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new battery or something more serious

Discussion in 'XJ Technical Chat' started by pauldale999, Apr 21, 2019.

  1. pauldale999

    pauldale999 Active Member

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    Hi Timbox
    Just posted, and read your thread after. The charging system is/was working ok, and the battery charges up fully, and really turns the motor over well. It is a gel battery. I am currently recharging, (read latest thread!), and shall check spark again when dark enough outside, and report back. As I have reiterated, this has happened before in the past.
     
  2. Simmy

    Simmy Well-Known Member

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    try a boost from your car battery and fresh plugs.
    Sometimes the battery will turn the motor over but have nothing left for the ignition.
     
  3. XJ550H

    XJ550H Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    any fuel that gets past the cylinders un burnt will cause a back fire.
    starter cylinders?

    sounds like your carbs are flooding.
    float valve assembly sticking open.

    are all your spark plugs getting wet?

    if you have spark on 1 you should have spark on 4.
    ohm out your sparkplug caps see if they are in spec.

    yamaha coils give a weak spark

    so you may have a bad sparkplug cap or the wire has failed on 4
     
  4. pauldale999

    pauldale999 Active Member

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    XJ550: In answer to your thread: Yes, all my plugs are wet. Just been down and checked the spark across all 4 plugs, with plugs out of cylinder attached to coil suppressor caps, now battery recharged, and there is a pulsing bright, but weakish (see your thread above) spark twice, on every turn over of the engine, using turn on button to turn the motor over. This is the case for all four spark plugs. So no sparking issue is at fault, I don't think.
    However, when I removed the spark plugs initially to do this test, everyone was wet-through with fuel, and I hadn't touched the machine for four hours?!
    Tried to start again, at first, without fuel enrichment circuit on - Nothing. Tried with fuel enrichment circuit on - still nothing. Was frequently trying different positions on the turn screw at back of carbs, to try and get something, but still nothing.
    I've deduced that the fuel is somehow not the right mixture, so can't ignite and is flooding the cylinder somehow, and perhaps that's why it won't start?
    Stuck float? I've tried knocking with a rubber mallet, on each carb body, does draining the carb cylinders have a beneficial effect whilst knocking on the carb cylinders afterwards?
    Open to any other analysis, if anyone has had this issue.....?
    Regards.
     
  5. XJ550H

    XJ550H Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    if you backed the idle (throttle stop )screw out to far this would close the butterflies and not let as much air through the carbs. all carbs which would cut down on air flow giving you a rich mixture making for a hard start.

    check oil level see if fuel has flooded the oil . if you have clear hose or fuel filter and float valves are not closing fuel line will go empty.
    if spark plugs are all carboned up and or wet it will be a hard start.

    I would start by removing carbs and bench syncing them. then I would check for leaks out of bike by hooking a fuel supply to carbs to see if there is any leaks or overflow..
    check fuel levels.

    it sounds like you have spark , fuel, so air flow may be the issue which would be corrected with the bench sync
     
  6. pauldale999

    pauldale999 Active Member

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    Just tried to start again, after recharging overnight, turned up screw, slight fire.....then nothing, nothing.....
    Decided to take your advice xj and take carbs off and rebench-sync.
    When I took carbs, off and looked at butterflies, all four were CLOSED SHUT TIGHT, and I thought I had opened them up?!
    I only bench-synced about 4 months ago, when got new manifold boots, but I had to turn the screw 3 full times before the butterflies opened (just now)
    I have to turn the screw OUT, to maintain a 1050-1100 idle, otherwise it's at 13 - 1400 and it is a very fine line between 1050-1100 idle, and it just cutting out through lack of air.
    Shall bench-sync again, reinstall, and try to start again. It must be this that is the issue(?)
    Report back when I have done all this.

    Regards.
     
  7. Timbox

    Timbox Well-Known Member

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  8. pauldale999

    pauldale999 Active Member

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    Just had the carbs off, re bench sync. Each butterfly one thickness of a paperclip wire, just gripping.
    Reinstalled, battery charged up fully - press starter, choke on, choke off, still nothing, just turns over and over.....
    What can this be? Did not fire once.

    Regards.
     
  9. pauldale999

    pauldale999 Active Member

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    Would the couple of large backfires, earlier have done anything to the mixture settings?
     
  10. pauldale999

    pauldale999 Active Member

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    Will check battery for outage, when get home again tonight (when fully recharged) and whilst turning over motor.
    It could well be this 5-6 years old battery has weakened with all the recharges I've done over the past year, with the electrical charging issues I've had?
    Can't think of anything else unless I've done something wrong with the bench sync?
    Regards.
     
  11. kerriskandiesinc

    kerriskandiesinc Active Member

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    Are the plugs wet after all that starter motor turning?....if so fuel is good, spark....may be weak.....if plugs are not wet then possibly two problems

    if plugs are wet no matter HOW good you think your battery may be....jump it from your car/truck.....just to get an initial fire.....again, 3 second bursts on button....then wait, repeat as often as you need to......you could also remove plugs, one at a time, and using your car battery check to see how 'fat' the spark is ?...do this for all 4?
     
  12. pauldale999

    pauldale999 Active Member

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    Got back from work tonight.

    Charger said 14.3v charged up. Voltmeter said battery was 13.4v. Perhaps the battery is only capable of charging up to this amount now?
    Cannot jump start the bike as got no car or van, no slope, and too heavy for me to push to bump start.
    Instead, I rocked the machine, whilst in gear with clutch in and out, to turn the motor over a few times.
    Then tried the push start button, with choke on. Fired about 4 times then nothing again.
    Tried this about 6 times, 3-6 second bursts, with 1 minute intervals, Nothing.
    Tried opening up the butterflies a bit for more air, still nothing.
    Choke on, nothing, choke off, nothing. Alternate throttle open a bit, then gradually close off knob, still nothing.
    Took plugs off, one at a time - all plugs wet with fuel. Dried them, put them back in and tried to start again, not a thing.
    Took each one out individually and tested for spark - each one has what I have experienced in the past to be enough of a spark to start the machine(?)
    I don't know how to analyse how 'fat' a spark is, but it was very frequent and bright as the motor turned over, on EVERY plug.
    Machine is back on charge now overnight, so any other advice greatly appreciated. A new battery? Why is it not igniting?

    Thank you for all your input so far...
    Regards.
     
  13. XJ550H

    XJ550H Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    do a voltage drop test.
    meter on battery see what voltage drops to when you press starter button.
    if it goes below 10 volts your battery is done
    tci stops firing at just under 10 volts and will sometimes fire when starter button is released
     
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  14. kerriskandiesinc

    kerriskandiesinc Active Member

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    Agreed....XJ's can be VERY particular...unless hot, to battery voltage, even when 'new' these things....though immensely 'un-burstable' had quite weak electrical systems ....

    If you can borrow a van/car/truck, I'll bet she'll start......
     
  15. Timbox

    Timbox Well-Known Member

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    No one has played around with the timing one the bike right? If you take the plugs out and can see that on TDC or close to it there is spark on the compression stroke. I think he said in the beginning that the bike would run but would only run for a while. Just want to make sure we are not missing something simple. As was stated many times, these bikes do have weak electrical systems have to have great batteries. I normally run a 220 CCA in mine.
     
  16. pauldale999

    pauldale999 Active Member

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    No-one has played around with timing.
    Just been down to machine after charging overnight. Charger was reading charged up to 14.4v. Pressed start button, (without FEC on) and an almighty rat-a-tat explosion as engine immediately burst into life, without silencers on! Turned off quickly! Next door neighbour stuck their head out the bedroom window and said 'Did I just hear it start?' LOL!
    I had turned the screw in considerably last night in an attempt to add air to the mixture by opening up the butterflies.
    Turned the knob down a revolution, and tried again (without choke on again)....
    Started again. Turned off quickly.
    Turned down adjustment some more, started again. (too high revs still)
    Turned down a little more, pressed button and would not start.
    Decided to fit repaired-holes silencers, and try again....(I have been afraid of fitting them, in case of backfire again, when it blows all the repairs out!)
    Will not start again now. Put voltmeter across battery whilst pressing starter and reads 10.17v. Without pressing starter reads 12.13v.
    Tried with choke on again, no luck. Perhaps those couple of 'starts' without choke on, used up all residual fuel in cylinders, and can't start cos of no choke on?
    OR, the battery, with the turning over, has drained enough for it not to produce enough spark again? New battery?
    I shall charge up again to what it can, try and start again and report back.....

    Any deductions from this..?

    Regards, and
    A Happy New Year!
     
  17. pauldale999

    pauldale999 Active Member

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    It started again, after charging for only 15 minutes.
    Turned knob out some more and let it idle till op. temp. and set to 1100, let run for 10 minutes.
    Turned off for 5 mins. started again after a few turns.
    Sending for new gel battery, with at least 220 CCA. (this one has served me for 6+ years!)
    I still have to check if it will start after going cold (with battery charged up)
    Will report back if anymore problems.

    Thank you all, for all your help!
    Very appreciated.

    Dale Grantham
     
  18. kerriskandiesinc

    kerriskandiesinc Active Member

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    Probably battery....when my XJ's are/were cold.....even back in the late 80's when CONSIDERABLY newer, they were sometimes very difficult to a first start....not saying that 7/10 they WON't start when cold...they should, but add in cold/moisture, weak battery......38 year old wiring..perhaps ( likely) you have already fouled the plugs with constant starter turning...now that notoriously weak XJ spark is....well, just TOO weak for that initial under compression fire.......honestly, sometimes I've wondered if these things dont need glow plugs..lol, they can certainly act like diesels.......when cold !!

    I also tried GPz900R coils on mine, and silicone leads......but can't say that make a huge difference......

    ( OK.......and dont laff.....but back in about 1987 I was temporarily between homes, me and the ex were living with my old dad for a while...I was new to couriering, XJ was notoriously tricky in a ( wet, cold) UK Winter.....my old dad would sometimes go outside in his jammies ( no garage) and use my ex's hair dryer on the plugs, coil area..........guess what......she almost ALWAYS bloody started, after that!!! < which probably means they are susceptible to ANY moisture around the plugs, coil, HT lead area....even though I would often soak those areas in WD40...the bloody hair dryer trick worked 99/100 times!! )
     
  19. pauldale999

    pauldale999 Active Member

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    LOL kerrisk, but not lol!

    On very cold mornings when it wouldn't start (my bike is kept in concertina-type, fold over framed canvas cover) I have often resorted to removing my plugs, and putting them in an Halogen oven, for 10 mins till they're burning hot to hold, reinserting them, and start first time! And the hairdryer! ~And yes, the WD40.
    You're right about the playing up when it's very damp also.
    I have been told by people on the site, that you must always initial start with the choke (Sorry, Fuel Enrichment Circuit)! from cold though, and as long as your mixture/bench sync is ok, it will start more easily?
    Just sent for a battery with 12V, 14aH, and a 320 CCA.
    That should do the trick.....

    Regards.
     
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  20. kerriskandiesinc

    kerriskandiesinc Active Member

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    Just out of interest what battery did you get??

    Ahh, a Notts lad, used to do the Nottingham Goose fair motorcycle rally...back in the late 70's, early 80's....lost the keys to my BRAND new 1979 GS750 Suzy there once...and NOT wanting to hotwire it...my mate rode back to Manc....spare keys then back to the Rally site !!
     

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