solenoid wires

I think I have a prob with the solenoid. I read lots of posts on here, cleaning/repairing, adapting a new one, other electrical issues.

Some quick background. I brought the bike home from work one night. No headlight when I started it. Never thought to look for tail-lights. Drove it all the next day, no headlight, bike shut off at intersection leaving me sit. Started once after 5 mins, no more start. Battery is new and good. Brought it home, jumped the solenoid, starter turns, no fire. Soooo........

I am going to replace the solenoid for starters. Got a tru-tech model ss598t at the auto store.

The direction say where to hook up the positive cable and the starter cable, but not sure how to interpret the rest of the instructions.

"Connect ignition switch lead to S terminal. Connect coil lead to I terminal if applicable.
(Bold) If original switch only has 3 terminals - B,M, and S, do not use I terminal."

Do I desolder the wire harness and solder both wired to the I terminal? I have a red and white wire, and a blue and white wire... which is which?

If I put this thing in and the starter turns but bike doesn't fire, where do I look next?

1981 xj650 maxim

All help is appreciated.

Thanks,

Don

 

C'mon guys, puhleaseeee.... I really wanna ride this weekend. At least 1 free ice cold beer to anyone/everyone that can help me out.

 

Where in PA are you?

 

+1

 

In Fleetwood. Not so far from Jersey.

 

ahhh....Fleetwood. Ok I grew up near there, but am now in Pittsburgh. Sorry, I can't help you in person...

Do you have the wiring diagram? That will help.

 

I have the CD's, but they don't show a solenoid under electrical unless I'm looking in the wrong place.

 

Dang. Was hoping you were a bit closer.

Going out of town for the weekend, then flying to Dallas on Tuesday and won't be back till Friday night.

If you want to ride this weekend, I'd just continue jumping the old solenoid.

If it's not going by next week, maybe we can get together.

Greg

 

Try HERE

It's on Part 2 just below the battery, you will see the blue/white and a red/white wire going to it. It is number 3.

 

Not sure a wiring diagram would help me... I would still have the question of whether to put both wires to the "S" terminal or not. Thought I could find someone that knows solenoids/electrical, but thank you anyway.

 

Thank you for the diagram, I am thinking...

 

Ok, I'm going to presume that when it says to use ("coil lead to I") that since we have coils, that wire needs to go on there. I'm going to give that a try.

If that works and doesn't burn anything out, and the starter spins but no fire like when I jumped it, where to look next? And no headlight?

I do very much appreciate the help. Thanks.

 

ok...the blue/white wire is the ignition wire.

The red/white wire is the starter cut-off.

The blue/white definitely needs to be connected to the S terminal.

as for the red/white....put it on the I terminal.

Of course I am not sure if the starter solenoid is the problem. it cranks with the solenoid bypassed, but doesn't start. Sounds to me like it is something else. If it does not even crank with the solenoid in the circuit, then either the solenoid is bad, or one of the sensors that cut off the starter circuit are bad, or you just have one of them not enabled.

 

have you checked the alternator brushes? If you have no headlight, there might not be enough charge available to make the headlight turn on, OR the cut-off for the headlight is malfunctioning.

 

from looking at the wiring diagram the following will cut the starter out, so check them.

1) Clutch switch
2) Sidestand switch
3) Neutral switch
4) Stop/Run switch

 

I haven't checked the alternator brushes or any of the sensors that could cause the starting circuit to not work but I am going to. I'm actually wondering if, as it sounds, I just got unlucky enough to gain two problems at once. Since I'm fairly sure the solenoid is bad, and this one was cheap enough, I'm going to replace it and see what happens. I just found a lot of the electrical stuff under wiring which seems relevant, (did not see this section right away).

If I still have a problem I'm going to do the fuse box replacement which I would have anyway and then go from there and check the things you said.

Thank you very much for helping, I will post an update.

By the by, I did not engage the clutch when trying to start it with the solenoid jumped, going to try that also.

 

Sorry Greg, missed your post. I'll let you know if it's running !

 

ok, well you have a lot of trouble shooting to do and then report back. More information will be helpful to help diagnose what the problem is. Keep us posted on the progress.

 

There is a very strong possiblity your problem does not lie in the solenoid. I'm going to lay odds it is the fuse block. I've had this problem with my bike doing similar stunts (no headlight, 20 miles from home and the sun was sinking fast). Check your fuse block for corrosion/broken contacts.
Given there is no side stand switch on your model it's one more thing you don't have to worry about. I'll also make the observation that if you could start the beast, your clutch switch won't have anything to do with shutting a running motor down. Neutral switch won't either. That leaves your Stop/Run switch and the known weak link, the fuse box, as your main culprit. Guess which one I'm betting on.

 

The Dead Bike Derby
Morning Line

1. Fuse Block - - - - - - - - - 1/9 (Perennial Favorite, no brainer)
2. Kill Switch - - - - - - - - - 3/1 (Age a factor, can't handle slop)
3. Ignition Switch - - - - - - 5/1 (Key role, needs clean shot)
4. Solenoid - - - - - - - - - - 2/1 (Can't get going sometimes)

 

I thought I'd get better odds on the block.

 

Ok. Here is an update.

I first wired in the new solenoid. No neutral light where I had one before. Bike cranks on jumping the solenoid, does not start.

I took off the ignition switch, cleaned the contacts. Took off the start button, cleaned that also. Rewired the fuse box with inline blade links till I can get a nice fuse box.

No neutral light. Bike starts with solenoid jump, runs a few seconds and dies out. No headlight either yet. Start switch does not kick it over either.

Any ideas before I start tearing everything out including what little hair I have left? Heh.

 

Hanging on the frame.
Under the tank. In front of the seat mounting bolt and to the rear of the signals self-canceling unit is the safety relay.

Unplug it and shift to Neutral.

If the bike starts.
You have an errant signal to the relay or a bad relay.

Do not replace Safety Relay with regular electric relay. Safety relay wired differently. Will cause dangerous starting conditions with incorrect relay.

 

Thanks, going to try that. I just pulled the cover on my alternator and measured the brushes. They are 7/16. Too small? Time to replace? Might be a prob?

Will check back about the relay.

Thanks again.

 

Weeee!!!! Getting there I think! Still no neutral light when turning the key on. No headlight. Starter button doesn't work. Jumped the solenoid.

Bike starts with relay unplugged and now have neutral light with bike running and headlight and !!! oil light!!!

Bike only stays running at 3 grand and as soon as it drops to 2 grand, shuts off.

A short drawing off juice? What goes to the safety relay? Lighting system?

 

You're close to the edge on the brushes; that's for sure.

Bike runs at 3K (Pulling fuel from Main Jet system) .. Stalls at low revs (No fuel / Not enough fuel) ... no comment about backfire ... leaning toward Mixture problem ... Pilot Jet - Passages - Pilot Screw --- let's roll the dice and set the Pilot Mixture Screws to 3-Turns OUT and get it running for Mixture tweak.

The headlight's probably on a "Run - Relay" ... I don't have a wiring diagram. Some bikes have relays that kill the headlight when the bikes not running. I wish mine had one!

Troubleshoot Clutch Pull Switch (safety circuit)
It's disabled with the relay unplugged ... but, you can test it for opening and closing easy enough.

 

5) Dirty connector on the safety relay (Happened to me last week).

 

Ok. Going to start on the relay today, make sure it is good and then trace wires.

I'm looking for the neutral switch to check that first. Is that on the bottom of my oil pan with a few wires running to it? If not, then what would >that< one be? If that's it, do I need to drain the oil to check it?

Thanks again, hope I am not a PITA.

Going to buy tools, 12v test light and a Dimm, bbl.

 

The switch on the bottom of the oil pan is the oil level switch.

Neutral safety switch is on the left side of the motor under the aluminum cover. Remove shift lever and then remove the cover and you will see it in there with a single wire hooked up to it. You only need to drain the oil to remove it if it is bad and needs to be replaced. Just check for continuity with the gearbox in 1st (should be none) and in N (should be closed).

 

Just got back to working on my bike. I had the cover off under the shift lever... I can't find that darn neutral switch. I see no wires in there at all. Could I get more specific directions please?

I did the short test from negetive batt post to groung cable, no short. Multi-metered every wire along the ignition I could, even through the wiring harness in the headlight, everything seems good. I took the run switch apart again, double-checked and cleaned the contacts. Nothing.

If I can find the neutral switch and eliminate that, must it then be a relay? I'm going to go google how to test a relay switch.

Didn't get new brushes in yet, but they couldn't be bad, could they?, if the bikes runs jumping the selenoid? Is the new selenoid maybe different and I should put the old one back on?

Bike still starts shorting the selenoid and keeps running if I keep it over 2 G rpm. And then I have all lights too. At 2G it cuts right out. It's got to be electrical. Nothing at all when I turn the key though.

Getting frustrated, it's soon going to the $$$Shop.

I do appreciate everyones help though.

 

Oh... also, I wanted to ask...

I remember reading something on here about the voltage regulator. Something along the lines of it only puts out like 3 volts at idle, but 10-11 volts at higher rpms?

Would a bad voltage regulator give a problem with the ignition?

Could that cause the bike to shut down at 2G rpm?

 

Did you examine the ALTERNATOR BRUSHES???

At 2K is where the Voltage Regulator is supposed to be producing 14.2 Volts and supplying current to run the bike and charge the battery.

Below 2K the bike essentially is powered by the battery.

If the alternator is not functioning do to a weak battery and brushes out of service limit ... you have a viscous circle of insufficient electrical power to the "The System" ... and, the bike's not going to run right.

 

Hey guys, I am really new here, and I do see that the thread is now going away from this being a solenoid problem, but I did want share something that I hope is helpful.

Attached is a diagram (sorry for how crude it is, mspaint...) of how to test the solenoid, without removing or disassembling it. Basically, assuming power is getting to it from the lead that goes straight to the plus side of the battery (big thick, typically the red one), you should see power on the other side (big thick, typically the black one) when you pull the thin (typically blue) wire to ground. You can do this by unplugging the thin wire from the harness and using a short piec of wire to touch it to the negative/ground side of your battery. Be warned, it will try to start the bike, so watch lose clothing...:lol:

Your solenoid is basically a relay with one pole of the coil tied to itself. In fact, if it is bad you can easily replace it with a high current, low voltage relay from radioshack (or somewhere that actually still sells parts). An SCR or MOSfet would work as well (solid state is nice and very easily handles the current assuming you either use a diode to limit spikes, or get one that has spike protection). If you use this method, you could actually place a MOSfet or SCR into the old solenoid case, use some epoxy to close it back up, and it would still look stock but be solid state and would cost no more then 5 dollars to repair.

Hope this helps narrow down the problem and possibly help others with bad or questionable solenoids, and good luck tracking down the rest of the issue.

 

Nicely done and welcome to the forum! We accept knowledge from any quarter, new faces included! I doubt most folks would be able (myself included) to plumb a MOSFET or SCR into the system with the ease that your write up belies, would you perhaps care to create a write-up that details (as you have so very nicely demonstrated your ability) the what, how and why's of making such a conversion? I understand the benefit of longer life and lower current loss, but I'm not up on which part goes to where.
Looking forward to your favorable reply!

 

That's going to be a BIG Money saver!

Wow!

 

I put a MOSfet controlled solenoid for stuff like this together a while ago, haven't made one in recent years, so betting they have better stuff now for handling the amperage. I will see about building one and making a tutorial. When I do, I will throw it up here in a different thread so as not to hijack this one even in a well meaning way. I'll keep you posted, pretty busy this week, so may be a bit. Thank you for the kind welcome.

weizenguy, didn't mean to hijack the thread in anyway, how goes the battle? If you are only getting 10-11 volts out, then like RickCoMatic said, you want to check the alternator. It is doubtful that it is the regulator if you are getting anything out as they typically work and put out the right voltage (or up to whatever is going in, in this case 10-11 volts), or they don't work and don't put out anything from what I have seen.

 

I have a similar problem starting cold or hot.
It seems that I don't have enough fuel, so it's even harder to start when the bike is cold. It starts with some difficulties at full choke, and as soon as I open the throtle the engine dies.
No major problem at high RPM.
My question is... where are the pilot screws located?