regulator rectifier problem

Ok, so a few months ago I had some moron work on my bike. He ended up taking out the original regulator rectifier and replaced it with one from a different type of bike. However, the new one only had 6 wires coming from it while the original had 7 (the green wire was capped off and didn't seem to affect anything). Recently the turn signals and headlight stopped working (but the bike still ran fine). I've tested all the lights and they are fine. In a last ditch effort to get them working, I tried swapping RR and reinstalled the original (which after testing found out there was nothing wrong with it). So the reinstallation seemed to go pretty easy. The only thing that I questioned was that there are 3 white wires. Since the clip adapter was cut off, I had to guess which of the wires connected to the correct harness wire.

Here's the long and short:

I tried ALL possibilities when connecting the 3 white wires. The bike powered on no matter which white wire I had hooked the corresponding wires, and the brake light and horn worked as well. However, not only did I not fix the original problem with the headlight and turn signals, now the freaking bike won't start. It won't even turn over at all.

Out of desperation I tried putting the other RR back on and still the bike won't fire.

I've checked all 4 fuses and they are fine. Prior to messing with the RR, the bike ran fine. What could I have done? I don't even have a clue where to start. Any comments or suggestions are much appreciated.


Thanks!

 

the 3 white wires come from the alternator, there is no order, just W to W. then they go to the RR then the RR powers the bike. there's a test for the RR in the books. (get a book)
lets hope the RR didn't hurt the TCI. for now get a meter and check the voltage at the battery while you're cranking the starter. 10 is good, 9 is iffy, less it won't start. maybe the battery is just low.
oh, is this a yamaha?

 

Thanks for the reply, Polock. I can't check the voltage when cranking because it won't crank! When I hit the start button, it does absolutely nothing. I'm sure there's enough juice in the battery for it to crank though. Like I said, the only things that work when I turn the key are the horn, tailight and rear brake light.

How could I test if the TCI was damaged? Could it be anything else?

Thanks also for letting go me know about the 3 white wires. That weeds that part out as the potential problem.

 

if we knew what kind of bike you have, then some of the electrical gurus could tell you what to look at. personally i don't have any relays or safety type things, so i don't pretend to know about them.
is the kill switch off, or on? that's all i know.

 

Here's the good news: The bike cranking problem can essentially be solved separately.

The bad news is that even if you fix that, you really don't want to run a bike for very long without the RR, since it's part of the stabilizing mechanism for the bike's power system and you CAN fry things without it. But I digress.

If the starter won't turn, there are some VERY simple things to check.

1. Battery voltage. Starter won't turn without battery. Test with a voltmeter or multimeter.
2. Starter motor. Test by MAKING QUITE SURE THE BIKE IS IN NEUTRAL and then BRIEFLY connecting the battery's POSITIVE terminal directly to the terminal on the starter motor using jumper cables. The starter motor will turn and it can be kind of startling because usually your head is not right next to the motor when you start the bike. (Come to think of it, I recommend setting the kill switch to OFF, just in case.)
   
3. Starter relay (solenoid). When you press the starter button, the solenoid is what shunts power from the battery DIRECTLY to the starter motor.
4. Start button (handlebar controls)
5. Wiring (evil!)

I recommend testing them in that order.

Then there's the RR problem. I don't have the wiring diagram in front of me, but Polok is correct. The three white wires can be connected in any order to the RR, so long as they are connected to the pins intended for those connections. (That is, you can't connect them to the one meant for the black wire, but the three white ones are interchangeable WITH EACH OTHER.) They basically provide power from the alternator to the RR. When power from one is rising, the power from the previous one is falling. Diodes are used to make sure that power only ever flows in the direction we want, and voila! Reasonably constant power.

If you don't have the Haynes manual and the service manuals, I highly recommend them. And the XJ CDs, if they can still be found. The complete testing process for the RR is spelled out in there.

Reply to this to remind me. I may still have a spare RR around here that you can have. I inherited a box of them at one point.

 

Test the stator. Use dmm to three phase test white wires. We don't know what bike you have but the output should be equal for the three.

Gary H.

 

Before you tore into the R/R did you happen to bother to check the fuses and fuseblock? DOes your bike still have the original fuseblock?

 

Guys,

Thanks a ton for your responses. Here's the progress I've made:

Disconnected battery, reinstalled original RR, reconnected battery. I jumped the starter solenoid by connecting the positive and negative with a screwdriver and the bike fired right up. Magically, the headlight started working again in both high and low beam.

After taking it out for a 8 mile ride I noticed the RR was extremely hot! Too hot to touch. Not sure if that's normal or not, even though it was in the 90's when I was riding. Other than that the bike performed as it should.

Follow-up questions:

1. Turn signals still don't work. Fuses are good (original fuse box - very crappy!). Where would you start looking for the problem?

2. I don't have a multimeter but I do have a voltage tester. If I take the voltage directly from the battery before starting and compare to when the bike is running, if the voltage increases, could I assume the RR is working?

3. Since I had to jump the starter solenoid to start it, does that mean the only other thing it could be is the starter button or could it be something else? I guess it's possible that the RR had nothing to do with the starting issue? Could have been a weird timing coincidence or something...

By the way, this is for a 1981 xj650, not the midnight edition.


Thanks again for all your help, guys!

 

A super-hot RR is not normal. It should be replaced before it fries something else.

The battery is good and the starter motor is good and most of the other electrics are good since it rode for several miles. However, a faulty/failing RR is going to start frying things so that needs to be fixed FIRST.

Once that's done, we can get about figuring out why the starter circuit isn't working. There are several possibilities, including safety relays that may be preventing the starter button from sending the signal to the solenoid. Two of them in particular are:

1) Neutral sensor. If the bike is in neutral but the green indicator light is not on, you can bypass this by holding in the clutch. HOWEVER, this only works if the switch in the clutch lever is also working. SO... Does the green neutral indicator work? If so, make sure the bike is in neutral before trying to start it.

2) Side stand sensor. Again, bypassed if the bike is in neutral, but only if the neutral sensor is working.

Get back to us about the neutral sensor and we'll go from there.

The last thing you asked about was the flashers. If you 650 is like mine, the blinkers in front are ON ("running" mode) in FRONT, but are OFF in BACK. They should be in this state with the key in the RUN position, even if the bike isn't running. (WARNING: This will drain the battery, so don't leave it like that.) You can verify this by removing the bulbs and looking at the terminals.

If there is ONE little silver "dot" inside, that is the "non-running light" style that only illuminates when signalling. This takes a single-filament bulb.

If there are TWO silver "dots" inside, that is the "running-light" style that is dim normally and bright when signalling. This takes a dual-filament bulb with matching terminals on the bottom. I'm sorry I don't remember the part numbers offhand, but I do recall that the numbers are one off from each other.

Now you know things and you can start troubleshooting. Before you do anything else, find and REMOVE the self-cancelling unit. It's a rubberized rectangular block under the tank close to the airbox that has a 9-pin connector. Just remove it, at least while you're troubleshooting. The blinkers will work fine without it, and it is well-known for causing issues. If you want it back, get everything else working and then re-install and re-test it LAST.

If you have the "running light" style front lights and the front lights are not on, you may have a fuse problem. (You should strongly consider replacing the glass fuse box with the blade-type fuse box. I've done this on two bikes and have a third planned.)

If you don't have a fuse problem and the lights aren't on (verify that you have positive voltage at the blinker terminals with the bulbs out), then you may have the wrong bulbs. I don't have the part numbers handy at the moment, but you MUST HAVE THE CORRECT BULBS in the front and back or the blinkers WILL NOT WORK. Post the part numbers of the bulbs you do have and we can check them for you.

If the lights are on but won't flash, it could be the blinker relay. This is mounted under the tank near the front of the bike, just above the horn. These are also well-known for failing. If you pull open the casing and lots of orange or white dust pours out, it's done. You'll have to find a replacement. (There are several threads on here about replacing this.)

Let us know, and good luck!

 

Actually a hot RR is normal. The alternator makes voltage based on the RPM of the engine; this is unregulated AC. The rectifier turns the AC output of the alternator into DC that the bike can use for the TCI, charging the battery, lights, ect. The voltage regulator takes the unregulated DC voltage from the rectifier and limits the peak voltage by dumping the excess voltage to ground, which creates a great deal of heat. This is why the RR has that big aluminum heatsink on it. A hot RR is not necessaraly an indication of a faulty RR; that can only be determined by a series of electrical tests.

 

Scottb321, Start by replacing the fusebox with a modern ATC fusebox. I suspect that most (if not all) of your problems will be solved with that one change. The original fuse clips get brittle with age, crack, and then begin to make intermittant contact. Note that you cannot use a common-buss fusebox as an upgrade.