The machine is winning, dammit. (brake bleeding)

So, from the top:

I've just rebuilt my front brake calipers. I ran into an issue or two, but everything is back together, and now I'm bleeding the brakes.

Problem: The brakes aren't bleeding.

No matter how many times I pull the lever, it doesn't build pressure. I started with the manual method of pumping the lever a number of times, holding the lever down, then cracking a bleeder screw, and closing the bleeder screw before letting the lever back up and starting again.

The lever never became harder to pump. I started with 5+a crack, then 10, then 20, then 30, and so on up to 90 pumps between cracks of the lower right-hand bleeder valve (i.e., the one on the caliper, not the anti-dive unit). I checked to make sure all brake lines were torqued appropriately, and that all other bleeder valves were shut.

I then repeated this. No fluid came out of the bleeder valves. The reservoir is full of fluid, and the level, as measured by q-tip, did not change.

I then purchased a one-man bleeder kit. I assembled the kit, hooked it up to the lowest bleeder valve, and pumped the lever for 15 minutes or so. No change in lever pressure, no fluid came from bleeder valve.

I then filled the bleeder catch-can with a little clean brake fluid. Fluid moved from the catch-can towards the caliper, but this didn't seem to be a particularly effective way to work.

Attempted bleeding from top banjo bolt. No sounds of air escaping, no liquid after 6-7 groups of 10 lever pulls.

I then rented a brake bleeder tool from advance auto parts ($59.99+tax, refundable on return!). I set it to "vacuum" (after double-checking), and did my best to get a tight seal on the bleeder valve. After 100+ pumps of the handle, I noticed that nothing was really happening.

I then attempted to bleed from the banjo bolts again. 4-5 groups of 10 lever pulls. No liquid, no pressure sounds, no increase in lever pull difficulty.

I then tried bleeding manually with the bleeder valves again, but _this time_ I got some air out of them (tiny "fssst." sounds). Some air came out of the bleeder valves for 3-4 rounds (groups of 10 lever pulls), and then stopped.

***

The machine is winning. I hate when the machine wins. I've been told that some people have issues with blockage in the master cylinder relief port. There are no geysers of fluid coming from the reservoir when I pull the lever; does this indicate that the relief port is clear?

How do I get the damn thing off to check? There are two bolts that clearly fix the master cylinder and reservoir to the bike, but there are two large black pieces of metal that prevent me from either removing it or from finding the 3rd bolt I need to undo.

It's getting ridiculous down here, and I hate that such a simple task is defeating me. Yes, it just snowed three inches. No, I couldn't ride tomorrow if I wanted to.

It's the principle of the thing.

I feel like I'm lacking some sort of fundamental understanding of what's going on, or maybe you guys could just beat it into me some more. What's going on? What do I do from here?

 

Keep at it.

That's the only advice I can give; the vacuum bleeder will help you fill the system, but getting these brakes fully bled (and my 550s have a single caliper) is a grade-A double-D PAIN in the you know whatski.

Do this: Be sure the reservoir is full, pull the lever to the bar, and tape/bungie/tie it there.

Give up for the day (or night.) Have a beer or nine. See where you're at tomorrow. (You'll be surprised.)

 

It's always a pain to get the fluid through after a rebuild, I tape a piece of plastic tube (that will fit tight on the bleed nipple) into the nozzle of the shop vac & let it rip, just keep an eye on the fluid level.

 

take the wheel nipples out and put a few wraps of teflon tape on the threads, don't cover the holes on the pointy end and make sure they are open. tie the lever back, now use the bleeder tool.
you won't get any geysers until the system has fluid in it and can build pressure

 

What's the status of your Master Cylinder? If its the original its overdue for a rebuild kit.

 

Before you commence Bleeding, ... you should determine how well the Master Cylinder is preforming.

Level the Master.
Fill it up ... half-way.
Work the Brake Lever and make an observation.

IF, ... Brake Fluid is "Fountain-ing" (Squirting-up like a miniature Old Faithful) from the Cylinder Replenishment Port ... the Master Cylinder is FAILING to PUMP and needs New Seals.

There are two Seals.
A PRESSURE Seal and a Secondary Seal that keeps the Fluid IN the Cylinder.
IF the Pressure (Main) Seal is worn-out, ... The Main Seal fails to Pump Fluid out and down to the Caliper.

The Secondary Seal applies Pressure to the Fluid NOT moved by the Main Seal and the resulting Pressure forces Fluid OUT the Replenishment Port.

Rebuilding the MC will return Hydraulic Pressure and let you get the System Bled.

Kits for XJ-Bike Master Cyls have all New Internal Parts included.

 

or wait an hour after the 9th beer and try again. should prove to be successful.

 

I have a 750RH with the hidden, REMOTE Master, and got Sage advise here years ago.

.first, buy 3' of 5/16 (I think, or 3/8) clear tube, and a small funnel.
Remove fill screw, push tubing around fill hole, suspend funnel 3' above handlebars, fill funnel.

Second, get 20' of 1/4" tube, a pickle jar and 5 MINUTE Epoxy, cut 3' of line, epoxy both ends into empty jar.

Now, hook 17' hose to a running car VAC port, hook 3' hose from jar to bleed screw, bleed almost instantly using the stacked pressure above the Master, and about TEN POUNDS of vacuum, keep fluid in the funnel.

I actually have a picture of this somewhere.

This would work even if the Master needed a re-build.

 

You may have done this, but are you sure your banjo bolts are clean? When I did my 31 year old system they were all gunked up and cleaning just on the outside wasn't gonna get it. I let them soak in solvent for two days and poked them clean with wire to be sure. Hoses new and not clogged? There has to be something blocking you up.

+1 to the MC rebuild if it's original it's toast. Mine was.

Oh and do take the advice with respect to the machine winning. You will overcome this issue, you can do it even if it takes time and is hard. Take that step back if needed and regroup-drink that brewski and go play in the snow if it helps. Try something you haven't before when you return to it. It can be done.

 

When I done mine from a empty state, I use a syringe with a hose attached to the bleeder screwat the caliper (lowest point) and I pushed the fluid up through the hoses into the master cylinder. Once I had enough fluid in the MC, I then began the bleeding process. It went pretty quick doing it that way, pushing all the air up through the system. Don't let it beat you and don't beat yourself up over it. You will get it!! Just be persistant and it may always look different after some time away from it once you have cleared your thoughts.

 

Having gone through this THREE times now (one of my bikes had a two-stage brake rebuild) I really think the key is TIME. Once the system is filled, tying the lever back to the bar and walking away from it overnight seems to work better than it should in getting it a lot closer.

My theory is the rough machining on the inside of the caliper bore traps "micro" bubbles that take their sweet time floating together and working their way out.

However, if you haven't rebuilt your M/C yet, you need to do so. The seals in the master cylinder had the same recommended life span as the caliper seals-- TWO years. Granted that's a bit crazy-conservative; but 30 years is way beyond any designed-in margin of safety. A master with hard seals won't bleed properly, period.

 

Just making sure everyone knows that he's dealing with the PITA master, not a bar mount.

I have a 750RH with the hidden, REMOTE Master, and got Sage advise here years ago. . .
8)

 

What you are dealing with is an extremely long time of neglect.

All that nasty gunk that you cleaned out of your calipers when you rebuilt them is spread throughout the entire brake system. You can not touch one part without affecting the rest of the system.

To complete the job you will need all new, or rebuilt parts
Banjo bolts
Crush washers
Lines (SS prefered)
Rebuilt Master cylinder
Cleaned out brake line union joint.
Bleeder screws

If you have never had hydralic brakes fail while exiting the highway at 65 mph, and starting at the taillights of a car sitting at the traffic light at the end of the ramp.
Count your blessings. I HAVE!!!

I have no clue how I missed the car. Ran straight through the intersection, and back up to the top of the entrance ramp before the truck coasted to a stop.
Then WALKED away.

Brakes are no joke, If you can't stop. Your DEAD!!

My apologies if this seems harsh. The truth is in the line above. I would rather talk with you. Than talk about you!

Do the complete system, do it right, and Do It Once!

Ghost

 

The Brake Master Cylinder is a Hydraulic PUMP.
It's supposed to PUMP Brake Fluid.

When you open a Caliper Bleeder and Pull the Brake Lever; Brake Fluid should be forced out of the Master Cylinder and out-and-down through the Lines until it exits the Open Bleeder.

The Tried and True Method for Bleeding Brakes is to attach a Hose to the Caliper Bleed Nipple and submerge its open end in a container of Brake Fluid.
Any AIR trapped in the System is pushed-out the Hose and rises so that only Brake Fluid is present at the Bleeder when the Bleeder is Closed to redevelop Hydraulic Pressure.

IF, you attach a Hose to the Bleeder and PUMP the Brake Lever, ... you should observe the FLUID (and any Air Bubbles) ... Moving OUT toward the Container.
() ⬅ ⬅ ⬅ OO ⬅ ⬅ ⬅ ::: Moving in ONE Direction.

If the Fluid rebounds. The MASTER has Failed:
() ⇐ ⇄ ⇐ OO ⇒ ⇔ ⇔ ::: Fluid or Bubbles retreating; Bad seal.

 

All these tips on how to bleed are all very good, some ingenius, some cost a bit of money, but the way to do it without any tubes or syringes or Miti-vacs or owt else apart from your fingers and thumbs is this;
starting with a newly rebuilt M/C, fill the reservoir with fluid, pull on the lever but don't release, then put your finger or thumb over the banjo bolt hole then release the lever and you should hear a sucking or pooping sound, repeat this procedure a few times quickly and very soon fluid will start to come out of the hole, once this starts attatch the brake hose then repeat the above procedure but at the bottom end of the hose before you attatch it to the caliper, once fluid comes out attatch the hose to the caliper then remove the bleed nipple completely and put your finger or thumb over the hole and pump the lever quickly as before taking your digit away from the hole and listening for the popping or sucking sound, soon enough fluid will be in the caliper and you can then bleed away to your hearts content. Works for me every time.

 

One of the oldest tools in my tool-chest is the classic "One Man Bleeder Hose".
The device is as basic as can be.
A length of hose connected to a two-part barrel -- one way -- check valve.
(A spring-loaded Ball Bearing check-valve)

This "One-man Bleeder" ... will do the trick ... one man style; but I usually have someone do the squeezing of the Brake Lever to get thing done without needing to be a contortionist.

I wrap the Bleed Nipple with Teflon Tape to make an Air-tight fitment in the Threaded port.
Slip on an 8mm Box Wrench
Connect the Hose to the Bleed Nipple
Run the Check Valve to a Jar where its is submerged in Brake Fluid.

Assistant Pumps-up Hydraulic Pressure working Brake Lever.
Releases Lever.
Bleed Nipple is OPENED
Brake Lever Pulled tight to Handlebar Pumping Fluid or Air to Check Valve.
Brake Bleed Nipple CLOSED.
::: Repeat :::
Once Brake Fluid fills the Hose ...
The Bleed Nipple can remain OPEN and the Brake Lever PUMPED.

http://www.toolking.com/alltrade-648400 ... eeder-hose

 

What that is, is basically a "remote-mount," detachable "speed bleeder."

http://www.speedbleeder.com/

Which, like your DIY version, only works once the system is full and you're just getting the final bubbles out. Any spring-loaded check-ball system requires some fluid pressure to work.

OP is struggling with just trying to get the system full enough to see any pressure anywhere.

 

Which is why a continuous vacuum from an idling car engine and a full reservoir works wonders. The pressure is supplied by the atmosphere.

 

Speed Bleeders aren't something I'd ever recommend.

Across the whole spectrum of Automotive Forums, ... Speed Bleeders are proving to be much more trouble than they are worth.

Leaks, loosening, and breaking-off during use are at the top of the list.

 

Yep. Good description there.

Nearly went out of my mind trying to do the rear brake and a car mechanic friend sorted it out in about five minutes doing it as you've described.

 

Oh my god, this is going to save me.

I tied the handle back and cracked a bleeder valve overnight. Didn't help.

So I re-read this, and started with the hard line from the reservoir going into the union and IT WASN'T EVEN FULL OF FLUID YET [profanity of choice here].

I capped the union end of the line off with my thumb, gave it a couple squeezes, and blam, fluid everywhere. So the master cylinder is good. It's dinnertime, but I'm going to do the brake line, then the caliper, then the anti-dive unit tomorrow. And then I guess I'm going to check the other side to make sure it's full too.

Mother of god, this sucks, hahaha.

Figures that I'd start with the most infuriating job on this bike.

 

Wet-setting floats is (or can be) even more frustrating, honest.

 

Truth.

 

So, that's the ballgame, folks.

FJ111200 and Shannonside save the day and my sanity with that trick. For those folks who may someday find this post on the internet:

1) Fill master brake reservoir. In the case of the XJ750RJ, you can use the fill port on the side without bothering with the two really irritating screws that hold the cap in place. Medium-sized hex wrench undoes the fill cap.

2) There's a hard line that goes from the master cylinder to what Yamaha calls the FRONT BRAKE DISTRIBUTOR UNION. Unscrew the hard line, put your thumb over it, and pump the brake handle until you feel pressure.

3) With the handle squeezed, remove thumb/finger from hard line. Listen for "pssst" sound of escaping air.

4) Repeat until escaping air is replaced with escaping brake fluid. Then repeat once or twice more.

5) Go from master brake reservoir down the right side of the bike and repeat. First hard line, then banjo bolt at the caliper, then bleeder valve (remove the bleeder screw entirely and just put your finger there).

Interestingly, the anti-dive units and the left side (from the rider's perspective) of the bike presented no issues once the right side was bled. YMMV.

My bike now stops. I'm going riding tomorrow, I think. Thank you!

 

Glad you found it useful.
All the gizmo's in the world don't compensate for what you've already got in your hands.
:idea:

 

I tried FJ111200's solution and it worked instantly! I tried many things but simply putting my finger over the hole and pumping once or twice was enough to get the fluid to come out. I was back on my bike this afternoon after struggling with it for over a week!

 

Great stuff. You'll never forget this trick.
All the tricks in the book and the easiest one works.
Miti vac, syringes, easy bleeds, etc etc :lol: :lol:
this should be put up in " the best tricks dept"
Thank you :idea: :roll:

 

Agreed! I used this method today as well and had my newly rebuild master cylinder, new stainless lines, and rebuild calipers full of fluid and bleed in no time flat. Thank you!