it here in Seattle..

Puzzling but I am thinking this is SUCH a common complaint with these bikes, that it's just something I will have to live with..