Valve shims - can't get them out

This is my first time for a valve adjustment on my 1982 XJ650J Maxim. I pulled the valve cover last night and tried the Motion Pro #08-0020. When I follow the procedure, it seems to catch 100% of the time, but I still can't actually remove the shim. I can insert a screwdriver and get the edge near the slot to pop up, but it only comes ~1/2 way out of the bucket. Do I just need to pry harder, or are there any other tips for shim removal?

I found this video (ignore the magnet), which says that "sometimes it can be a b**ch" to get the shims out.



Any tricks?

Thanks all!

 

use a junk feeler gauge to slide under shim. the magnet makes it glide out

DO NOT TURN MOTOR OVER LIKE HE IS DOING

the motion pro tool has to be reworked to work properly most times
this is how we do it
AIRHEAD VALVE ADJUSTMENT with Pics

AIRHEAD VALVE ADJUSTMENT Part 2: The Tool vs. ZipTie -w/pics


recheck shims after all have been replaced rotate motor several times

 

I have been hearing a lot of issue with the tool as of lately. I have never encountered any issues, other than not properly aligning the tool correctly. Just make sure that the point only presses on the bucket. I have had it resting on the seam of the bucket and shim a time or two. That can cause the shim to be pinched and not able to be removed. Also, make sure you rotate the cam a complete 180* from the bucket/shim. Any less and it could interfere with removing the shim.

 

I have used the tool with fine success as well, I think most guys prefer the wire/zip tie method because it doesn't require an extra tool and you can probably get much more efficient with it than you ever could with the tool.

Anyway, I use a screw driver that is thin and narrow, enough that the head actually fits entirely in the notch on the bucket. Once I get the shim popped up a little I get the screwdriver underneath and rotate it to pop the shim up more. Then I use a pair of forceps that I have to pull the shim out.

 

This.

 

I use a magnetic shim retrieval tool, just like the FSM says to. Makes it easy.

 

This would probably be my choice as well had the kids not walked off with mine, never to be heard from again.

 

Most hardware stores have them. I got mine for $6.99. It even has a fancy plastic handle.
(It's just a magnet on a telescoping stick).

 

Thank you all!!!! I got it!

The valve shim tool was working just as it was supposed to. It was the screwdriver that wasn't. I came across a particularly stubborn shim that would not pop out of the bucket.

My tiny screwdriver had a 3/8" diameter handle which wasn't enough for me to turn and pop the shim out. I was trying to use the 'rim' of the head as a fulcrum, but not enough leverage was being developed. I used another screwdriver as a fulcrum, placed just outboard of the bucket, on the surface of the head. This worked, but I surely need to get some small screwdrivers that I can insert and TWIST!

I did use my newly purchased forceps to retrieve the shims, which worked like a charm.

Now I have a map of all my valve shims, and will be able to get new shims to open up the clearance.

A bit of (what I think is) good news - all the shims were between 270-285. That's on the high end of the chart, so I have a ways to go until I run off the 'thin' end of the chart.

Thanks again for the help!!!

 

Yeah, I'm just a cheap bastard, and I know as soon as I buy one, the old ones will turn up.

 

That's a law of nature.

 

A good old pair of hemostats are your friend....

 

Nice timing on the question. I've been trying to get the shims out for about hour now because I forgot to get a magnetic tool. Finally decided to set it aside until I can get out later for the tool. Glad things worked out for you. The shims can definitely be a bit tricky to get out. Hopefully we will both get better with practice.

 

Hey Lightcs1776, I hope your valve adjustment worked out.

I have a follow-up question. I finally got around to reconnecting the fuel lines and starting the bike up. Goal was to check fuel level in float bowls, and sync carbs.

However, I found there to be a lot of clickity-clacking going on. I know that a quiet valve train is one that's approaching a burned valve, but how much clacking should there be?

 

I have been told that it should sound like an old Singer sewing machine, more clickity or ticka ticka. If it is clacking loudly, that might be an issue. Any chance you could post a video of it running?

 

I will try to get a video this evening.

For what it's worth, before the valve adjustment, the valve train was whisper quiet. The clearances were on the tight end of the spec, with some slightly under spec.

I did check the clearances after the valve adjustment, and they all were on the loose end of the spec (which is what I was shooting for). One of them didn't loosen up as much as I anticipated, but still in-spec so I figured I'd button it up and see how it goes.

Stay tuned for the video.

 

For these bikes, quiet is bad (within reason), and in spec is in spec. Just to be sure, you are within the specs below, correct? You don't have room to play within them as the valves come in sizes 5 mm apart, e.g. 265 > 260, etc., at least as far as I have seen.

Intake: 0.11mm - 0.15mm ( = 0.004" - 0.006")
Exhaust: 0.16mm - 0.20mm (= 0.006" - 0.008")

I'm sure you are OK, I know I am hyper sensitive to any changes in the way the bike sounds or runs, especially after I have monkeyed with something.

 

Correct - those are the spec's I used. I wrote it all down (clearance before, old shim, new shim, new clearance) and will check that when I get home.

From what I recall, the intakes were mostly at .004" so I bumped them down a size. The exhaust's were .004-.006", so some got bumped down 1 shim size, and some 2 sizes down.

 

i found when i tried to get under the shim it tilted and got stuck. A magnet tilted it the same way. but a quick puff of air at 60 psi sent it flying. plug up the cam chain tunnel and get all the oil out of the way first

 

Valve clearances are all checked, thanks.

 

Some of the 650 and 750 engines had an issue with the far right cam caps that caused a tapping noise due to increased end-play. The tapping causes no harm. So if you're hearing a tap from that area (in addition to the normal valve noise) then don't be concerned.

 

Thanks for sharing that info. I will get my mechanic's stethoscope out and see if I can pinpoint the location of the noise. I didn't pay any special attention to the cam cap when I had the valve cover off. I reused the valve cover gasket, and applied new RTV to the right side cam plug region.

 

What do you think? It sounds like the shim is lifting up and fluttering around.

 

Here's another video after it warmed up a bit.

 

It's difficult to tell with you revving the engine, but it all sounds normal. You do have the cam-endplay tap.

A running synch might be needed.

 

Kapn, where in Wisconsin are you?

 

Okay, thanks for giving it a listen. Does the cam end-play relate to the position of the cam end plug on the gasket? If I pushed them in and resealed them, would it reduce the play?

I am in Madison.

 

I intend to do that. Here is what my plan looks like for the engine:

• Carb clean ✓
• Valve adjustment ✓ (I guess we'll call it done if the ticking is ok)
• Carb float level
• Carb sync
• Idle mixture adjustment
• Repeat carb sync and idle mixture adjustment if necessary

I checked the float levels last night, and they look more like 5-8mm than the 3mm which they are supposed to be. Looks like I'll be pulling the carbs again.

 

Do the idle mixture adjustment before the carb synch.

 

the problem with magnets is that they can slightly magnetize anything they touch. this can cause the shims to attract filings in the oil and gradually wear on the cam lobes and the bucket
seats where the shims sit. Use the bent zip tie method to keep the valves open and you will have plenty of room to get the shims out. Also get a set of those plastic valve shim place
holders from chacal.

 

The shims are not made of the sort of steel that is easily magnetized. It literally takes several minutes of rubbing them on a magnet to get that job done, and just a single sharp impact ( like a drop to the floor) to demagnetize them. This is why the factory service manual reccomends using a magnet to retrieve the shims from the buckets.

 

I got derailed by life for a bit but I'm back at it and hope to give it a closer look this weekend. I wanted to post up the valve shim changes which I performed.

Exhaust (spec: .006-.008")
Valve: EX1 EX2 EX3 EX4
Old Clearance: .004 .004 .005 .004
Old Shim: 280 275 270 275
New Shim: 270 265 265 265
New Clearance: .008 .008 .008/tight_.009 .006

Intake (spec: .004-.006")
Valve: IN1 IN2 IN3 IN4
Old Clearance: .004 .004 .004 .004
Old Shim: 280 285 280 280
New Shim: 275 280 275 275
New Clearance: .004 .006 .006 .005

The "new clearance" was measured after turning the motor over with the starter a few times. Some of them didn't change as much as I expected. For example, I changed the EX4 shim by .004", yet the measured clearance only changed by .002". The IN4 shim was reduced by .002", but the measured clearance only changed by .001". In retrospect, I should have measured/verified the shim thicknesses to remove any doubt of that.

Is there anything that is off that I'm missing, or anything which you think I should go back in and change?

Thanks so much!

 

It would be helpful for all parties (yourself included) if you utilized the metric measurements for clearance. This makes the math easier, as the shims are numbered by their metric sizes...

 

Does this help? ---

I got derailed by life for a bit but I'm back at it and hope to give it a closer look this weekend. I wanted to post up the valve shim changes which I performed.

Exhaust (spec: 0.16mm - 0.20mm)
Valve: EX1 EX2 EX3 EX4
Old Clearance [mm]: .10 .10 .13 .10
Old Shim: 280 275 270 275
New Shim: 270 265 265 265
New Clearance [mm]: .20 .20 .20/tight_.23 .15

Intake (0.11mm - 0.15mm)
Valve: IN1 IN2 IN3 IN4
Old Clearance [mm]: .10 .10 .10 .10
Old Shim: 280 285 280 280
New Shim: 275 280 275 275
New Clearance [mm]: .10 .15 .15 .13

The "new clearance" was measured after turning the motor over with the starter a few times. Some of them didn't change as much as I expected. For example, I changed the EX4 shim by .10mm, yet the measured clearance only changed by .05mm. The IN4 shim was reduced by .05mm, but the measured clearance only changed by .025mm. In retrospect, I should have measured/verified the shim thicknesses to remove any doubt of that.

Is there anything that is off that I'm missing, or anything which you think I should go back in and change?

Thanks so much!

 

Something is wrong. Your replacement shim size calculations are correct, not sure why your clearances aren't what they should be. Could be a measurement error (either before or after) or the new shims haven't seated fully or the new shims are marked wrong.......also, what is the measurement on EX3 (.20/tight _.23 ??) and EX4 seems to have an issue.........

 

Agreed with what @chacal had to say...could there be excess oil or some other substance taking up space under the shims/buckets to throw off your measurements?

 

I agree - could be measurement error. I was also wondering if it could take a while for the new shims to seat. I did turn the engine over with the starter prior to making the 'after' measurements. But I have run it since (in the clicking valve video), so I could take the cover off again to confirm the measurements.

What I meant by this is that the .23mm feeler gauge was a tight fit. I had to stuff it in, and there was a fair amount of drag. If the feeler gauges were go/no-go gauges, I would consider .20mm a 'go' and .23mm a 'no-go'. But the actual clearance is probably closer to .23mm than .20mm.

I can pull the valve cover again and verify the measurements. I was concerned that some crud could be trapped between the shim and the bucket, but you can't really get down there to inspect or clean without removing the cams.

 

Verify your measurements in metric. Don't bother telling us what's to tight, won't fit, sloppy, etc..... Just tells what the clearance is ( with very slight drag), and current shim size.

I'm also wondering if you inadvertently put some original shims back in w/o swapping--- wouldn't be the first time that happened.

Also, stop trying to adjust to specific numbers..... In spec is in spec, out of spec is out of spec. That's why there is a RANGE. Too many people are anal about specific numbers/making them all the same/etc.... Each valve will wear slightly different, so don't bother trying to do that-----

 

I get what you're saying. The spec ranges are 0.04mm 'wide' and the shims go in 0.05mm increments, so there is only one correct shim.

I have these feeler gauges:

.10 mm
.13 mm
.15 mm
.18 mm
.20 mm
.23 mm

So just to clarify:

• For the exhaust which has a spec of 0.16mm - 0.20mm, one or both of the following gauges should fit: .18mm or .20mm. The .23mm gauge should NOT fit.
  
• For the intake which has a spec of 0.11mm - 0.15mm, one or both of the following gauges should fit: .13mm or .15mm. The .18mm gauge should NOT fit.
• If the feeler gauge goes in, but has more than light drag, it does not 'fit'.

 

You need to get a proper set of feeler gauges. Get a KD 2274. If a local parts store doesn't have it, they can most likely get it or order it off ebay. You can't be accurate if you don't have the proper tools.

 

Get the exact measurements, PLEASE. Otherwise, we cant/wont help. We'd only be guessing, too.

No, there's NOT just one shim that will fit. A too-fat shim will fit, but the cam will ride it the whole time and you'll have low/no compression. If you get Waaay to fat, you'll have valve/piston interference. Any thinner shims will fit, but you'll go out of spec and end up with valve not opening soon enough/long enough.

We need your exact clearance so we know whether to go down 1 size ( most common), or 2 sizes ( next most common) or even 3 sizes ( seldom, but it happens)

Example -- for an intake valve… just because a 13 goes in doesn't mean the clearance is 13. anything below 13 would also fit. It could be 12 or 11… Those would still be in spec . But, a .009 would also go in but be out of spec and call for one size smaller. A .001 will also fit… but will call for an even thinner shim

Dave

 

I respectfully maintain that my feeler gauges are sufficient. Here is the description for the KD 2274 set:
25-blade gauge measures clearances from 0.04 to 1mm. Blade sizes:0.04, 0.05, 0.06, 0.07, 0.08, 0.09, 0.10, 0.15, 0.20, 0.25, 0.30, 0.35,0.40, 0.45, 0.50, 0.55, 0.60, 0.65, 0.70, 0.75, 0.80, 0.85, 0.90, 0.95 and 1mm. Blade Lengths: 3 in. long
Source: sears dot com/kd-tools-metric-feeler-gauge/p-00994117000P

I put in bold the feeler gauges which are relevant for the bike. Of course the larger and smaller ones may be necessary if it is that far out of spec, but the ones in bold are the primary ones used for checking clearance.

My gauge set includes the following blades: 0.10, 0.13, 0.15, 0.18, 0.20 mm, and of course more gauges in each direction. So I have the gauges in the KD 2274 set, plus a couple more; not that having the additional blades helps much.

Feeler gauges come in discrete increments. The best I can do is say that gauge 'A' goes in, and gauge 'B' does not. So I guess my question is this: if the upper spec is 0.20 mm, is it good if the 0.20 mm gauge goes in, but 0.23mm does not? Or should I be shooting for 0.18 goes in but 0.20mm does not?

I never said that "there is only one shim that will fit". I said "there is only one correct shim." Based on your later comments, I think we are in vigorous agreement here. There is one, and only one shim which will provide a clearance which is within the specification range. And even then, since the range is 0.04mm wide and the shims go increments of 0.05mm, there is the theoretical possibility that one shim is too thick, and the next one down is too thin. But in that case, either is probably fine to use, and the smart mechanic would put the thinner shim in based on how the clearance gets tighter as the valve pounds into the seat.

Okay, I will remeasure. But if I find clearances as reported previously, is everything okay? Or should I be putting thicker shims in where the exhaust clearance measures >0.20mm but <0.23mm?

 

I think, and this is just my personal opinion of course, that if your valve clearance is .01-.02mm on the loose side, it is just fine. Especially in a shim-and-bucket style setup such as this. If we were adjusting tappets, it might be worth trying for a tighter margin.

 

If you've got additional blades as indicated then what you have is fine, but you should be getting an exact measurement by combining blades instead of just jumping to the next biggest one. For example, combine a 0.15 with a 0.06 to get 0.21 and see if that fits. Having an exact measurement gives you better information to be able to pick the correct shim.

 

For example.... Take your .10, stack it with the .06 and .04, you'll get your .11---- etc.

Use all the blades you need to get the actual clearances measured, now that we know you have them all, and not just the few as we understood it.

You DO NOT have to to end up with a precise clearance at the end.... You just need to be in spec. You DO need to know if the clearance is in or out of spec.

This is exactly why it's called a "clearance CHECK"

Example: intake range is .11-.15

If your clearance is .11 you're STILL IN SPEC so you don't change that shim yet. Wait til next check. It may or may not change by then. If you put the next one down in, you may very well be out of spec on the wide side.

chances of it being out of spec and having to put a thicker shim in is very unusual----the valves receded into the head and get closer to the cam. To need to put a larger shim in is usually due to a PO error ( or CO error)

Simple thing--- get your current actual clearance, then we check the chart.

Again--- IN SPEC is IN SPEC

 

I think you're math here is a little off (I would put .10 + .06 + .04 at .20, but correct me if I'm wrong), but the point still stands. You want your clearance measured to the nearest hundredth.

 

I was wondering if anyone would catch that.

 

Thank you for the example. I was not combining gauges before. I will do that this weekend when I get back in there.

I already swapped shims for most valves, so it's probably a case of CO error. It is very possible that I was working against myself by putting thinner shims in, and there's a good chance that I have some that are too loose now. I will stack feeler gauges as you described to find the clearance.

Thanks for the help. Looking forward to getting back in there this weekend. I will report back on how things go.

 

Yeah.... If you've put overly thin shims in, then you'll end up going the other direction.

Keep us posted, we'll get you through it----

 

Aaaagh....... Yeah, .20 is what I was trying to type, but ice has a real slow connection for a couple days, and keeps screwing things up. That's why there were two of the "550 carbs come back to life" forums last night, too----

But anyway, yes- the point is you can stack the feelers....

gh