stick welding.

hi all i read some posts on here the other day about stick welding motorcycle frames.it was very interesting and theres a lot more to it than i realised.unfortunately my browser history is set not to save and i cant seem to find the posts anymore so i have a few questions that i hope you may b able to help me with.
firstly i am not a welder,i can get by sticking things together but wdnt attempt welding my frame yet,but am confidant i can weld gd enough to do brackets on a frame.i have an ancient sip weldmate 140 stick welder,do u think its ok to use this to weld brackets on a frame? i know a mig wd be preferable,but i dont have one.
i assume it is an ac welder only as those seem to b cheaper.the leads for the clamp and electrode holder are held to the machine with a nut.there is a pic on the welder to show which is for the clamp and which is for the holder.if i reverse these it doesnt turn it from ac to dc does it? or is it more likely to go bang and cover my face in black soot and make my hair stand on end?
i can lay my hands on enough scrap metal to practice with,but dont want to spend all my time practicing with something that wont b up to the job when the time comes.if i had the money i wd buy a mig,and practice with that,but i just dont have the money at the mo.so for the time being im stuck with a stick welder.
any help or info would be gratefully recieved.
thanks all.

 

Are you confident that your skills are sufficient that you wouldn't weaken the frame when welding a bracket to it?

My recommendation is that rather than spend the time trying to learn to weld you'd be better served spending the time scrounging up a few pennies to pay someone who knows what he's doing.

 

+1 hire a pro !!
You can still do all the prep and bracket fabricating yourself.
And of course, continue to learn how to weld.
Tell us more about your project.

 

cheers guys.i thought as much,i just wanted to try and do as much myself as i could.theres a bloke at work can do the welding i need doin so theres no great probs on that score.
project is just choppin/bobbin an xj600 a bit.its posted in xj modifications.its on there twice.once as chobobber project,which is mainly just pics,and xj600 project,which is basically the same with a little mor written detail.im a bit limited as to how much time i can get on it,but am still hopefull to have it sortd for spring.
thanks again for yr advice.

 

reversing the leads won't change it from ac to dc, i think it's a safety thing
i guess if you want to you could get it all ready and just tack it with one spark then let someone else finish it

be careful the frame's not very thick

 

You are violating several Golden Rules of Maintenance and Repairs.

1) Use the RIGHT Tools. The Stick ... "Arc" Weld is NOT the right Weld.

2) Only attempt to perform work for which you are qualified.

3) Don't make a GOOD Situation: Bad. Don't make a BAD Situation: Worse!

Learn how to Arc Weld. The skills might come in handy if they need a Bridge repaired.

Leave the Lid to Pandora's Box closed.

 

The factory used a MIG welder to make the frame. If your friend can MIG weld, have him do it. If he has a TIG welder that can be just as strong and look much nicer. Just make sure either way you go that the right wire or welding rod is used.


MN

 

other than opinions, WHY NOT USE THE STICK?????????

just because mig (GMAW) is easier and any amateur can make it look good does not mean it is good or better at all. flux core wire welding (FCAW, commonly mislabeled as mig) is worse.

any heavy steel construction is ONLY done with stick(bridges, sky scrapers), as well as high pressure steam pipes and other pipe welding.

stick (SMAW) welding is perfectly fine for welding the bike frame, and if done properly will be just as good if not better than any mig weld. the quality of the stick weld is very dependent on the welders skill. the frame is relatively thin material, so you can blow through (also a problem with mig). it is much easier as a beginner to stick weld a horizontal joint, it is much easier to control the puddle. a common problem with beginners is trying to weld over a previous welds slag. this causes gas inclusions (bubbles) within the weld and make it weaker.

in my not so humble opinion... i say you practice with scrap pieces similar to what you are trying to do on the bike. YOU HAVE A WELDER! if you can get an acceptable weld with a little practice, why go pay someone else to do it??? practice makes perfect.

at my current job, i often need to weld broken augers (for rock drilling) and other equipment. when we are outside on the job, the stick is the only thing that will work and it works beautifully. 7018 rod is great for horizontal joints, and with some skill can do pretty well on the horizontal and inverted welds as well. 6011 is a bit harder for beginners, but is easier to run on the vert. if we are back at the shop, and i have the option of bringing my work inside, i use the mig. it requires very clean mating surfaces but still is quicker with less labor. it does not however lay stronger welds than my same hand with the stick, although they do come out looking smooth as butter, they are NOT stronger.

small hijack - i am waiting for some aluminum rod to show up. we have an AL spool gun for the mig at work, but its terribly inconsistent. i really want to see how stick welding aluminum is. i have heard no matter what the beginning of the weld will be cold and need to be ground off, but otherwise it lays in just like steel once you get the heat into the rod and pieces. http://hildstrom.com/projects/stickaluminum/

 

cheers zookie.ive been outside practicing today.only had cuple of hrs,but had plenty of scrap to try on.i tryed welding old bits of my frame that i have cut off.i welded some together,some to metal plate.layed flat,and perpendicular.when welding from above,i got the weld to look very even.i was quite pleased with myself.when i welded 2 bits of flat metal,at 90 degrees to each other,i found it hard to get the weld even as the weld tended to drop to the piece that layed flat.i guess practice will sort this.when i welded it tilded,so the weld dropped into the middle,it looked fina again.anyways,i looked at back of metals,there was a little discolouration,but no weld on the other side.is this ok? i had 1 piece with weld on other side,but this was a piece where i had blown a hole.on the good side,even tho some of my welds looked cack,i batterd them with a lump hammer,and the worst that happened was the base metal bent!!none of them broke.i shall be geting plenty of practice in to try and make the welds look as gd as they perform.will invest in a mig aswell.i have to say i enjoy it.and thats just welding on scrap and patching things.if i could actually make something at the end of it,ile b well chuffed.

 

forgot to mention,i was using 6013 rods.i read sumwear these are quite easy to get along with as a beginner.worked fine on the bits of frame i was using too.i know its still very early days,but as im practicing,and this will obv come in handy for the future,i will sometimes b trying to practice on diff thickness of materials.is it poss to get a gd weld on metals of diff thickness? i guess u set the temp for the thinest metal,as setting for the thickest metal would pressumably blow holes in the thin stuff?

 

6013 is a good rod, but 7018 will lay much flatter and has 70,000psi rating. 6013 is nice because the puddle cools quicker so its easier to run on the vert. its commonly used as a root pass on pipe, and then overlayed with 7018. i have not used 7024 but hear that it lays out very smooth as well. there is some good visual aids on youtube (as well as some bad ones, so be careful).

for the thick to thin welds, you want to keep the heat high enough to penetrate the thicker metal, and basically run the bead more along the thicker piece while "kissing" the thin stuff with the puddle. basically, keep the high heat and concentrate the heat on the thick stuff but get some into the thin. again...practice is your best friend. also, if you have a crappy weld or a large joint that needs another pass...go for it. just remember to hammer and wire brush all of the slag out.

a lot of people like the "whip and pause" technique for the 60** rods. it makes a washboard looking but consistent and solid bead. its hard to explain, youtube has some great visuals of it.

 

Also sprach Zookie! (Thus spoke Zookie). In the hands of a pro an AC stick welder can sing like the fat lady at the opera! I've seen it done. Unfortunately not with my hands. I can stick metal together so it stays and occasionally get a nice looking bead. When it is critical for safety I pay to have it done or have a buddy who does it for a living give me a steady hand. Having a buddy who welds for a living do it for you is like having an auto mechanic work on your car for free. I prefer to pay or barter it done when possible.

If you do the fab and prep work you might be surprised how economically a shop will weld it for you. I have had several jobs done for the shop minimum charge. I also try to plan ahead and have several little jobs done at one time. Much less expensive.

Loren

 

if you get adventurous remember to unplug the tci and rectifier first

 

And the battery.

 

You embark on an ill-advised adventure.
A Pro would not weld-up a Bike frame with a Stick because the MATERIAL can't handle all that HEAT without burn-through. Leaving a hole to fix or fill.

I saw a Tradesman Welder fix a cracked frame by stick and wish he never got involved in the job.

Before the Frame was welded to his satisfaction, ... he had to wrap the adjacent area in strips of towel and have cool water applied to the toweling to prevent burn-through.

We have Members on this Site that are cheer-leaders. Urging people to attempt to do projects themselves before they access the skill level of the person and how well equipped they are for the job.

If I were you, ... I'd get it all sorted-out before doing anything.
You're trying to save some dough.
This could wind-up costing you plenty!!!

 

Guys,
Some of us might be able to do that weld in our sleep blindfolded standing upside down with both hands tied behind our back and the welder between our toes, but we should not agg someone on to do something that could be unsafe because we do not know his abilities. No offence intended Grinder
I personaly would not like to hear one of your welds failed and caused a problem. It was just a suggestion that you take it to someone who has more experience than you do and what method of welding they would or might use. Around here a small weld by a pro welder would be minimal cost. 20 to 30 USD or maybe a 6 pack of his favorite adult beverage if you brought it to them clean and ready to go.

MN

 

Welding can damage your HEALTH

 

so riddle me this RICK.... how you or anybody have welded a bike frame before a mig or tig was even invented??? for years and years the only way to weld anything was oxy/acetylene or stick!!! mig wasnt officially invented as the way we now it today until 1990.

and what makes you think the stick has too much heat? if it does maybe try TURNING DOWN THE HEAT!!! a 1/16" 7018 rod and about 15-20 amps can weld body panels with no burn through. the frames are not THAT thin.

i'd rather be a cheerleader than a naysaying pessimist.

 

hear hear,zookie, i agree with you 100%

 

Once again Zookie is spot on. See post 12 above. Thickness of the material is irrelevant as long as it's a material that can be welded AC (or DC should you have a welder with a rectifier built in). A stick welder will work fine. That's why they put the adjustment knob on the beasts. Turn the current down for the thin stuff and open her up for the I- Beam stuff.

I would not hesitate to let a pro weld my frame with my AC welder.

Loren

 

another way to go is on thinner material is you might weld a couple of centremeters and then go to the other end (cold)start again, once it gets hot, stop, go back to the other end which has cooled down and start again,at the end of the day you do need to know what you are doing,a stick welder will do just about anything you want it to , only if you can tame it. you can use a stick welder to cut through steel as well,again if you have the know how, the best advice i can pass on is to do a welding course and become friends with some welders/boilermakers.



if you now how

 

right,1st of all,i would like to thank you all for your replies and advice.
although there is a lot of contradictary advice,i take it all as good advice.ive also looked at various welding sites and it seems there is split opinion on this everywhere.at the end of the day,i am a lorry driver.yes i can get 2 pieces of metal to stick together with a stick welder,but that is as far as it goes.i have very limited experiance with welding,prob only 5 or 6 hrs actuall welding time tops.tho i am confidant that given time i could become a competent welder with both stick and mig,in all probability,competent is about as gd as i can ever hope to be.i have a job,and i have a family,so i will never be able to spend anywhere near enough time practicing/learning to ever fully understand all the concepts of welding.therefore,although i will deffo buy myself a small mig and teach myself to weld with it,i will leave the serious stuff.....(welding frames etc) to the proffesionals.or at least people who know what theyre doing.i enjoy doing it,but repairing garden tools and things around the garden will probably be my limit.once again,thanks to everyone for your input.

 

if you really want to get better quicker, take good pictures of what you are doing and post them on a welding forum. you can get a lot of good advice and pointers on how to adjust what you are doing. i self taught myself how to weld back when i was about 12, and i have made a lot of mistakes and bad habits. i still consult professionals when i can, there is always more to be learned so you can better your skills.

this thread has a lot of mig and tig, but also some pics of stick work. there are some really SEXY tig'd pieces in this thread as well, something i need to buy and learn how to do!
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=835131

 

Zookie ... you got it all right ... except for one important detail!
Experience!
Ability.
Skill. Mastery, accomplishment, competence, proficiency, dexterity, qualifications, know-how.

Having a full bag of Clubs in your garage does NOT make you a Golfer!

As for giving advice:
I'd much rather know a guy can swim before encouraging him to jump into the deep end of the pool.

 

The truth is it takes alot more skill to weld stick not everyone will be good at it practice will not necessarily make perfect but it will make you better try using smaller rods 3/32 clean the materials to get a cleaner weld use alcohol ( not beer) lacquer thinner if your repairing cracks stop drill before welding. The only way to test your skill as a welder is to try and break the weld or xray it. I have seen nice looking welds fail and but ugly welds pass this test.Keep at it.

 

Not cheering anyone here but the amount of heat required is dependent on the thickness of the material being welded. Smaller diameter rod would require less heat to weld meant for thinner material. If correctly done brazing the joints is superior to welding, you don't end up with weak points in the material at the edge of the weld. Got a oxy-acetylene torch? Braze the brackets.

 

the whole "bracket" thing is the question here, a bracket for a muffler, tail rack, side cover or fender is one thing a bracket for foot pegs, forward controls, motor mount, seat or kick stand is something else
one kind go ahead and try, the other maybe not

 

THANK YOU POLOCK!!!

i am going to continue the cheer leading a step further and say, weld your pegs, controls, motor mounts on, and before you take it on the road, TRY to break them off. if you give it an honest effort and the piece remains intact, you have a road worthy weld.

 

the first thing i tried to make with O/A never made it to the test part, it literally fell off as it cooled down

 

Use the 'belt & braces' method, bolt your work together, then weld it.

 

so...to summarise.....
we have gone from...by all means learn to weld,but dont weld yr bike,leave it to someone who knows what he is doing(probably the best advice of all),to dont stick weld yr bike,but mig is ok,too stick weld is ok if!!! u know what yr doing,to make yr brackets,get the joints ready and get a pro to weld them up and to yr bike,to make yr brackets etc yourself,(but not footpeg brackets,forward controls or exhaust mounts etc etc)then get a welder to weld them to bike,and finally make everything yrself,weld them to the frame,then batter them with a hammer.if they dont fall off,all is ok................im a little more confused than i was to start with,but at the same time feel a little more knowledgeable......now,i could start this post over,and see what advice comes my way 2nd time around....orrrrrr,i could ask what peoples opinions are on sticking bikes together using nothing but chemical metal,blue tack and double sided gaffer tape.lol.after all......mz did glue a bike frame together!!!

 

Amen to that.