EFI conversion kit

G'day fellas! I have been going back and forth through email with a company that deals with fuel injection for small engines. Just to be different, I wanted to see if it's physically possible to introduce a fuel injection system on the bike. I've got an 82 650 seca that I've torn right down to the frame, and I'm customizing this bike as much as I can. You can go check out my thread on how the build is going so far. We've been talking about it for a while on a different thread, so I thought I would make an official thread instead.

Anyways, I've done A LOT of reading in regards to their installation manual and so on. The product that they're offering is pretty versatile. With this EFI kit, I would have to fabricate my own intake manifold and then weld in the bungs for the injectors. I was wondering if anybody has ever done something like that before and could you offer me some pointers?

At this point I'm seriously considering the conversation, all I'm waiting for is for them to explain to me on how their system is able to work with the TCI ignition on these bikes. Only problem is that the spark plugs always fire every revolution, and that's the problem I'm going to run into. I asked them if their software has the capability to be programmed so that it only fires the injectors after a certain amount of pulses. We'll see how it goes and I'll give an update.

Feel free to check out their website, I'll leave it to your imaginations.

http://www.ecotrons.com/products/400cc_to_800cc_engine_fuel_injection_kit/

 

I thought their kit replaced the factory igniter?

 

It is possible to fuel inject an XJ (the factory did with the XJ750D).
The only real question is if the kit you're looking at is easier to fit than the cobbled together systems that some members here have done.

 

Depends on the system I guess.

 

Well other than having to fab an intake manifold, its pretty much just plug and play.

 

So heres where I'm at with the EFI kit. Have a read and tell me what you think. Does this so called "kill wire" exist on the bike? The only wires that I think would work is the orange or grey wire coming out of the pickup coil. Or the red and white wire that goes to the ignition coils. Thoughts?

4.1.2 TCI ignition system

There are many engines that do not have a CDI. Instead, it has an integrated ignition module, called TCI (Transistorized Charging Ignition) system. For example, Honda GX200, GX390, etc. and Briggs & Stratton engines, those engines have an ignition module installed right next to the flywheel. And there is a magnet built in the flywheel. When the magnet passes by the ignition module, it triggers the coil inside and fires the spark plug directly via a high voltage cable. For this type of ignition system, there is no standalone pickup sensor. The only wire that comes out of the ignition module is the kill wire.

This kill wire could be used as the pickup because it is basically connected to the primary side of the coil. . The primary side of the coil will generate a big pulse with some oscillations when the magnet passes by the coil. After all, when you press the kill button, the kill wire is to ground the primary coil to suppress the trigger pulse so the secondary coil does not fire at all.

As said, the kill wire can pass the trigger pulse from the primary coil to ECU, but may do it with a lot of the noises. The noises are generated by the firing event of the secondary coil. To use the kill wire signal as the CKP input, some intensive filtering process is needed. The ECU has some built in filters to handle noises. In most cases, it can handle the kill wire signal with noises. But because there are so many different engines out there, some kill wire noises may not be filtered. In that case, you can use a dedicated Hall-effect sensor as the pickup.

To do that, you need to confirm with us that you need a Hall-effect sensor, an Ecotrons CDI, and an ignition coil from us. These 3 components will replace the stock integrated ignition module. You will need to install the Hall Effect sensor at the same location of stock ignition module. It seems complicated. But it gives the ECU the critical pickup input (from the Hall sensor); also, you get the fully programmable ignition control system as a result!

1) EFI Controls fuel only

For this type of ignition system, you can use the signal from kill switch wire as the pick-up signal. Keep the stock ignition system, and the EFI just controls the fuel. You need to connect the orange wire labeled as CKP from the EFI harness to the kill wire and connect the EFI green wire which labeled as GND to the ground of your ignition system.

 

I think this also means you get to (somehow) figure out how to program an advance curve to replace what was in the TCI.......

 

The ignition timing curve is given in the service manual. Three points from which the full curve can be deduced anyway.

 

Oh man, you don't even know! I brushed through their tuning manual of like 200 pages yesterday, and I have to say they really left no stone unturned in terms of programming.

Take a look at their install manual here:
http://www.ecotrons.com/files/SE-EFI-installation-Manual.pdf

Tuning manual:
http://www.ecotrons.com/files/Small engine EFI tuning guide.pdf

 

on a side note.....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-650-...ash=item2363f2173d:g:ZSEAAOSwezVW1fRs&vxp=mtr

 

Is this made out of plastic or metal? And precisely which metal if it is?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-650-...ash=item234dcd6747:g:fukAAOSwPhdVEY0z&vxp=mtr

 

a TCI is transistor controlled ignition, what they describe is a magneto ignition. you'll need a fuel pump and if you make your own intakes you'll need a fuel rail to match
if i was going to try this i'd look into
http://www.microsquirt.info/indexright.htm

 

The surge tank is made of long-chain hydrocarbons derived from dinosaur squeezings.

 

i believe someone asked before about putting a turbo on a non-turbo engine and the short answer was .....no

 

That's why I was confused, so then theoretically how could you use a TCI with this system? The kit comes with a fuel pump, and in fact comes with everything. Far better than the microsquirt in my opinion. It's a one stop shop, and their tech support is amazing.

 

What are the difference between the turbo and non turbo engines (internals)?

 

Haha good one

 

Surge Tank is metal, probably aluminum, and it has reed valves and a blow off valve in the rear. The thin filter box that connects the Air filter to the surge tank (not in the listing) is plastic. All intake bits before the compressor are thin rubber/plastic, all after it are metal (except the intake boots between the surge tank and carb) to deal with the increased air pressure out of the compressor.

But yeah, Turboing a non-turbo bike isn't easy. If you're doing EFI it's easier because you aren't on a mission to just slap it all together. But the turbo engine bottom end is beefed up and it has a lower (8.2:1) compression ratio, and there's the knock sensor. But other than that, if you aren't using carbs, you do get out of needing the whole fuel system.

 

we're going way past what i know about efi, but it would seem that a system that knows when and how much fuel to squirt should have no problem knowing when to spark a plug.
i think your tci box is replaced by the efi box that will control everything.
you should really try to get in touch with Sqlguy, he knows this stuff

 

I was thinking of using the surge tank as an intake manifold for my EFI kit.

 

Well in this particular situation, the EFI kit would be controlling fuel only, no ignition. I would be using the stock ignition. But like I said, there has to be a way for the software to be programmed so that it only fires the injectors after a certain amount of pulses. I got an email back today from the support, but they aren't much help at all even after I sent them a copy of the wiring schematic, they're dense as hell. She says to hook up the crank position wire to the kill switch. Ok? Which wire? There's three wires on my kill switch.

Hi, Lindsay
For four cylinders engine, our ECU only can control injection system only because there are two injection(fire) channel in our EFI system, so the #1, #4 injectors inject fuel(fire) at the same time, and #2 #3 injectors inject fuel(fire) at the same time. Our ECU can't control ignition system, so you can't use our ignition system.
You need to connect the orange CKP wire from the ECU harness to the kill wire, so our ECU can collect the ckp signal.
Thanks!
Alisa Lee

 

Xj has no kill wire. And what they say is a TCI is not a TCI.

They describe a magneto ignition. XJ does not have a magneto.

XJ has a TCI. Just like the Ninja. There are two pickup coils directly opposite each other, 180 degrees apart. Pickup coils have two wires each. These wires come to the TCI box as three wires - one common and two signal. These are TCI inputs. TCI outputs are also three wires, going to the ignition coils. One wire is power, and two wires are switched ground. TCI grounds the wire to fire the coil. TCI also has a ground wire and a safety circuit wire. Ground is needed for it to operate. Safety circuit wire is a kill wire in a sense - if you ground it, the TCI shuts down. This is not the kill wire they describe and it cannot be used to provide signal to the ECU.

The XJ TCI has two channels. Each channel runs two cylinders, firing at the same time. This is called wasted spark ignition, because only one of the cylinders is on the power stroke when the channel fires.

 

In all honesty you may be better off with a microsquirt system. The kit you're looking at seems to be geared more toward scooters.

 

More to the point you'll end up using twice as much fuel as it will be squirting fuel into one of the cylinders (from each pair) on every exhaust stroke. It say in the docs it's only for single or twins - forget it. You also seem to be falling into my favourite trap - spending/wasting time planning all the things you'd like to do in the future before getting the stuff done that you have to do now.. your six week deadline was over some weeks back I note.

 

I have all the time in the world to plan, the six week plan fell through as I wanted to ride for my birthday. I'll figure out something!

 

Can I program it to fire the injectors when they're supposed to?

 

You can program the microsquirt system to do whatever you want it to.
There is a huge following, and several forums. You may even find a pre-made fueling map for your appplication. I do know that is the system mos of the people who have injected XJs have used. Have had a chance to read through the posts I linked in the other thread?

 

Didn't mean to be offensive but you set yourself an aggressive time-scale and are now planning to increase the complexity project (something I do too). I would suggest getting all up and away on the carbs and then consider the Efi. You have though made some great steps forward and might be up to the bigger 'all-in-one-go' ideal more than I..

 

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Hi,Lindsay
For 4 cylinders system, we don't have the suitable EFI system to make four injection channels in stock, we do not have such EFI kit available now. If you want to work with us, you need to pay development cost like $8000 at least.

Thanks
Alisa Lee

 

Microsquirt has two injector output channels and no ability to add more, so if you go with that, you will still be firing injectors in banks.

Also, there is this:

https://www.diyautotune.com/support/faq/megasquirt-tech/sequential/

 

Yeah I read up on it, I'm just a little chapped. I was laughing at the $8000 price tag lol.

 

$8,000 to develop a new system (any system) is actually on the inexpensive side.
If there were enough of a market, It would not be inconcievable to negotiate a cut for providing development costs and marketing the system in the U.S.

 

So I had a read, and I really like the ms3 pro ecu. It does exactly what I'm looking for. However, I still need all of the appropriate sensors to make the system run. Ideas?

 

Ideas? here, convert this from his to yours
http://edmonton.craigslist.ca/mcy/5606211277.html

 

Yeah no I'm good lol

 

The problem is that they don't advertise, their marketing sucks. I'm sure if people knew about it, they'd go with a system like they have like a PNP kit. I asked the tech support at diyautotune to set me up with a kit, and he said he'll get back to me in a couple of days.

 

Have you been following the forum by member " Jonathan Caulkins " ?

 

Naw I havent

 

So got an email back from diyautotune, here's what they said.

Hello,

Okay that is a twin trigger setup and is supported with our MS2 and MicroSquirt ECU.

I am going to recommend the MicroSquirt for your application, the MicoSquirt will allow for batch injection and wasted spark ignition.

$339.00 MicroSqrt3: Assembled ECU (includes short harness & tuning cable)
$64.00 GM3bar-map: MAP sensor
$11.50 GM3bar_piggy: Pigtail connector for MAP sensor
$17.75 CLTIATwPiggy: Coolant / Oil temperature sensor
$22.25 IATwPiggy: Intake Air Temperature Sensor
$9.00 38NPT-Bung_A: Aluminum bung for IAT sensor (Also available in stainless steel)
$22.50 USB-2920: (Only needed if your laptop doesn’t have a true DB9 port)
$486.00 Subtotal without wideband

The wideband oxygen sensor system is optional, but a very useful tuning tool. We carry the Innovate line.

Wideband Options—

$189.00 LC-2 without gauge (you can still view real-time AFR and datalog AFR through your laptop)
$209.00 MTX-L digital gauge system
$219.00 LC-2 with DB digital gauge (available in red, green, or blue)
$259.00 LC-2 with G series analog gauge
$349.00 LM-2 basic data logger with one sensor
$479.00 LM-2 deluxe kit with one O2 sensor
$669.00 LM-2 deluxe kit with two O2 sensors

I think this will give you a pretty good start in the right direction. If you’d like to place an order, you can do so at www.diyautotune.com/catalog and it will calculate exact shipping costs (based on weight of your order) and accept all major credit cards securely. If there is anything else I can assist with, please just let me know!

Thanks,

Phil Koch

 

I misspelled it.... Jonathan Calkins