need some advice on starting problem

i just bought this bike. it ran when i bought it..just had a little backfiring above 4500 rpm, but the guy told me the bike sat for 2 years with gas in it, he just drained it and fired up the bike...the motor would rev up to 8k without a hiccup when it was in neutral. i got the bike home, it starts stalling out, and now today it started and if you tried to turn the throttle it wouldnt increase rpms even if opened all the way (WOT).. then it would stall...i took the carbs off cleaned them and put them back together and tried to fire it and now it wont even start..its not getting spark on any of the 4 cylinders

 

First off: What bike are you talking about 400/550/650/750/900/1100. Seca/Maxim?

Second: Has the fuse block been replaced? This is known problem with all the XJ series bikes, and a major cause of electrial problems.

Third: How did you check for spark? If you cranked the engine without all 4 wires being grounded. It is possible that you may have damaged the TCI.

It is also possible that you may have knocked the safety curcuit relay loose. Mounted under the tank right above the area of the carbs.

Ghost

 

Did you set the float levels properly? Status of battery?

 

the bike is a 750 maxim, the battery was fully charged brand new actually its started on it the day before...the fuel is getting into the cylinders because the plugs have gas on them. i took out one spark plug at a time and grounded the plug to the motor and saw no spark, im a mechanic for a living just never tackled a motorcycle, kinda figured it was the same principles..the fuse block is non-existent it just has all the wires tied together...

 

im pretty sure the tic is bad, i took the cover off and there was alot of corrosion, is there a replaceable unit that can be used? or do i need to scour ebay and junk yards for one

 

You are aware that the bike has a whole slew of safety features that can cause a "no spark" if even one of them fails?

As in, sidestand switch, neutral switch, sidestand relay, clutch switch and the safety relay itself, not to mention the big OFF/RUN/OFF knob on the bar.

Diagnose, don't jump to possibly expensive conclusions.

 

is there a way to disconnect the safety features to diagnose them one by one?

 

http://www.xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=27543.html

No fuse box?? What the?

 

yea the wires are all just twisted together and wrapped in electrical tape, ive seen the bike run with the set-up and i know that isnt the issue, guy i bought it from said he did it 10 years ago and its been fine

so im assuming i just disconnect the relays and all is well

ok i unhooked the kickstand relay and no success, i unhook the ignition realy and it wont start

 

Okay now this is NOT fine. Just because tue guy before you did it doesn't mean it is safe or effective. These bikes are known to have electrical problems in and around the fuse box. The appropriate fix is to upgrade to blade fuses or replace with in-line glass tube ones at a minimum. Those fuses are there in case something shorts or becomes faulty to protect expensive and volatile components from damage. They are the first line of defense and always the first item to check.

Order a new blade style fuse box FIRST. Len (user id Chacal) carries them. Install that first to save yourself a ton of headache and drastically increase the safety factor of your electrical system. Taped up in a rats nest is NOT safe or reliable.

 

ok but that doesnt even solve why the bike turns over but isnt getting spark...i plan on upgrading to the blade fuse box, on the next pay check...but for right now i need the bike up and running so i can atleast get it tagged (i have 30 days to tag it due to not having anyhwere to store it for the time being)

 

ok after doing some diagnosing...im not getting 12v to the tci im only getting 10.5 volts, where could the voltage drop be taking place?

 

ok after even more diagnosing...all of the wires that should go into a fuse block, arent getting 12v either..only about 10.5, what on earth could be causing that much of a voltage drop

 

OK. So just what is the state of your battery? Age? Load tested?

 

battery is brand new..

 

The battery may be new but that does not mean its working properly. Put your volt meter on the battery and crank it over and see what the voltage is,

MN

 

voltage drops to about 9.5 volts

 

i would guess the battery is good, im going back to thinking its the tci..

 

well this morning for shits and giggles, i tried to start the bike, it fired up for about 15 seconds and it died...so im assuming at this point i have a faulty tci

 

If it was a faulty TCI it probably wouldn't run at all.

If the Alternator Brushes are shot, ... the Bike runs, ... "Off the top of the Battery" ... until there's not enough juice to keep it going.

You need:

+14.2 -to- +14.5VDC at the Positive Terminal of the Battery with the Bike making 2,000 rpm's (and above).

If you aren't making at least that much, ... the Battery loses its power to run the system.

The Brushes need to be 10mm long or more.
10mm and below = Replace.

 

well, i have a trickle charger attached to the battery for which i have been keeping it fully charged..the bike wouldnt start off of a full battery, and today is the first day it has even shown life and it was barely showing it sounded like only 2 cylinders fired off.. the battery is good i took it to a local auto store and had them load test it and it passed..im going to be ordering a replacment hyperpak or ignitech tci are they good brands to go with or should i track down and trust a stock unit?

 

Where are you located? See if someone else near you has a working TCI they can test in your bike (or test yours in theirs) to confirm that diagnosis before you shell out the money on a new one. A TCI used can be $50-100, a new one can be far more expensive.

On that note put your bike and location info on your profile and in your signature. It makes it easier for us to help diagnose and support your questions and inquiries.

 

around kansas city missouri, usa....if nobody has one i can borrow for about an hour i will just purchase one..what do people think i should do..

used stock one runs about $100
hyperpak (aftermarket upgrade) $200
ignitech (aftermarket) $250

i dont mind spending the money if its worth the price

 

Something's not adding up here... :roll:

Before dropping all that money on an ignition module REPLACE YOUR FUSE BOX FIRST!

One reason the PO could have done that was that the fuse holders broke or weren't making contact. Another possibility is that the FUSE KEPT BLOWING!!!

I don't think you can trust that PO any further than you can throw him. Twisting wires together is not the way to fix this problem. Bypassing a critical electrical safety component screams all kinds of stupid. All you need is one shorted wire and you're going to CATCH SOMETHING ON FIRE, or BLOW UP YOUR "NEW" BATTERY! Heck, burning up a $250 plastic box may be the least of your worries.

 

In order for the ignition system to work properly you need at least 10.5 volts plus at start up and your alternator better be putting out over 13.5 volts to 14.5 at 2000 rpm.
You don't have enough volts for the TCI to work properly. The battery is cooked from using the wrong charger and I would bet your alternator brushes are smoked also.
You need a service manual and go through all of this stuff . Guessing will cost you more in the long run.

MN

 

can i ask how you think the battery is cooked...its a 1 amp charger that goes into float mode once the battery is charged...i saw the bike run as it was with the fuse box gone and wires twisted together, the PO told me it was like that for 10 years...and well that shouldnt stop it from starting now...when all i did was load it on a trailer and tow it 40 miles home..there isnt anyway to test the alternator without it running...i personaly rode the bike before i bought it i got it up to about 60 mph and it cut out just a little above 4500 rpm i figured it was a dirty carb frm it sitting..i unloaded it from the trailer and it started right up i rode it the half mile into the barn on the back of my property, go out the next day it starts but when you twist the throttle it would not go over 2500 rpm even at WOT then it would die...now it just wont start

 

Dude, POs can say ANYTHING. Maybe it was like that for 10 years, maybe 10 minutes, there's no way for you to know, and in the end, it doesn't matter.

Maybe you shorted a wire loading/unloading from the trailer, and now, instead of popping a fuse, giving you some indication of what is wrong without frying something, you're almost certain to fry something and keep frying it.

If you want to make your 30 day deadline (and I don't quite understand why, can't you just title it now and register when it's ready?) you NEED to be methodical, and the FIRST step is a fuse box. Even an original would suffice, at least when it fails you'd pull your hair out, but nothing would get fried.

And batteries can get cooked if you deep discharge them. If your charging system isn't performing up to spec, you'll run off the battery until it dies...keep doing that and it'll stay. dead.

 

Do you still have no spark on all cylinders?

 

well..originally it was going to my apartment but my parents are letting me store it at the barn until i get it running so now i will have more time to fix it..i need to order my fuse box i already knew that and i guess i will order it and the petcock first yes i recently discovered the petcock leaks a tiny bit when its supposed to be shut off, but the oil doesnt smell like gas so i think im ok

and no im not getting spark on all 4 cylinders

 

Motor cycle batteries are borderline anyway. They only last one or two seasons at best. I've only had one battery last more than three years. So don't trust that battery even if it was new. Besides if your meter is right that means even if you had the charger on it just prior to your test proves its no good. 9.5 volts is not enough power to run the ignition.
Have a battery store test the battery by putting a load on it. If it is any good it should pass the test.
If you are suspecting the carbs are dirty you should pull them and give them the " Church of Clean" once over before doing anything else. If the carbs are right that will help to get it one more step to running.
When you do attempt to start it up again you'll need to have your meter hooked up to the battery to see what happens to the voltage. It should start charging the battery as soon as the RPM s come up. If it doesn't that's way the bike won't rev because your TCI does not have enough power to work correctly. The TCI can have issues with broken soldier joints and such. If you think it's in need of an over haul, you can send it to Robert. If you PM him see if he is still rebuilding those.
In the mean time you really need to get a manual so you can read and maybe understand how all this works.
If the PO bypassed the fuse box and other short cut repairs , you better check the valve clearances while your at it. Tight valves will not let the engine run right either.

 

I am hesitant to accept that people are still saying a new battery that load tests fine and is kept on a 1 amp float charger is bad. That sounds awfully unlikely.

However, out of curiousity--as a trouble shooting step, couldn't one just put jumper cables from a car battery to whatever battery you have (car turned off) and try starting the bike off the car? Then, no matter what shape the battery is in, it should start off the PLENTY of CCA car battery?

TCI problems are kind of mysterious, but I'd guess it's possible from your symptoms. However, the TCI is a pretty rare failure on these bikes. It seems that's what people want to point to when nothing else makes sense to them, because its symptom list isn't clear and their symptoms aren't clear. That being said, yours does look corroded inside, so it's not impossible. However, these TCI's WILL give you problems if they don't get full voltage.

If you're not getting spark on all 4, and you think only two are hitting, did you consider coils? You weren't getting spark at all, and then you kind of got it on two...

Also, considering the state of your fuse box, I wonder... The way you'll find out where the voltage drop is, is by following the electrical system through with an ohm-meter and looking for resistance. The manual (and people here as a temporary substitute, but you really want a manual for this job) will list resistance numbers for the various components. This will also show you if you fried a wire by not having a fuse box.

Do you have an inline fuel filter? That would let you see if gas is flowing freely to the carbs, since you can't really just pop your drain screws out to check I imagine (those are always rusted shut on these bikes and take some work--mine are now replaced with stainless hex-head). Is your tank at all rusty? Are you sure? There could very well be sediment in the bottom of your tank causing these problems. I know you said your spark plugs were wet at least once (and so likely flooded that time... so how many other times is that complicating troubleshooting?), but are you checking to make sure they stay that way?

 

Fintip's last comment brings up another thought. Even if you believe the plugs to be good, try new ones. I had a hell of a time getting spark with the plugs that came with my bike and as soon as I put new ones in it was like night and day.

Remember this: whatever troubleshooting that you do that also falls under regular maintenance is going to be worth it even if it doesn't solve the immediate problem. if you do all the maintenance now you'll have a large initial investment but you will also have the knowledge that everything WAS done as well as a date. It's one thing to replace one part and get a mile up the road when the bike dies on you, so making the initial investment in expendable parts now (such as a fuel filter, spark plugs, fuses or installing a proper fuse box) is worth it so you do not get stranded.

 

i understand this 100%, the spark plugs were brand new....i bought this bike from the original owner, or atleast im assuming its the original owner because the issue date on the title was 1985...i called the previous owner and he is shocked the bike is acting the way it is and offered to help pay for the repair costs...he said the fuse box corroded in the later part of the 90's he told me that he went to yamaha to get it replaced and they just took it out and put inline fuses in..and he removed those because one of them got shorted when he removed the seat and was putting it back on got stuck...so he just twisted the wires and tucked them down inside the air box area..said he had all regular maintence performed at ayamaha dealer except the last oil change from when he pulled it out of the shed he did it himself because he didnt have the money for yamaha to get it back up to snuff...

i cleaned the carb all the screws are free and i used anti sieze on the drain screws...i used a broom bristle to clean the passage in the carb and then used carb cleaner to squirt through afterwards..

the fuse box will be getting ordered today, as well as the replacment petcock because the one i have does leak. i have already taken the tank off and cleaned it using some seafoam, the tank shines on the inside. ill take the battery to an auto parts store and have them test it...ill pm the guy to see if he is still doing work on the tci, i didnt pay much for the bike so dropping a grand into it wouldnt kill me, ive already put new front brakes on and rear shoes, flushed the brake fluid, changed the shaft oil, replaced all the bulbs wether they needed it or not. next is getting it back running and tires

 

Go get a can of CRC Contact Cleaner.

Spray every single Connection and Terminal having anything at all to do with Ignition.

The stuff dissolves contamination and evaporates.

Do the Contacts, Quick Connects and Switches.
Safety Circuit related everything's.
Handlebar Control Switches and BOTH Male and Female Plug-in to the TCI.

Pull the Left Crank Cover.
Spray the Pick-ups.
Make sure the Wire from the Pick-ups to the TCI is not pinched, bent, of shorted in any way.
Make sure he Ign. Rotor isn't loose.

Good luck.

Find a TEST TCI.

If you have a Orig Fuse Panel, ... Bypass the IGN Circuit. Cut the Wires to the IGN Circuit and splice-in an Inline Fuse. The Fuse Panel might be the problem.

 

One of the most important bits of advice I ever wrote for this form is back in 2006!

Fuse Panel Time Bomb.
http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=2 ... +bomb.html

 

I agree with Fintip , but before you hook up a car battery get your fuses back into play so if the unfortunate would happen you won't BBQ your wire harness. Like he said the transistors need as much power as possible to work.
Could be an indicator the TCI needs to get overhauled.

 

i just ordered the fuse block from chacal, along with the fuel petcock so it should be here in a few days, then we will dive back into this ordeal

 

Sounds great!

By the way I know you have heard this before, but I wanted to take a moment to say that this bike will be an awesome bike once you get it back on the road. They are extremely reliable and hard to kill once you get them into a normal maintenance routine. Mine has taken me 10k miles in the last year and a half, and it is pulling like it is ready to handle another 100k easily.

You made a good purchase, and once you get the bugs worked out you'll be picking the bugs out of your teeth because you won't stop smiling once you get on the road and play with the power band.

 

yea, i owned a newer yamaha r1 it was fun but i enjoy classic vehicles..i drive a 68 camaro as a daily driver and when the weather gets bad i have a 72 4x4 truck that i drive...i love the classics they were just built right back then

 

If you run a tight ship and do the maintenance on schedule; you get rewarded with some quality ride-time, ... for sure.

Fuse Panel
Steering Bearings
Fork Springs and Seals
Brakes, Lines, MC and Caliper Seals
Valves
Carbs

Once you have that list done and under control; you got a bike that won't be breaking-down on you.

 

the fuse box is on it way. the steering bearings are well lubed because it requires zero effort to move that tire and there in no looseness..fork springs and seal were serviced by yamaha last year have a receipt. i replaced the front brake line already replaced it with a braided stainless steel hose i made it at work. the brake pads have been changed and the calipers werent leaking.. the valves im reading up on now..and the carbs i took apart and made them real clean.

i love older vehicles and im a maintenance freak. i even change my light bulbs after a year of use...

 

ok got the fuse panel installed, took the battery it tested good.. i unhooked the black / white stripped wire that is for the kickstand and such...and no luck it still wont even come to life

 

tricked, are you getting spark on any of the cylinders? I have read back thru this thread, and you keep saying "not getting spark on all 4". If you are getting some spark, then check coil resistances. If you are not gettng any spark, that's another thing. In your last post, you unhooked a black/white wire.

Try this...under the side cover on the left side of the bike, beside the TCI lives a safety relay. My 750 was giving the same problem, which is why I got it so cheap. Unplug the relay and see if you get spark back.

 

no spark at all... the black/white stripe wire is the wire that goes from that relay into the tci so unhooking directly from the tci should bypass all safety items

 

Since you have now replaced the fuse block. Have you gone back through checking the voltage readings?

Also If the plugs were fouled out at one time. They may not necessarily be good any more. Trying to start the bike on a set of fouled plugs may have damaged the plugs. The spark energy has to go some where, or something has to give. Try another set of plugs.

If the bike fired up after sitting over night. It is highly unlikely that the TCI
is at fault

Disconnecting the Black/white tracer wire from the side stand relay will not eliminate the safety curcuit. But is does elminate a necessary signal for the TCI to work properly. Hint!!

Ghost

 

ok bought new plugs, reconnected the tci black white tracer wire, unhooked the sidestand relay..still same problem

 

nobody has any ideas?

 

If you want to troubleshoot the "safety" circuit, locate and unplug the "safety" (cutoff) relay; doing so will effectively bypass the whole safety system and help eliminate that as a cause.

The sidestand relay and the safety relay are different.

 

where would i find this relay...everything i can find just says sidestand relay by the tci box

 

Look it up here; and double-check by verifying the wire colors: http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=27543.html

I believe on your bike the safety relay is under the gas tank; but don't trust my memory, look it up and verify.