New Rings & lots of Smoke??

OK, here's where I'm at. I'm getting alot of smoke from my pipes. I did just put on new piston rings. I'm thinking that the second rings might be in upside down they weren't marked top or bottom and, the bevel is so slight that I couldn't tell for sure :roll: . With a new set of rings, should I be getting much smoke as the rings seat themselves? And what are the chances of something really bad happining if left in too long? Further, if I tear it back down again, do I need to buy a complete new set of rings or, just the 2nd rings that I might have installed wrong? The rings only have 65 miles on them right now. Hmmmmm? It is really embarrasing to have so much smoke after a fresh re-build!

Thanks for any help
Ken

 

If they really are in upside down, with that few miles unless you've been hammering the thing you can simply reinstall them correctly.

Are they gapped and staggered correctly?

Lots of smoke ain't good except for the first mile or two, ten at the most (while the oily mess you made burns off.)

 

You should be able to reuse the rings. I the rings were not marked then it should not matter which side is facing up. Did you hone the cylinders before installing the new rings? And check the ring end gap? How is the condition of the cylinder head and valve stem seals?

 

Can you do a compression test & post up the numbers?

 

Howdy all. Well to start with:

Did cylinder hone
Did end gap
Did valve seal replacement
Did stagger all end gaps on pistons

Compression test

#1 Dry 125 Wet 130
#2 Dry 135 Wet 142
#3 Dry 132 Wet 140
#4 Dry 132 Wet 134

I know that these numbers look dismal. I called the place that I purchased the rings at to inquire just why these numbers were so low. The guy ask me how many miles do the new rings have on them. At the time there were only 17 miles. He ensured me that after the rings got seated (200 miles) the numbers should rise. He aslo said that if I had a ring in upside down then I would start to smoke, which I am. When I initialy installed the rings I broke one of the #2 rings and, had to order a new one. The new one came with the #1000 stamped onto the top of the ring. None of the previous rings had any numbers on them to give me a clue at to their proper orientation. When I disasemble my engine to figure out this problem, how will I be able to tell which is top and bottom? The last time i had the rings in my hands, I looked at them very closely checking for a bevel on the outside edge. I stood them on edge on a piece of glass looking for a lean. one way or another. I installed them as I thought I saw them. I must have gotten something wrong.

1. How will I be able to tell for sure which side is up for certian?

2. Will I need to re-hone the cylinders? (I'm assuming so but, I really don't know)

3. Anything else while I'm in there?


Thanks for all the help
Ken

 

You have to "Break-In" the New Rings.

You should do some Low-revs + No Load "Seating" of the New Rings.
It could take 150 Miles or more before the Rings and Cylinders get Broken-In and the Oil Consumption issue ceases.

They "Bed-In" faster with lighter oils.
But, lighter Oils would mean frequent Top-ups.

The Oil use should diminish and the PSI's climb after some Breaking-In.

If not ... you may have cracked a ring doing the job.

Bottom Line: Normal >> But, not permanent.

 

The manual does say put rings with serial number upwards, well on the new set of genuine Yam' rings there was no number, there was a small mark on the #2 rings which I put upwards, but it can't be that important or it would be easier to detect, wouldn't it.
What work did you do with the valves, lapped, re-cut seats, new guides?

 

I feel a bit better about the rings,......for now. Thanks Rick. I'll change the oil and put a lighter oil in, I'm running 20-50w now. I did lap my valves myself. Being a first time newb I ground them with the compound for about 3 minutes each shifting 1/4 every 45 seconds or so, hope I at least did that right. When I called the Total Seal place about the dismal compression, I asked about the number on the ring that they sent to replace the broken one with. The guy there assured me that the number stamped on the top of the ring did indicate the top side of the ring. Still don't know why the others didn't have that small clue!! I had to get the rings at Total Seal. Yamaha doesn't make them anymore for the XJ700N & no one else picked them up as an after market part. Total Seal had to look up in their book of rings to ensure that they had some that would work. I also had to send them my pistons as well so, they could open up the second groove on the pistons to accept their rings. Because I didn't have any other option, I sent them my pistons so they could do the work. When I got the rings and my pistons back I still needed to file the end gap for a proper fit for the cylinders.

BTW Thanks again wiz. I took the bike out for a small 20 mile jaunt & couldn't have been happier with the throttle response. Other than the smoke causing me to worry, I at least know that my carbs are just about where I want them!

Thanks all! I'll keep ya posted if I still continue to smoke as bad as I am now. I was already thinking about a tear down for this weekend but, I might just postpone that for a few more days.

Cheers
Ken

 

Hope this will help you sleep better :wink:




grz Thijs

 

Hey thanks Thijs, however, three of the rings that wrere sent to me had no markings on them at all. I had to depend on a visual inspection of the edge of the rings to distinguish the top from the bottom. As with anything that is not clearly marked, I'm wondering if I might have mistaken one or more when installing them. It would explain the smoke. I'm going to wait till I get at least 200 miles more on the clock before I start looking at the smoke more critically and, then do another compression test to decide if I need to break it all back down again and take my rings to a pro to tell me which side is truely the "up" side. I'll keep this thread posted as to my findings here in the next day or so.

Thanks again all!
Ken

 

I am concerned that they had to mess with your pistons to make the rings fit & you had to file the ends, sounds like they were oversize rings.
Am I right in thinking that only the #2 ring has any orientation?
I edited my erlier post BTW marks were up not down.
I did get good comp' readings straight away, don't know what it will run like though, it's still in a trillion bits.

 

Hey Wiz, I was sort of forced to go the way that I did with, sending the pistons down to them. They only had to open up the 2nd ring groove just a hair's breath. No matter where I looked, I couldn't find any rings. When I was steered into Total Seal I jumped at the chance at getting a good new set. The only groove that needed to be monkeyed with on the pistons was the 2nd groove. Seems like that all of the other XJ's had an ample supply of rings or, someone else picked them up as an after market item. The 85' XJ700N was left out in the cold. The only way I'm ever going to find a "proper" set is to run across a NOS set on eBay and, believe me I've been watching without seeing a single set to be had. As far as being over sized rings, I don't really think that's what they were. I did have to file them to get the right end gap but, I thought that everyone had to do that. But what do I know, I've never done any of this before so, it was all new to me.

I've been watching your 900 build, you got skills dood! Wish that I was as certian as you with your work. I'm sure that it all comes with time & practice.

Thanks again
Ken

 

On original 2nd rings, the outer face (which rides against the cylinder wall) has a vertically beveled face, and thus the TOP of the ring is not as wide as the BOTTOM of the ring.

Only OVERSIZE factory rings are marked with a size dimension on the top side of the 1st and 2nd rings; standard sizes are not marked.

The replacement rings may not have had a bevel, which you may wish to inquire with the manufacturer about..........although, it would be rather odd if they didn't, the bevel is what helps provide the seal, although some 1st or 2nd rings are "barrel" instead of "bevel" design rings. Original 2nd rings on your engine were of the "bevel" design.

 

Rings & things

On reading the penultimate section, Wiper Ring, it seems to say the opposite to Chacal. :?

 

Umm, maybe I'm missing something........what am I saying that is different (opposite) than what that article states?

http://www.hastingsmfg.com/ServiceTips/ ... ontrol.htm


Near the bottom of the page, the "Piston Rings" section has a fine illustration of what I am referring to........


As does almost every factory service manual in the MAINTENANCE SPECIFICATIONS/Engine/Piston Rings:/Sectional Sketch section.

 

My problem was with the use of the word taper, Len, whichever way I look up taper, it means smaller or lesser.

 

None of the above answered your question.. I think. The taper on the 2nd ring IS visible (use a magnifying glass if your eyesight is fading (like mine
Beyond that; An upside down second ring will smoke some but Not V much at all especially for the first few hundred(thousand?) miles (been there done that.. sadly)
Possiblity exists that all your rings are Crap. Not a happy thought, but unless you err forgot :new' valve seals onto 'in spec' guides/stems there are few other possibilities. G'luck