Hi there! Just got into "trouble"

Hi there! I have just bought.... errr... two XJ650 secas

I was looking for quite a while for something like this, and the oportunity arrived, and took the plunge.
So, the first one is complete, supposely ready to ride, but has sat two whole years without running.
The second bike is not complete, it is missing quite a few bits, I believe the most expensive might be the exaust, but could be a long term project...
I like to do most of the work with my hands, I have some experience with previous bikes (BMW R65, Suzuki GN250, Honda NX250), but do not have a huge amount of time at the moment, hopefully with your help everything can get faster

First things first, What should I check on a bike that sat 2 years? Before the PO left it standing, he did a big overhaul (spent 1300 euros, gave me the invoice to prove it), so there should be no major issues (hopefully).

Still do not have decent photos, but here it goes...

 

I wouldn't assume anything the former owner said or did was done correctly, even if they paid someone to do it. It has also sat with old gas (If Portugal mixes alcohol with fuel this is an even greater concern) for a couple of years. There is a lot of good "how to" and other information to learn to do things yourself. You can do it!

Think this way in terms of things to check:
1) Safety items first:
Tires (if old, they will be hard even if they have good tread)
Brakes
2) Performance items next:
Carb
Ignition
Gas tank/petcock
3) Cosmetics last!

Here are some things to get started:

Check brake pads in rear, and the age of front brake lines (replace if more than a few years old) and condition of pads: http://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threa...r-brake-bike-owners-please-take-a-look.15874/
Age of tires: if more than 5 years old, replace as the rubber will be drying/hardening.

If the carbs were properly clean, and if it was stored correctly, with fuel saver, etc. you may be ok there (don't assume anything the seller tells you that was done was actually done properly and thoroughly.) A betting person says the odds are you may have to renovate the carbeurators: http://xjbikes.com/forums/threads/in-the-church-of-clean.14692/

Check valve clearances and adjust as necessary. Valves tighten as they age and can cause damage if clearances are too small: http://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threads/bigfitzs-airhead-valve-adjustment-with-pics-parts-i-ii.116006/

Electrical: if the original fuse box, replace the actual fuse box as the original is nothing more than a failure waiting to happen.

Check out this read: http://xjbikes.com/forums/threads/tech-topic-the-real-costs-of-maintenance.14581/

 

cgutz has summarized everything nicely.
Now how about some real pics instead of the teaser you posted above?

 

If getting in trouble is two XJ's then you are in good company. You also say you like doing your own wrenching... you are in even better company!

Cgutz nailed it, so welcome to the camp. Ask questions there are lots of wizards here for mechanical and electrical stuff with these bikes. And add this to your reading list:
http://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threads/the-information-overload-hour.27544/

 

You have no idea how much this group has helped and supported me through through my build process.
Unfortunately, I'm asking for help again as she's broken...

 

Many thanks for the warm welcome, and also for all the information on where to start. Looks like a lot of work, better not hold my breath

Because I had not heard the sound of the engine, the batt was dead when I went to get the bike, I just had to try it first at home...

- It didnt start on the RES or ON positions of the petcock
- The PRI position did get gas on cylinders
- It started first but not all cylinders where firing
- I took out plugs and cleaned them, re-installed and it fired with what I believe all cylinders
- When I rotate the throttle, it first started accelerating, but then got dead - could it be fuel starvation?
- The furthest left cylinder still seems to not want to fire properly, the two on the right side are quite hot, the left not that much

I would really like to give it a try before cleaning, but does this mean I really need to start by disassembling the carbs and clean them all?

note1: fuel inside could be 2 year old
note2: I liked the engine sound
note3: Today I will take more photos
note4: Sorry about any written english errors, it is not my native language..

 

Old gas isn't good for the engine. Have you checked the condition of the inside of the tank. Is there any rust? You don't want rust or any other foreign debris getting into the carbs. You should drain the gas and assess before going any further.

 

I will buy new gas, just made a small video... it looks like all cylinders are firing now, does the enrichner inject more gas or more air to the mixture? It was racing when I blipped the throttle, only with the enrichner on...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

Hi

If you want to take a chance you could just add a some fuel treatment and add an -in-line fuel filter between the tap and the carbs. Then put a few miles on it and see how it reacts. Otherwise most people on here will advise a carb clean and valve clearance check as basic requirements
For brakes minimum will be a fluid change but sensible will be an update to braided hoses and new rear brake shoes..

Cheers

James

 

Actually the tank is very clean inside, no signs of any rust, but I believe I wont be lucky to get to ride before some work done

The bad thing is that I was in the middle of repairing a Vespa (you can see it on the photos), so I will get to finish the Vespa so I do not have two bikes off duty at the same time.

Meanwhile I need to study the subjects of valve checking/adjusting and carb cleaning/adjusting... from the post on the link above, checking valve clearances seems quite hard comparing to my only experience adjusting it on a old bmw airhead. Hope I can manage it...
The carb cleaning also seems to be a huge process, with hard to get off parts. That scares the shit out of me I must admit...

Is there a good service manual in PDF I could get my hands on? Is it better to buy a printed one?
I have the usual tools and wrenches, any very specific tools needed?

Best,

Sérgio

 

Here are some more photos... still all inside since it is unrideable





The muffler seems a bit beaten up, the bike makes quite a bit of noise, but that is normal, right?

The horn button is missing?

 

Yep horn button is missing. Try ebay - the switchgear on this is common with several Yamaha models so should be easy. Also the rear brake is looking close to the end of adjustment - new brake shoes needed?

 

Actually not too scary but you have to be thorough. and you may find that you need several odd sized o-rings in the rebuild process (use viton rubber where possible). Special tools? you would be well advised to get some JIS screwdrivers - the Japanese cross-head spec - or at least modify some Phillips type.

 

The valve clearances post is really nicelly done... was wondering, where can I order shims to these bikes if needed, and also the special tool?

Cheers

 

tool can be substituted by using wide zip ties or a 12 gauge insulated solid wire (housing wire) you insert it through the spark plug holes with the valves open and let them close on the zip or wire I use wire over zip ties.
logo in the upper right corner of page for xj4ever sells the tool and shims. you will find that when you measure it all out you should be able to swap most of your shims around and only need a couple of them.

if you use ebay you can use yamaha shims or bmw shims same diameter and not tapered edges

the tool part number is
90890-01245-00

a ebay search may find it for you closer to Portugal

if you check both motors at the same time you may find you have all the shims you need for the current running motor

 

change the fuel
your biggest concern with the carbs is stuck floats and bad needle valves allowing the fuel to flow into the crank case.

petcock is vacuum controled so prime is the only way to fill the carb bowls with out the motor running.

by gas on all cylinders do you mean carbs filled up and did not over flow?

unscrew the spark plug caps on cylinders that were not firing and trim back the spark plug wires about 5 mm to remove corrosion in wires.
do you know which cylinders are not firing?
cylinder 1 and 4 fire off of the same coil and 2 and 3 fire off of the other coil.
you should ohm out the ignition system specs can be found in this link

The Ultimate Relay, Switch, Sensor, and Diodes Guide

 

Hi XJ550H,

"petcock is vacuum controled so prime is the only way to fill the carb bowls with out the motor running."
how can I prime the petcock?

"cylinder 1 and 4 fire off of the same coil and 2 and 3 fire off of the other coil."
This may sound basic (sorry about that), but wich cylinders are 1 2 3 and 4?

Thanks

 

The cylinders that are harder to fire are then the 1 and 2, from diferent coils. Could it be that the bike is on its sidestand and fuel/floats are not on ideal position? But that should also happen on 3 and 4 cylinders, right?

 

unscrew the spark plug caps on 1 and 2 and trim the spark plug wire back about 3/8 inch wire could be corroded.

 

I just tried that, but I am having other trouble: the batt that came with the bike was 2 years old and not good to start the bike. I used a small booster that is already a bit old and now I am not beeing able to start it, even after charging the booster.
O know I must buy a new battery, but I do not like to spend money until I receive the bike papers with my name on it and check everything is ok.

Could a low electrical power mean not all sparks are in good order? Should I check and clean all electrical conections to ensure I do not have some power loss in the system?
I took a photo of the fuse box, is this the original one? Looks really flimsy :§

 

And if you remember I said on the first post I had bought two bikes, here are the photos of the incomplete one. Not sure if will be a part donor or if I shall spend money getting it ready to ride...
The exhaust might be the most expensive part to buy, also the airbox to carb parts are missing, and some other small bits. The front calipers were renewed and was told the rear shoes are new.

 

Hi Sergio

Yes they say that low power (volts) can prevent the electronic ignition box (TCI) from sparking - try to get a car battery or something to cable it up to. For fuses most people replace the standard fuse box with a modern 'blade' type - cheap and easy to get hold of even at your local motor store..

Cheers

 

Yes!

 

Bought new battery and cleaned all visible connections: bike starter is strong, and the sparkplugs give a nice powerfull spark.

Now the first and second cylinders still do not fire or almost not, cylinder number 1 remains mostly cold, and 2nd heats a bit but less than 3 and 4 that heat normally.
I used a small transparent tube to see if gas was to a good level on bowl of carb #1, and gas was getting there and looking at a good level. I really didnt want to start to dissasemble carbs, but is there anything to check for before that?
The fact that they do not fire well could be valve clearances or dirty carbs? Could this be related to the bike sitting down on its side stand? (carbs on cylinder 1 and 2 sit lower?)
Best,

Sergio

 

try adjusting the mixture screw.
yes your carbs could have a plugged up pilot jet circuit if this is happening when bike is idleing

 

I AM still a bit un-familiar, where or wich is the mixture screw?

 

Before diving into carbs (which you most likely should do), valve clearances should be checked and corrected.

The mixture screw you ask about is often times found under a small brass plug.
http://www.xj4ever.com/inside your carbs.pdf

 

front top of carb to the left side of the enrichment plunger in a recessed hole as you sit on bike
photo # 2 shows location to the right of plunger

OWWW, My Eyes!

 

Had a bit more time today, and after being fed up with the Vespa (awful and inaccessible brake hydraulics on a Cosa), tried some more things on the XJ:

- Got a tube on the #1 carb and saw that the fuel was low.
- Took all carbs just to adjust the bowl fuel level, think I bended a bit too much, but after closing everything level still seemed low -> have I done worse?
- Tested engine and #1 was still not firing
then
- Adjusted mixture screw on #1, it was 3 turns in, got it to 2 and 1/4 like the other are.
- Tested engine and same problem
then
- Closed half a turn on idle screw for #1
- Tested and engine run better, #1 firing
then
- Closed half a turn #2 idle screw
- Engine got really alive and got to idle nicely with enrichment on

Note: what I was watching as a problem was that #1 cylinder almost never fired and #2 fired more than 1 but not like 3 and 4.

Could this just be unbalanced carbs? I know I must do it right now, but I am feeling tempted to try to ride it a bit.

Meanwhile, it looks like with enrichment on, the engine races to 3000 rpm or so, if I close it it drops to 1200rpm. If I adjust idle screw with enrichment on, engine shuts off with it off. What could be the culprit?

Can I balance carbs with just a transparent hose and a bit of oil?

Thanks,

Sergio

 

We all understand the temptation, but safety should always be first.

Have you read this?
http://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threads/the-information-overload-hour.27544/

 

yes with a couple of meters of tube and some transmission fluid

 

This is carbs in need of refurbishing. Full stop.

IN THE CHURCH OF CLEAN


I'd also like to pint out that the mixure screws are to be adjusted by turning them fully inward until they barely seat, then count the number of turns out (counterclockwise) until you reach the baseline of 2 1/2 turns. You give the impression that you are removing the screws and counting the number of turns in (clockwise), which is an incorect procedure.

 

Ok ok ok... I was an atheist, but from now on I will start going to church!

Today I thought... "well, she's idling, she responds to throttle... lets try to do a small ride around the block"

Long story short: she doesnt have enough power to even climb the small ramp that exits my garage

So I am resigned to do the right thing and start taking parts and getting her ready. The reason I wanted to ride it a bit, is that I got no chance to ever ride it, and I recently became father (4 months ago) and do not have all the time in the world to wrench.
As such, all the work will take some time, because I get maybe 3 hours to wrench on a weekly basis

Now to the bad stuff:

- Looks like one of the hoses to the oil cooler is leaking. Can I just make locally a new hose on a speciality house? Will it squirt much oil when I remove it?



- Looking at the oil level window, it looks like its right at the top. Could I have gas on oil? My nose is not very good at detecting gas.


- Underneath the tank, there is superficial rust. Should I be worried and do something right now, or can I leave this for some other time later on?



- Looking at the throttle shaft, I guess It looks a bit wet... those seals will be needed for sure, right?



All these very specific parts, is there any european supplier? I do not mind ordering from the US, but the postage is higher and portuguese customs often take one month to clear the items that come from abroad...

 

If you really take your carbs to church, you're breaking the rack and if you're going that far, just replace the throttle shaft seals. It would be a waste of energy to go that far and just use the old seals.

 

you can use 2 #11 o rings for each seal

 

Yes, If I am going all the way, better do it right! Are there any kits available with all the bits I need to do the full carb rebuild?

 

Your best bet is XJ4Ever. Click on the logo in the top-right corner.

 

Started checking valves today, but only had half an hour in the morning so I only checked #1 intake and... couldnt even fit a 0.10mm. Looks like they will all be bad.
More info later today..

 

Ok, so I just got out 3 shims and none hás any number on either side.
Bummer, how can I know what is the replacement shims?

 

Shim size is based on thickness. 285 means 2.85 mm. so, you can find cheap calipers or a micrometer at a local home improvement or mechanics shop and simply measure them. Once you know your current shim sizes and gaps, you'll know what sizes you'll need to bring them back into spec.

 

Yes I will do that, it seems someone sanded most of the shims. Should I trust those? I only found one with numbers printed (y255).

I do have another bike (incomplete) I could go get some shims, but how do I take them out?
If I leave just the bucket can I easily later on insert a new shim? Will it hurt the bucket or the crankshaft?

Lots of doubts!

 

Don't rush. Wait for shims. Running it without them, or even turning it over manually without shims is bad!

 

Micrometer, measure what you have. If you don't have one I would think a local machine shop could measure them for you.

 

Yep. Every time I go out to the garage and pick up a screwdriver.

To make valve shims easier for me I put together a small kit with everything I need. I have the printed instructions from this forum, the valve shim tool, two spare shims I bought at a dealer, some plastic tweezers, etc. I flip over a 5-gallon bucket, take seat, and take all my measurements. If I can swap shims, I use the spares as placeholders so that every bucket has a shim. Once I swap around what I can, I reach out to hogfiddles for the shim pool or grab a new shim at a dealer.

Do it a couple of times and it starts to become almost zen-like.

 

Since I have another engine lying around, I could eventually use the compatible shims of that engine. That's why I asked if I could remove them and leave the bucket empty. Inserting a coin on the bucket just for the purpose of retrieving all the shims from the engine that is not working would be acceptable or plainly stupid?

 

Just bought this micrometer, it i analog but seems very good, a Mitutoyo.
Will measure as soon as possible all shims to know wich ones to order...

Best,

Sergio

 

Here are my results, only two shims were not sanded:

Shim measures:

Cilindro 1
Ex - 0.0095" = 2.41mm
In - 0,0985 = 2.5mm

Cilindro 2
Ex - 0.0102" = 2.59mm
In - 0.097" = 2.46mm

Cilindro 3
Ex - 0,01" = 2.54mm y255
In - 0,01" = 2.54mm

Cilindro 4
Ex - 0,0955" = 2.42mm y245
In - 0.0985 = 2.50mm

Valve measures:

Cilindro 1
Ex - 0.14mm
In - 0.08mm

Cilindro 2
Ex - 0.22mm
In - 0.90mm

Cilindro 3
Ex - 0.20mm
In - 0.10mm

Cilindro 4
Ex - 0.13mm
In - 0.08mm

Now, looks like I need a lot of new shims, to know the right measure I just have make math, right?

Thanks

 

First time I did mine, I think I replaced 7 of the 8 shims.

 

or more sand paper