Refuses to roll in gear with clutch in... HELP!!!!!

Ok guys,
I am stumped and I have not found any info to my issue.

First off let me start off by saying:
Valves checked and all in spec
Float levels wet set
Carbs Synced
Plugs look perfect
Thinking this was the issue I changed the following parts...
New clutch pads
New clutch cable routed most direct way possible
Rebuilt and torqued to spec IAW the manual

So my bike is completely finished, everything looks great and runs like a top. I rode it around the block and then the next day to work total about 30 miles. Sat for about 4 days due to weather and school. I take it out to let the girlfriend ride it, it starts just fine, let the girlfriend get on it, she kicks it into 1st and it dies and lerches forward a bit. I get on and try it, same thing. I try to push the bike in every gear and it refuses to roll unless I put a lot of force behind it. This is for both forward and back. In neutral it is just fine but in any gear is is not.

So thinking it was the clutch or the cable was stretching and not fully disengaging the plates were replaced along with the cable, new springs and new motorcycle Yamalube oil. Still nothing, Cable is adjusted properly and all torqs on the bolts were to spec. I am at a loss, I have checked all the gears and it binds in all gears. I can push it with a lot of force, in every gear and in neutral it is perfect. The motor still runs fine minus a coil going bad now, but i doubt that the coil is causing this issue.

Please help me guys, has anyone seen this or heard of it? I am at a loss and I have a motorcycle safety class next month that I need this bike for.

Also if you need any parts off of a 1980 XJ650 Maxim, I have two full boxes of stock parts in good condition, let me know what you need.

-V/R
Chris

 

Go-over the "Throw-out setting procedure."

The Rod needs Zero free-play.
The Throw-out Arm needs Maximum "Throw"

The Red Tube is this photo it 10 cm in length.

You need at least 10 -to- 12 cm's between the Cable Retaining Bracket and the Pivot (Gray dot) to the Cable-end Attaching Clips rivet.

 

thanks for the reply Rick, I have gone through your clutch post probably 4 times now thinking I may have missed something but I think I got it all. I just went to the garage and checked the length as depicted above and it is more towards the longer end of the 10-12cm. I think that I am getting "full pull" on the clutch plates as I can take the oil fill plug out and while looking in there I can see the clutches disengaging and the outer plate is about an 1/8" away from the friction disks. I can also pull the clutch lever and slide the whole clutch assembly back and forth with my finger.

The weird thing is that it was all working perfectly before and then boom it just stops like that. I thought that I had over stretched the cable using the R-6 Clip on and levers but I put about 30 miles on the bike before this happened, so thats what led me to believe that the clutch was bad, also because it had sat for 10+years.

I am 99.99% sure I have it adjusted properly and its still not working. Anything internal that I can check? I dont hear any metal on metal grinding noises when I click it in gear and push it, (it does roll just requires a lot of force)

I may this weekend try to remove the entire clutch assembly, plates and friction pads and inspect everything again. If I take all the plates out leave them out with the side cover off I should be able to eliminate the clutch as the issue if I cant roll it in gear with everything removed correct? Or is that a bad idea???

 

^ what Rick said is a sure culprit as it will all appear fine and if it's not getting the full throw the clutch is still partially engaged. Curious just how hard it is to push in gear? Because it will always be easier in N than in gear even with a perfectly adjusted clutch. Wet clutches are just like that, always dragging a bit.

Something else to look at although it seems improbable but can be another cause; your clutch safety switch might have failed. It will start in 'N' but as soon as you go into gear, it's going to die. I didn't believe this was causing my Virago's issues, same as yours, but it was. Now my clutch was needing adjustment, which I did, but it would still grind then lurch and die upon going for 1st or 2nd. So next I fixed the switch and that fixed the problem, including it grinding going into gear. Not sure why the meshing of the gears or clutch was smoother after fixing the switch but it was.

 

When you remove the clutch basket. You seperate the transmission from the engine. The bike should then roll freely whether in gear or not. You will feel a bit of drag as the entrie transmission will be moving while in gear.

Another thing to look at is your cable routing. That 30 minute ride could have been enough to work the cable into a binding situation, and not allow full travel. I would still agree that cable adjustment would be your most likely cause though.

Ghost

 

MercuryMan, It is almost as if the clutch is not disengaging at all withthe force required to move the bike. Before I changed everythign over when it was stock, I could pull the clutch in, kick it in gear and roll it just as easy as it was in Neutral, now nothing.... I will go ahead and check the entire cable assembly and remove the clutch again and see if I can isolate the problem by eliminating the clutch all together.

I will report my findings in a couple hours as I just got home.

Thanks for the help guys, anyone else got any other ideas that it might be so I can look while im in there?

 

Hmm shouldn't be that hard to push. When you had it apart did you examine your plates? Did you clean them? Make sure they all went in the same way? I'll bet the problem is the clutch not anything else, but get in there and take a look. Examine the plates carefully. Let us know what you find.

 

OK I pulled the clutch assembly and boom it rolls like a champ. I inspected every plate and every disk, all the plates are flat, no hot spots at all, and the clutch pads are brand new. So I put it all back together, adjusted the cable again as per Rick's write up and still same thing. BOOO!!!!

So I decided to check the roll and throw manually, I grabbed a pair of long channel locks, padded the jaws, latched onto the lever coming out of the case and held the clutch pack open like that. Same thing! I took the oil fill plug out and as I forcefully push the bike I can see the bolts and plates spinning the. Something is not right here, its somehow not getting enough throw.

I inspected the basket assembly also and there appears to be some polishing in some spots of the inner housing where the steel plates ride, its not very deep but in some spots there is some burrs, very small but still anything may be hanging the plates up. Im going to polish them back down and see if that helps. I sure hope it does.

 

Are you using conventional dinosaur motorcycle oil, or are you using a synthetic oil?

Are you SURE the clutch cable adjustment at the lever perch is correct?

Have you checked to make sure that the lever on top of the pivot shaft on the clutch housing is indexed properly?

Dave Fox

 

This could be a problem. Get the finest cut flat file and d-bur the basket.

 

You can get more Throw by:

Moving the Throw-out Arm back a notch.

Lessening the slack by adjusting the position of the Clutch Cable Sheath by moving the Hex Nuts on the Barrel.

 

Those burrs are from wear and you don't want them there at all-should be smooth. Do they appear burred & rough where the friction plate tabs fit the slots? If this is really noticeable then you might be looking at a 'new to you' assembly. If they're bad enough they can trap some or all of the F. plates-appears some in your case.

Don't go past the point of smooth-you don't want to loosen the assembly up. I would clean with a good solvent afterwards then inspect with a nice bright light-go from there. Fully drenched in good fresh oil for reassembly.

 

Those "Indentations" is called Galling.

Wipe the channels with Panty Hose.
Anywhere that snags the material needs to be dressed.
You can smooth-out the Galling with:
• Sharpening Stone
• Dremel Tool and Fine Grinding Stone*
(* Flex-wand extension for precision grinding)

Adhesive Sanding Discs acquired from an Autobody Shop.
• 380, 400, 600, 800, (1200 for fun)

::: Make a Tool :::
Cut a wooden Paint Stirring Stick into 3-Inch long sections.
Stick a Disc to the stick.
Wrap it around so both sides have abrasive.
Trim.
Dress channels.


If the Channels are Hammered severely, ... you replace the part.

 

Okay - usually I have the cheap, no-cost answer, but not this time.

Let me just double check:
1) In gear, with the level pulled in the bike won't move past compression (ie engine turns with the wheels).
2) If you turn the lever on the cases with a set of mole grips to disengage the clutch without the cable mechanism, the result is the same.
Assuming both the above it is neither electrical nor the cable.

I can't describe the lifter mechanism inside the clutch in words, but presume you have checked that it is not broken in half and the thrust washer is in the right place with needles intact.

Sooo...
And this is what I'd hope is not the problem. You've mentioned torquing bolts and it is possible on some clutches to over-tighten the clutch boss nut. I've never seen this on a Yamaha (well I've never over-tightened one myself) but it is a problem on the missus' Suzuki). The middle of the clutch basket runs on a bronze plain bearing and if crushed it will throw out the careful spacing of the clutch, so when the clutch should be disengaging, the components on the shaft still bind.

To check this, when you have the plates out, see if the inner and outer parts of the basket rotate freely (with the nut still done up). If they do, then breathe a sigh of relief, this is not your problem. Go back to looking at the order you put the clutch plates in and maybe leave out that little balancer ring in case you're getting it caught somehow.

If it they do not turn freely relative to each other, but they do when you loosen the nut, then either you have the wrong washer somewhere which bears on the inside when it should bear on the outside, or vise-versa, or that middle bush has been crushed. If that's the case, a second hand clutch basket will be the way to go.

 

If you've got deep divots or burrs it can very well hang the clutch up and keep it from releasing.

As recommended above, try smoothing them out with a fine, sharp file or polishing stone. If you end up having to remove very much metal, it would be better to replace the part; be it basket or hub.

Just double-checking:

Eight friction plates, seven loose plain plates; all parts soaked in oil for an hour or so before assembly; and you were careful to align the dot cast into the pressure plate with the dot cast into the hub?

 

Have you tried starting in gear holding the clutch in? (be prepared to lurch forward and take off).

Does the clutch fell normal when you pull the lever?

 

So I polished up the inner basket and outer baskets last night to remove all the little burs and indents. And it did seem to help. I checked the cable routing again and it is in the most direct line possible.

Fitz,
I do have the correct number of plates, I referenced your how to post on clutch replacement to verify last night and did soak them in oil before assembly. Also triple checked the dots were aligned upon reassembly.

Greg,
I have looked everything over in side of the cover. I have not taken apart the whole assembly as I did not think that would be the cause. I did however take the clutch plates off and it rolls smooth as glass in all gears just as if it was in neutral.

Rick,
I have adjusted the cable to the best that I can. The dot on the throwout arm is aligned up with the notch in the case and as I pull the lever up top it feel perfect. No binding, no sticking spots and nothing abnormal. I can take a pair of channel locks and turn the throw out arm and I thin it is bottoming out because it just stops moving and feels like it is hitting something. I receive the same about of throw from the lever up top also to get to this bottoming effect.

So late last night (yea I think the new neighbors were pissed) I said screw it, buttoned everything up, fresh yamalube oil and crossed my fingers on start up. She stared smooth and after a bit of warming up sat down, pulled the clutch, slammed on the front brake and gently eased her into 1st gear. She did not die but did lerch just a bit. I let off the brake slowly to see if I would start rolling forward and nothing. I could move it freely as if it was in neutral but I was in 1st. WTF! So around the block I went, cycled through all gears and she felt great going up and down. Come to the stop sign, pull the clutch in, kick it to neutral, stop, rolls just fine, kick to 1st, rolls just fine... get back to the garage, shut her down in 1st, wont roll with lever pulled? Im lost guys, should I just stop worrying about this and let the new clutch wear in then address the issue if it remains?

Thanks for everything fellas, all great advice.

 

as long as it functions properly when running then you're all set, most bikes are a bit harder to push in gear when not running because you have more parts to move with the rear tire, and rolling the bike around in gear with the clutch in when running is a big no, no. your hand slips then the bike jumps and you're not ready for it.... then you'll have some cosmetic work to do.

the clutch handle should always be able to be tweaked for rider preference, so as long as you have it adjusted so that the plates separate within the first half of the clutch handle movement you should be safe.

 

If it releases fine with the motor running, then worry about other things; it's a brand new clutch.

 

Clownman,

Disconnect clutch cable at bracket and lever. Remove C-clip from throw out rod through cover. Remove lever/spring from throw out rod Rotatae splinned throw out rod CW till it stops (You now have full throw-out). Replace lever/spring aligning indent in lever with mark on clutch cover (see Rick's picture). Replace and adjust clutch cable. As mentioned by another member it may seem that you have full throw out but you don't. When you do this you will know for sure you have it. Hope this helps.

Gary

 

Did you rotate the ROD (Axle, Push Lever) Clockwise removing all Free-play out of the "Rack-'n-pinion Puller" (Rod, Push 1), ... and SUSTAIN the Free-play removal by holding the ROD ... with all the Free-play removed BEFORE placing the Throw-out Arm on the Splines at the end of the ROD.

I wind a shoelace around the ROD and pull the string tight.
(Like yanking the rope to start a lawn-mower.)
Then, I tape the shoelace to the Case with Duct Tape.

AFTER the Free-play is removed from that Rod, ... I attach the Throw-out arm to the Rod.
Once I have the Throw-out Arm secured, ... I move the Throw-out Arm with Padded Channel-locks to make the connection of the Throw-out Arm to the Bullet at the end of the Cable.

Once the Throw-out Arm is secured to the Cable end, ...
I adjust the Knurl at the Lever Perch to achieve ZERO-Lash.
I remove every bit of the Free-play out of the Cable so the Clutch Lever will apply Maximum Throw down at the Pressure Plate.

However you choose to secure the Rod after removing the Free-play is up to you.
But, it is a necessary function to assure the Clutches release.

 

You can't run the cable at zero lash. That will cause premature failure of the throwout "wafer" bearing. It isn't supposed to be under load all the time.

 

It's not under load.
ALL the slack is removed/
No pressure on the cable.