Starter Clutch and/or what else?....

Having an intermittently occurring starting problem that sounds clack a bunch of marbles in the case and based on the research through the forum it looks like I am having to make a shopping list of parts needed to complete a starter clutch repair.

Have been on the path of either ruling it out or eliminating all other possible sources before digging in.

Other than the starter clutch what are the other parts that should be diagnosed/refurbished/inspected before going into the engine?

What other parts themselves are needed? gaskets, bearings, lubes, etc. that should be addressed and prepared for when doing a repair of this magnitude.

In other words, "what else should be done before/while the bike has been torn down that far?"

 

Re: Starter Clutch and what else?....

Things to check first:

-the type and grade of OIL you're running (needs to be 20W50 conventional motorcycle-spec.)

-the starter itself; if it doesn't spin with "authority" then it won't cause the sprag clutch to engage.

You'd need a full engine gasket set; and you should at the very least replace the primary chain guide and oil nozzle while it's split. You'll also need a tube of Yamabond #4 or equivalent (specialized sealer) and a FACTORY service manual; I wouldn't attempt it with just the Haynes.

 

Re: Starter Clutch and what else?....

a 1/4 and 3/8 drive torque wrenches, bolt or puller for the alternator, a torx driver bit and maybe a hand impact driver. you can save some money on the gasket set and use the yamabond for the gaskets if you want to

 

Re: Starter Clutch and what else?....

Oil Valvoline 20w50 4 Stroke,
http://www.valvoline.com/products/brand ... atv-oil/13


Starter?
How do you evaluate it?

Battery has been tested and confirmed "GOOD"

 

Re: Starter Clutch and what else?....

i think 20w 50 is too thick and can strain the motor

 

Re: Starter Clutch and what else?....

You think wrong. 20W50 won't "strain the motor."

 

Re: Starter Clutch and what else?....

Primary chain GUIDE, even if the current one looks good.........

 

Re: Starter Clutch and what else?....

And its oil nozzle, which I'll bet does not look good...

 

Re: Starter Clutch and what else?....

You definitely want 20-50 in these bikes with any age. It helps keep them cool. These bikes were really designed in the late 70s. Its not like the new vehicles where the tolerances are much tighter and you need real thin oil just so it will flow. I know yamaha made these motors thin as possible its insane having to disassemble the whole motor because the starter clutch fails. So many of these bikes went to the scrap yard before their time because of it they should have came with kick starts as a back up but nothing does anymore most scooters and 4 wheelers even have electric start.

 

Re: Starter Clutch and what else?....

Is the starter clutch a real issue on those bike?

I know that with my son's XV750,they are a real issue. I currently have my engine stripped down atm. How do I check the starter clutch?

 

Re: Starter Clutch and what else?....

If you didn't know - the "50" goes away quickly in a motorcycle engine and you are eventually left with a "20" w "less than 50" oil.

And - most oils you should be buying FAR exceed the needs of 1983.

We should make a list of "oils not to buy" and make it a "sticky" !!

 

Re: Starter Clutch and what else?....

Especially in bikes like ours in which the oil does double duty and serves as tranny fluid too.

 

Re: Starter Clutch and what else?....

The oils to buy list can be found below.

 

Scratch the starter off of the list.

Rebuilt the starter, cleaned and used new wear components, shine the comm, grease up the mechanical end, and the problem continues.

http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=2 ... enoid.html

http://www.xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic ... art=0.html

Now the starter sounds like it means business.

This week I am likely to attempt to hose out the starter clutch with solvent through the alternator passage.

Any horror stories about that idea?

 

"Any horror stories about that idea?"

Inquisitive minds want to know.

wscraig76, why don't you do it and let us know what happens? :wink:

Hope you live to tell us!!

Bob

 

Inspired by your idea, and by reading that sprague clutches rarely fail, I decided to add 2-1/2 ounces of Seafoam per quart of motor oil to the crankcase. This is according to the instructions on the side of the can. Ran the bike pretty hard for about a half hour. The starter clutch is now working as it should. It doesn't work every time, but about 9 out of 10 times. I consider that a victory. It was working about 2 out of 10 before. Yes, it even works when the bike is cold. That's where it was worst before.

I'm not recommending you do this, but I am only telling you it worked for me.

This is on an 82 xj750J. It only has 16K on the clock. Don't expect I will be splitting the case on this one soon.

 

Until the primary chain guide starts to break up. But that's a different story.

I hope you got the SeaFoam-diluted oil OUT of there before you did big-time wrong to your mains, crankshaft, and all the other plain bearings in the motor...

It's nice that it worked for you, but I'm glad you're not recommending it. A couple of "short" oil changes with the correct oil could have accomplished the same thing; without playing "Russian roulette" with your big end.

 

You are right about getting the mixture back out of the crankcase. No reason to have it in anymore. I'll replace with my favorite, Rotella 15-40.

Hope it warms up here, soon. Getting tired of this COLD weather this Spring.

Nice site. I probably won't be on as often, now that every problem is solved on my XJ. Back on to the Naked Goldwing site to talk about my '79 Goldwing. Down to two bikes, now, so problems aren't as plentiful.

 

Well Good deal. I'm glad that worked out for someone.

I still have not pulled the trigger on mine yet. Sourcing supplies, reviewing procedures, considering options. Been pondering this one quite a while and I am THINKING that when it fails the symptoms manifest in two different ways that may actually identify the source of the failure.

Fails when Hot:
Fails when Cold:

Each time I start thinking in this "LOOP"....

I seem to get stuck in a circle when it comes to how metal behaves when it is heated vs. cold. They way the various pieces interact with each other to make the whole unit and how those specific signals should point to whichever components are not performing as they should.

At rest, regardless of temp, the entire assembly should be locked down and engaged and operate as expected. Should it not go that way there are components failing to do the job they were designed to do.


When Cold: gummy oil, spring failure, Roller Failure, Hub Failure, General mechanical failure.

When Hot: wrong oil or weak springs, rollers temporarily seized within hub and due centrifugal force they have been pulled away from the shaft they engage, but maybe due to sludge or whatever they are SLOWLY returning to the correct "at rest" position.

I could likely spin in circles for weeks considering and thinking through various theories.

Perhaps I am overthinking it and really there is nothing to it but to do it.

 

The "hot vs. cold" thing isn't so much because the metal behaves differently at different temps.

It's more a situation of how the oil interacts with the parts, how worn (or simply "polished smooth" the parts are) whether the unit is gummed up, the springs getting weak or the real true out-and-out failure, the body of the sprag clutch actually cracking at the roller slots.

A less-worn sprag clutch will be much less sensitive to the oil (type, weight, etc.,) than a well-worn one in a higher-mileage bike. Synthetic oil often proves simply "too slippery" for a worn starter clutch, even one that would be fine with Dino juice in it.

Additionally, what duty the starter clutch actually has to perform varies due to the state of tune of the engine. A poorly-tuned motor will mean the sprag will need to remain engaged for longer; and an engine that sputters or stumbles when starting will hammer the crap out of it by causing it to disengage then immediately re-engage, often repeatedly.

A motor that "kicks back" with any frequency will batter it as well, which is why the V-Twin Virago series had more "starter clutch issues."

If the clutch body has actually failed and cracked at the roller tracks, it's gonna act up hot or cold. If it works fine cold, then I'd re-think my choice of oil, and possibly service the starter itself. If the starter doesn't always spin vigorously and consistently it will mimic a starter clutch issue.

I'd also want to positively eliminate all of the other possibilities before splitting the cases.

 

I'm stumped.


How do you remove the sealing plate and bearing from the alternator shaft once you've got the rotor and the sealing plate screws off?

Looks like thus must be removed to have line of sight to the starter clutch assembly.

 

You do realize that even once you can see the starter clutch through the alternator opening you'll be looking at the BACK SIDE and won't be able to tell anything about its condition?

 

For clarity: The early US Viragos didn't have a starter clutch per-se, they had a conglomeration of "that'll probably work" parts that Yamaha USA specified to help keep the sales price lower, and make the left engine case look more like that of another company which shall not be named. The rest of the world got a perfectly fine automotive-type starter system, as did the post '83 US models.

 

Understood. This is more like an attempt to shoot solvent at the starter clutch assembly.

Yeah I was hoping to be able to sneak a peek at those internals but the purpose is about ELIMINATING ALL OTHER POSSIBLE OPTIONS.. prior to surgery.

Oil- been running the previously linked oil for 2 years.

Battery- recently upgraded to NEW ATM.

Starter, refurbished 2 weeks ago.

All crossed off the suspects list.

 

Basically, you just yank the alternator shaft out, once you get it remove a bot (from the far (right) side shaft mount, the shaft (and starter clutch/gear) will drop down a bit, and allow you to un-hook the primary chain , and then the starter clutch can be removed from the shaft. But you might just want to try prying the bearing housing off the shaft (that the piece that was held on by the three staked screws); you'll still be able to see and access (with a spray can straw) the starter clutch, although it is quite hard to get the stuff into the inner workings from the "backside" of the unit, as Big Fitz noted. But, something is/might be better than nothing.

 

...and this project is now done.

 

Drill &tap a 4mm hole in the right hand side of the 'hump', squirt away, then bolt up.