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Rattling Noise On Idle - 550 Primary Chain HI-VO

Discussion in 'XJ Technical Chat' started by Rice_Burnarr, Aug 13, 2011.

  1. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Did you change the oil yet?

    CHANGE THE OIL. 20W50 if 20W40 not available.

    Then decide if the clutch nut needs to be worried about.
     
  2. Rice_Burnarr

    Rice_Burnarr Member

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    No, not yet. No hurry either.

    The weather here is crap for the foreseeable future. Not constant rain, but constant risk of getting caught in a thunderstorm. :(
     
  3. Rice_Burnarr

    Rice_Burnarr Member

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    Got a break in the weather today so I drained the 10W-40 and put in some Castrol 4T 20W-50 cycle oil.

    Still rattles, but as expected, it's not as loud as with the 10W-40 that I drained. I'm not going to rip into anything right now. I'm thinking that I should ride while I can, and if I feel up to it, I'll pull the engine this winter and go looking for trouble.

    Thanks for all your help Fitz!! 8)
     
  4. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Did you replace the oil filter too? If not, how old is the one that's in there?

    You don't have to pull the engine to look in the clutch. Put the bike on the sidestand, you won't even lose any oil.

    If the sound goes away or nearly goes away when you pull in the clutch, it has nothing to do with the HY-VO chain; the chain is still being driven by the motor, by pulling in the clutch you "disconnect" the transmission and half the clutch.

    You are hearing transmission/clutch rattle, not the HY-VO chain itself.

    You need to check the clutch to be sure it's not trying to come apart; this happened to me and also to one of our other members with a 550/600.

    You also need to worry about keeping up on proper maintenance; don't tear apart a motor with only 10K miles on it and potentially ruin it when you won't even keep it properly maintained.

    Adjust the cam chain and get the valves in spec; double-check your carb sync.

    When was the last time you checked/adjusted the drive chain? Do you keep it lubed?

    Staying on top of proper maintenance is a whole lot less complicated than ripping apart a motor that probably has nothing really wrong with it.
     
  5. Rice_Burnarr

    Rice_Burnarr Member

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    I put in a new oil filter when I first started looking into this. I didn't change it again when I traded the 10W-40 for 20W-50, but it had maybe 30 minutes on it.

    Do you think there's any inspection I can do to the clutch to look for gross looseness of the entire assy that can be done through the oil fill hole? I can see the clutch, and I can stick a finger or screwdriver down there and I cannot rock the entire assy at all. In other words, it's not so loose that I can move it in any direction (in, out, angle, or rotate) with moderate force.

    I'm pretty much on top of my other maintenance. I'm a little behind on my valve check, but other than that I'm OK.
     
  6. Rice_Burnarr

    Rice_Burnarr Member

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    Update... I pulled the clutch cover off and believe I found the source of my idle rattle. A wise man once said that "You are hearing transmission/clutch rattle, not the HY-VO chain itself" and I believe he is a wise man indeed.

    Upon further investigation, I believe the source of my rattle is not the HY-VO chain at all, but is in fact caused by axial end play in my "primary driven gear". The primary driven gear (often referred to as the clutch "basket") must be free to rotate on the input shaft and I think the rattling noise I hear is the basket rattling around a little when it's not under load (like when it's idling in neutral). I think what I hear is the basket knocking against the limits of it's in-out (axial) travel.

    I measured the basket end play to be .013 inches. I couldn't find any specs in the shop manual, so I have no idea if that's "excessive" or "expected", but I can tell you that I looked at everything under magnification and did not find anything worn. So unless a thrust washer has completely turned to dust and disappeared, it's been like that since new:

    [​IMG]

    So... Non problem? I'm not so sure... Let me show you what else I found. While looking at everything under magnification, I noticed what appears to be cracks in the bronze bearing that the primary driven gear rotates on. Here's the back side of the gear:

    [​IMG]

    Looking closely, it appears that the bearings are cracked:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I have no idea why they cracked. There's no signs of wear. No signs of heat or abuse. Nothing. I'm even wondering if they were put in at the factory as an intentional stress fracture point like putting crack grooves in a concrete slab. I don't know if those cracks are contributing to the rattle, or were caused by the basket slapping around.

    Anyone else ever seen anything like this?

    I took a look at Chacals parts list and the bearings are not called out for independantly. On the larger bikes they used a roller bearing there and you can buy it seperately, but on the 550 it does not appear that you can buy just the bearing. You have to buy the whole primary driven gear assembly.

    Other things I determined while I was in there? My clutch boss nut was tight. The clutch disks themselves all look great, and to my complete amazement, my clutch cover gasket stayed with the cover instead of zebra striping half on the cover and half on the engine:

    [​IMG]
     
  7. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Dang.

    No, those aren't "intentional stress fractures" those bushings are cracked. How is beyond me, since you're the original owner and it hasn't been abused or crashed right? But they are definitely cracked.

    Find a low-mileage clutch on eBay. Any XJ550/600 will be the same; then use whichever hub is better with the "new" basket. I ended up with a basket from an FJ600 that got crashed with 3900 miles on the odo.

    Finding low mileage parts: when you find a clutch you might want, click on "see other items." Invariably, the seller will have a whole bunch of stuff from the same bike, and either discuss the mileage or have the instrument cluster for sale.

    Looks like you found your excessive rattle. Be sure you put the clutch back together with the tabs on the plain plates oriented correctly and the dot on the pressure plate aligned with the dot on the hub.

    You might want to take the opportunity to fit new friction plates and pressure springs, just because of age.

    How the bushings got cracked I can't even begin to fathom.
     
  8. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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    Double check this, but I'm pretty sure that Yamaha used the identical clutch on the following models, at least as far as the plates go, they used different actuation systems I think so like I said, do a little research and maybe save yourself a bundle on the parts that you need. For instance, you might find that a guy on fleabay selling his clutch for a different model(which happens to be exactly the same as yours) is selling his clutch for 10 bucks when all the clutches for your model are 50 or so....

    • FJ 600; 1984, 1985
    • FZ 600; 1986, 1987, 1988
    • FZ6 (FZS600); 2004, 2005, 2006
    • YZF 600 (R6); 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002
    • YZF R6; 2003, 2004, 2005
    • XJ 600 Seca II; 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998
    • YX 600; 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990
    • XJ 650 Maxim; 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983
    • XJ 650 Midnight; 1981
    • XJ 650 Seca / Seca Turbo; 1982, 1983
    • FZX 700; 1986, 1987
    • XJ 700 Maxim; 1985, 1986
    • FZ 750; 1985, 1986
    • XJ 750 Maxim; 1982, 1983
    • XJ 750 Seca; 1981, 1982, 1983
    • TDM 850; 1992, 1993
    • XJ 900 Seca; 1983
    FJ, FZ, FZ6, FZX, TDM, YZF (yes, the R6) & XJ's as listed all used the same clutch!!

    jeff
     
  9. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Plates, maybe.

    NOT the basket/primary driven gear ass'y.

    The part that is needed is common to all of the 550s and the 600s. It's NOT the same as the bigger bikes.
     
  10. Rice_Burnarr

    Rice_Burnarr Member

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    Yeah, I didn't really think they were intentional stress lines either. What's interesting is that the inboard bushing has a distinct deep straight line on it and that's where it cracked. When I first saw it I thought it was an oil groove. It wasn't until I got it under magnification that I started to question the "on-purpose-ness" of it.

    I cannot fathom why either. Yes, I'm the original owner. Babied since new. Never overheated. Never over-revved. Never crashed. Never stopped abruptly. Never run low on oil. Nothing.

    But wait, wait... I'm not so sure the cracks are what are causing the rattle. The bushings are still a tight tolerance fit on the input shaft and I would have never suspected there was any problem there until I pulled the basket off. Those bushings are not what establishes axial end play. In operation, those bushings never contact anything other than the shaft they run around. In other words, new bushings would NOT decrease the end play.

    So why would you think the are the cracks are CAUSING the rattle?
    Maybe the cracks were caused BY the rattle?
    Maybe they are unrelated? :?:
     
  11. Rice_Burnarr

    Rice_Burnarr Member

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    So I've been looking into the possibility that there are other Yamaha models that have pressed in bushings that I might be able to use. I haven't found a definitive replacement, but have turned up thrust washers that are used on other Yamahas.

    Here's a RD 400 that uses a thrust washer 25mm ID, 50mm OD, 2mm thick that would do a great job spacing the 550 primary driven gear so that it wouldn't have so much axial play. Kinda makes you wonder why they never included that washer on the XJ550?

    http://www.rd400.de/Dokumente/RD250_400 ... zteile.pdf

    Here's an XT 550 that uses the same splined washer (as us) between the primary driven gear and the clutch boss. The interesting thing is that it actually looks correct.

    http://digilander.libero.it/XT_550/Imag ... ofiche.PDF

    The important part to all of this is that the shaft that goes through the center of the primary driven gear is 25mm so maybe some other Yamaha with "available and replacable" bushings which has an ID of 25mm would be a suitable alternative. Maybe the one from the RD400...

    If it weren't for the oil groove in the bushing, I would just make a pair myself.
     
  12. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Why not simply find a low-mileage clutch on eBay for $10 or $20 and be done with it?

    I don't think a small amount of end-play is what caused your problem; as many times as I've had a 550 clutch apart, I've never noticed any "excessive" end play in the basket, but there is a small amount.

    Double-check the fiche, maybe your bike got assembled with a piece missing. Note that the big washer between the hub and basket will probably NOT look like the drawing; none of mine do.
     
  13. Rice_Burnarr

    Rice_Burnarr Member

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    What I find interesting about the thrust washers used on that RD400 is that they used two of them, one on each side of the primary driven gear, and each of them is 2mm (about .008 inches thick each). So, with no spec on end play, I have no basis for comparison, but it just seems odd that Yamaha used two washers each of which are about half the amount of end play that I have on my bike. They were obviously adjusting the end play to a sub-ten-thousandths level.

    I've double checked the fische and I'm not missing anything. There is not "supposed" to be a thrust washer between the basket and the ball bearing on the input shaft. The basket is supposed to butt right against the inner race of that 6305 ball bearing. And on the outboard side, the only thing that is supposed to be between the basket and the boss is the splined washer "thrust plate" 3Y1-16154-00-00. The picture in the fische is wrong, but the one in the doc for that RT550 was a better picture and it listed the same part number.
     
  14. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    So, if Yamaha was adjusting the end-play in the RD400 and you feel the need to "shim out" some of your end-play, then go for it. I can't see as to how it would hurt anything.

    But I wouldn't re-use the basket with the split bushings.
     
  15. Rice_Burnarr

    Rice_Burnarr Member

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    Ummm... Yeah... About that RD400 shim. I slipped a decimal point.

    They use a 2.0mm wide shim and I need a 0.2mm wide shim. :oops: I think the concept is still valid, but that's not the shim to use.

    I think the only thing that could go wrong would be cutting it too close and not predicting what dimensions would go which way when hot. In other words, just because I have approx 0.013 inches axial play, I don't think it would be prudent to slip a 0.012 shim in there. I was thinking maybe .005 or .007 and see what happens.

    But I don't think I'm going anywhere until I figure out what to do about the bearing.
     
  16. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Like I said, eBay.

    In my case, the bike had fallen HARD on the right side, not while moving though; I think it fell off a trailer or truck. The brake lever had punctured the clutch cover. PO (or his minion, Guy I Bought It From, henceforth referred to as GIBIF) had repaired the cover, and replaced the brake lever. Nobody ever gave much thought to the clutch itself. When the lever came through the case, it HIT the basket (left an obvious gouge.) The clutch basket itself was bent. GIBIF swore he hadn't noticed anything, like the extreme vibration as soon as you let the clutch out.

    I got an FJ600 clutch assembly off eBay for $20. Bike had 3900 miles on it when wrecked. Only used the basket, as most of the plain plates burnt blue anyway.

    $20. I was just poking on eBay yesterday; it can still be done (but be careful.) If I was in your shoes, another clutch would already be on its way.
     
  17. Rice_Burnarr

    Rice_Burnarr Member

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    Yeah, I've got stuff from GIBIF as well. I'm not sure if he's clueless or dishonest, but I too have often been less than satisfied.

    I went poking on ebay last night and there's no shortage of baskets that will fit. Cheapest I found with a cursory look was the basket only (no disks) for $30 shipped.

    But you said "be careful". Careful of what?
     
  18. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Careful of broken, worn or incorrectly-listed parts. There's at least one 650 or 750 unit right now that's listed as being for a "550/650/750" which simply isn't true.

    You should be able to do better price-wise, or for that price, you can get a whole clutch assembly.
     
  19. Rice_Burnarr

    Rice_Burnarr Member

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  20. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Yeppers; that's what the fiche says.

    Widens your search a bit...
     

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