This is ridiculous... (hard starting)

I've read several of the threads on hard starting. At Barber this year, we picked up a Cycle World magazine from 1984. It has a review of the then new FJ600 and it even mentions hard starting and lengthy warm ups.

I've never seen another bike this cold natured or difficult to start when not used regularly.

Bike is a 1985 FJ600. I'd say it's in good tune.

-The battery was new this year and I have a trickle charger that I move from bike to bike in the garage.

-The carbs were gone through a few years ago when we got the bike and synched. They were cleaned again this year (not sure if the shop synched them or not).

-The valves were adjusted a few years ago when we first got the bike.

The bike isn't ridden regularly and simply will not start if left to sit. We have to resort to starter fluid or push starting the bike.
There HAS to be a better way to get this thing to start. If used regularly, it will start but is still very cold natured until warm.

Should I check the carb sync again? Would the valve adjustment cause this (the bike sounds fine and runs good once under way).
Ideas?

 

if fuel is the problem. first make sure the choke plungers ect are working properly i am not sure what type carbs are on it . on some the choke pulls off a tube that goes to the bottom of the float bowl most people do not chean where the tube sits in the bowl but that needs to be clean or the choke will not work properly most just clean the bowl but not the passage in the bowl that goes to the tube. next early to mid 80s were very cold blooded so they would pass the sniffer test for emmisions. simple cure for this is replace the low speed jets with a size or 2 bigger and shim the needles up a little i have done this on alout of bikes most you dont even needs the choke anymore but this was in the fl heat just makes things alout easier on the starter motor. Suzukis were really bad about it they were so lean in that era they wouldnt run or even start without the airbox on them

 

Remember if you haven't done a plug chop and set your mixture up, these things were factory set pretty freakin' lean

 

If you are running 'R' plugs & 'R' caps, dump them both.

 

if it won't start with the starter but push starts the battery might be weak
give it a jump with a car or try some starter fluid in the air box
if you have to crank it more than 5 seconds, somethings not right

 

The other thing I heard was service intervals measured by approximate time, not mileage. "A few years ago" can mean a lot; these bikes do require regular maintenance to remain turn-key reliable.

How many MILES since the valve adjustment? It's a 5000-mile service interval after the initial 3000-mile check.

How many MILES since the carbs were done?

How many MILES on the bike overall?

How long is it sitting between being ridden that it won't start?

Do you use a fuel stabilizer?

Answers to the above will help.

 

1) I'd have to dig up the records to check, but I'd say it's less than the 5,000 mile interval

2) Less than 1,000 miles since carbs were cleaned (earlier this year). Again, I don't know if the shop sync'ed them again or not.

3) 30,168 miles on the bike. It was purchased from the original owner and has service records. It was well cared for all it's life.

4) This last go 'round, she let it sit for ~4 or 5 weeks.

5) Yes, we use a fuel stabilizer in the Winter. I also ran some SeaFoam through the bike when the carbs were cleaned a few months ago.

Again, the bike starts much, MUCH easier when used regularly. Still cold natured, but easier to start. It's when left to sit for extended periods that this happens.

The battery was new this year and turns the bike over very quickly and strongly....and over and over and over and over and over. It just won't start. It may try...cough and sputter, but not start or stay running.

 

Here's how I try to start it (I've told the GF, but not sure she always follows instructions):

1) Petcock to "Prime" until I see fuel go through the hose and filter (Yes, the filter is new, clean and installed in the proper direction for flow).

2) Turn choke to full "ON". The bike has two positions for choke. I can visually verify that the cable is moving the lever mechanism on the carbs. Plus, when it DOES start, the choke works and keeps idle high.

3) Key "ON", kill switch "ON", hit starter button.

I also try do do this with the bike on the centerstand so all four carbs are level and bowls are full.

I've pulled the plugs before, but maybe I'll change them. I've verified that I'm getting spark, as well.
The wires/caps are original, as are the coils. Maybe I should trim the wires and install new caps and plugs?
What are you guys using for replacement coils/wires/caps and plugs?

 

ANY carbureted vehicle will have a hard time starting when sat for extended periods. gas has a tendency to vaporize into the atmosphere in the form of raw unburnt fumes, unfortunately. extended cranking will be required to get gas flowing again.

i use breif squirts of starting fluid on my 74 ford to make the engine run untill the carb kicks in. keeps the cranking down to a minimum and saves on the starter. truck only gets used 4 times a year.

as long as your geting spark on all 4. then the igintion system is working. if it's not broke then don't fix it. but new plugs probably wouldn't hurt.

 

Just some FYI:

After getting the bike started yesterday, I rode it around a ~5 mile loop and really wound it out. Parked it and started it two more times last night, just to see what she'd do.
Went out today to go for a ride and....you guessed it, no start. The starter button wouldn't do it, so I pushed her to the top of the driveway and tried bumpstarting her in 2nd gear. No luck. I had it on the side stand and hit the button a couple more times and, suddenly, VROOM! She fires right up!

I'm not talking about firing, stuttering, rough idle or anything. When she fired, she caught immediately after hitting the button and settled into a nice idle. Rode fine all morning. Started instantly at every stop.

I checked the battery voltage when we got home and got 13.8V as soon as we parked the bike. The charging system seems to be working and the battery seems to be taking a charge.

I'm gonna talk to a buddy of mine about helping me do a valve adjustment and carb sync.

 

You need to do two things before you have any TUNING done.

Check the STARTER BRUSHES.
CLEAN the Starter's Electrical-end of all Carbon Dust.

Undo the Battery
Pull the Starter.

Get a look at the BRUSHES.
They might need to be replaced.

Clean-out the Electrical end.
Pour some Isopro-Alcohol into a Squeeze-trigger Bottle.
Shoot the Electrical-end until what drips-out is a clean as what you are spraying-on.

Hit the Starter Commutator HEAVY.
Spray ALL the dust out.

That ought to give you your Starter back.

COLD weather is upon us.

Cold-blooded XJ Bikes need:
New Plugs
Charged or Tended Batteries
Carbs that have Enrichment Circuits healthy.

Otherwise, ... Get some Starting Fluid.

 

Just a hunch: check the battery voltage before you try to start it the next time.

Your symptoms sound like a soggy battery; especially the spinning the motor but no fire scenario.

I wonder if you have an electrical issue that's slowly draining the battery; or even though new, the battery isn't happy. When was the last time you checked the water levels?

 

what about leaking float needles? letting fuel into the cylinders while its sitting causing a rich mixture and no start? my 2 cents here

 

All of these are good suggestions. One reason I checked the battery voltage yesterday was so I could get a baseline.

Let me clarify though: We definitely had a bad/low battery last year and this Spring, but the new one sounds and acts much stronger. I could actually kill the old battery trying to start it. This battery won't go dead, it just won't start the bike.

Is there a thread with pics and a "how to" on the starter brushes?

I pulled the records this morning. We have 3,836 miles since the last valve adjustment.

Apsolus, the bike has a vacuum petcock that is functioning properly. It's possible that the fuel in the bowls is leaking away or even evaporating, but there's no indication that fuel from the tank is filling the cylinders.

 

Battery check:

I checked the FJ and my CB500 yesterday after a long ride, then again this morning. Here are the results.

After ride:
FJ - 13.87V
CB - 13.47V

This morning:
FJ- 12.78V
CB- 12.49V

That tells me that the battery is healthy and probably better than the one in my CB!

 

that's a good start but you need the voltage under load, check them again while cranking
the difference between cranking and pushing is the load the starter puts on the electrical system other than that everythings the same

 

it's possible the floats are set lean. OR, as pollock suggests. not enough cranking voltage to supply spark.

 

You can't get an accurate evaluation of the Battery by measuring the Volts.

You can measure a Smoke Detector Battery and find 9.5 Volts.

You need to know the Amps it's capable of delivering.

AutoZone has a free Test to measure Cranking Amps.

Bring-in a Charged Battery and they will measure it's Amp's Output.

When the temperature drops; the XJ gets tough to Start.
The Battery is affected by the ambient temperature.
The Engine gets Cold.
The Fuel is cold.

Sometimes, even a Bike that is quite well Fine Tuned will resist starting Dead Cold.

A Trick is to RUN a length of Windshield Washer Hose into the Air Box.
Secure the Hose conveniently along the Seat Rail.

Shoot a shot or two of Starting Fluid into the Air Box and get the Engine to fire-up.
Let it warm-up on the Enrichment for :45 -to- 1:00 to let the Engine begin to warm-um.
(It may take longer if its real cold)

 

it could be the battery but if it cranks and cranks without slowing down and having to put a charger on it its probably not the problem but dont rule out anything. it cranked just as hard with the other battery right? check it for a vacuum leak first seals could be bad on the throttle shafts boots could be cracked. do a wet check on the float level if its just a little to low will have a hard time sucking fuel up when cranking especially if shaft seals are bad. But like i said earlier if the motorcycle magazines even complain on how cold blooded they are i think changing the idle jets will do wonders if everything else is right done it to many bikes in the 80s did wonders made them much more user friendly

 

"(not sure if the shop synched them or not)."

BINGO!!

 

Two quick questions:

1)The mixture screws are the ones at the front of the carbs, engine side, on top...right? I have some diagrams, but they don't list this part. I think it had an EPA plug in them originally.

2) What is the preferred setting for this screw?

 

Old School:
To the Highest IDLE without causing Rich Misfire.

New School:
To a Blue-colored Burn using a ColorTune Plug to view the Combustion.

Consensus:
To that point ... within a few DEGREES ... that causes the Spark Plug's Center Ceramic Shroud to become DARK Brown from Incomplete Combustion of Fuel.

The IDEAL Mixture is PURPOSEFULLY Set --> "Slightly RICH"

 

Um, thanks....but I was looking more for a "bottom them out gently and then out 2.5 turns" kind of thing.
I don't have a color tune tool. Is there a starting point setting?

 

Scott,
The 2.5 Turns kind of thing is only 1 step of many to tuning the carbs to where the bike runs great.
If you would like you can borrow my color tune. Its a 14mm.
Just pay the shipping from 74105.

 

2.5 Turns Out.
Factory Pre-set.
Bikes shipped to Dealers at 2.5 to conform to EPA Regs.

2.75 ~ 3.0
Dealerships Adjust NEW BIKES returned for Warranty Service before 1000 Miles.
Some Bikes get EGA Machine Set
Many do not.
Anti-tamper Plugs Removed and Replaced at Dealership.

Carbs with Plugs Removed
Unknown.
Ownership Settings "Free-for-all"

ColorTune Era:
+ 3.0 Turns Out
Owner Tuned Bike

20 Year Old Bikes + Up
Set according to Condition of Engine.

Fine Tuning "Window"
Once the IDLE Mixture is "Found" ... by ColorTuning or Plug Inspection for Coloration, ...
The IDEAL Mixture will be within a Very Small increment of adjustment.
From too LEAN -to- too RICH may ONLY require the Movement of the Mixture Screw within a window of LESS than 1/4 Turn.

...................||<ooo000OOOO>||XXXXXXXX->Open
.Closed<<<<||<Adjustment.>>||XXXXXXXX->Wide-Open
___________||▁▃▃▅▅▇▇██||X -to- O = 90° Max.