What makes ideal cafe bike? Road runner or porker?

Long post > Multi part question.
Open to considered opinions, real-world solutions, others experience.

Yep its one of those "Gee, I want one, but don't have the buck$ for a Norton or Vincent" questions.
Looking for input from persons who've actually built their own or who've ridden a decently crafted road rippin' cafe rig.

Background:
Like others I've got an XS850 that I'm building into a 'cafe' bike. This is a burner with great potential. But it needs help.
Even with 520 lbs. its scary fast and well - its also pretty porky / hefty, like my old GT750 Water Buffalo was.
Not the stuff us "old school" bike-handler wannabes dream of.

Like the Suzuki, the XS hauls butt and kinda sorta handles okay until the going gets really fast / serious.
My gut and my butt tell me its not doing what a "real" cafe bike should be capable of in the twisty stuff.
Methinks its just too big / porky and over-steering to be considered a "serious" cafe bike - yet.

Point is, I see guys building the pants off lighter 550 and 750s creating a Japanese copy of a British cafe bike. Great idea.
They look pretty cool but do they have ten tenths performance and world class handling with only 50 to 75 hp on tap?

In other words; What makes a really great modern, read post-1970, "quasi" cafe bike?

Back to the Future: improvements?
Barring tossing out the entire bike what else can be done to replace decades old KYBs with shocks capable of performance e.g. handling improvement? Custom made shocks costing $1900+ is not in the cards.

Edit: just read previous post recommending Hagon shocks.

And you know mortgaging the house to acquire a Vincent Black Shadow isn't gonna happen.

How much weight can be pulled off by going kick-start only; losing the humongous oem battery, starter and anchor-like center-stand?
30 to 40 lbs.?

What forks are out there that can really help with GT-like handling?

Meanwhile plans are to replace the craptastic fork oil with heavy stuff, go to CF side panels, CJ360T headlight and Super Cell battery, all very lightweight parts.

Please let's not imitate a certain superbike forum's members with acid-laced comments.
XJbikes is a far better place.

Looking for good ideas / experience.
That's why I'm here.

Thanks for listening.

 

Replacing the rear shocks with quality units in the ~$300 range and replacing the front fork springs would be a start; You could stiffen the front up by one step, oil-weight wise (from 15 to 20, or 10 to 15, depending on what was recommended for that bike) and fit some nice sticky tires like Avon RoadRiders. All of those things worked wonders for my 550 Seca in terms of improving handling. As for the brakes; stainless steel lines, and if you want to go a step further, an aftermarket floating rotor with hi-po pads won't break the bank but certainly improves things. (Also tried and true.) Upgrading your steering head bearings to tapered roller bearings will improve steering "precision" as well.

Unfortunately, you can't "lose" the middle gear box and shaft drive. It's still gonna be a bit of a "chunky monkey" cafe-wise.

 

I have a balance-beam office scale - -

XJ starter and battery = 11 (pounds)
But you would need a Lithium-Ion pack that would weigh 2 ??, so net savings is 9
1 rotor and caliper = 6 The remaining 2 rotors need to be riddled with holes and the mounting nubs on the 1 fork tube ground off.
Maxim 750 exhaust, 4 tubes and collector (no mufflers) = 15 Yeah, it FEELS like 30 (I don't have any stock mufflers here)
MAC header pipe (no muffler) = 7 Net weight loss is 8 (15-7)
MAC muffler that I packed with extra screen and fiberglass = 6
The muffler on my Seca 900 is a 1 foot aluminum glasspack that weight I'm guessing 2 LB.
Stock Seca 750 seat = 6

I'm sure you've heard this already, but if you have your heart set on a "Triton Featherbed" you should at least consider starting over with an XS650 and add the 750 kit and cam for descent power.

But if you're building the 850, make it look like every single part has been on the workbench or in the drill-press. Drill, baby, Drill !! :lol: Grind, sand or machine EVERY visible surface on the bike.

 

Is that a Kawasaki KZ tank I see, used as a seat cowl? I have one just like it, sitting in my garage, getting ready for my cafe.

 

Have you seen this?
http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread.ph ... ight=XS850
Not you is it?
Anyway, also on the www.xs11.com forum is a bloke by the name of xschop, and he makes chain drive conversions for the XS11 but in one of his posts he says he's making one for an XS850 for a bloke in New Zealand.
Well worth checking out.

 

RoadRash

Its rear section of an XS650 fuel tank. Buddy of mine cut & trimmed it - quite a good job considering how thin the metal is.
Body work is full length in order not to cut up a solid frame.
.


.
Rear splash pan / component tray / fender unit (covered by cowl).
.




FJ111200

The cool XS11 is not mine -

He's also on http://www.customfighters.com/forums/fo ... .php?f=143

Its a unique site dedicated to bike customizers worldwide,
fast becoming home to XS triple and XS11 owners creating / building some outrageous,
hard-to-define road burners.

That guy with the cafe'd black XS11 is on the customfighters site like me-self. Looks like a pretty decent effort.
He was in a wreck on another bike just prior to this build.
Has the Aero-tech fiberglass seat combo = pricey.
CF site details how to do the XS triple's chain drive conversion.

xschop has been around awhile - has a rep for good work.
Seems to keep a low profile these days.

There are several CNC'ers out there who make the shaft supporting bearing plate - using Timken type sealed bearings.
Two CF XS850s have their plates / chain conversions.
I'm considering the conversion.
Saves some weight at the cost of maint. + reliability.
Fairly easy to do and restore if one has to sell.

 

That was a pretty impressive start to your discussion. Completely upfront and reasonable.

First, you will hear varied answers to your questions and keep in mind that none of them are wrong. Your job now is to read everything, gain the big picture then make your key decisions.

Your basic premise and fears are correct, the 850 is a beast to try to make a true cafe racer from. When we built our cafe's back in the 70's, we striped every ounce we could. If the law didn't require it, the shelf became its new home. Turn signals, heavy stalk mirrors, fenders, chain guards, even batteries when we could use a magneto setup.

The RD350(air cooled) made one of the best cafe platforms of all time. It needed some frame mods to handle the nearly 60HP the engine could easily be ported to produce, but at the end of the day, with the right shocks and front end mods, a correctly built RD would beat nearly every other bike on a curvy road save an equally built CB400F.

You can still pick up a RD in basket/nonrunning form for 600 dollars or so and that would be my first recommendation BUT, there's no reason that you can't apply the same thinking to the bike that you already own! As long as you accept the fact upfront, that it's not going to be the real racer that you want, you can gain some valuable experience while having a blast building a cool bike.

All the above comments and suggestions are true and as TTR has pointed out, we tend to over-estimate the weight we are saving but the scale doesn't lie.

Guessing that you are sticking with the 850, I'll give you my list of things to look at in no particular order and hopefully, everyone else will too. See if you can contact someone with some experience in the wiring and can maybe suggest a way to run sans battery altogether. Also, despite the work you have put into the seat/tailpiece, all I see there is heavy metal weight. either shelf it and build on from fiberglass or as was suggested, drill baby drill!!!
Look at the wheels, the best handling improvements can be had by reducing unsprung weight, saving 5 pound on wheels/tires might not seem like much but you will be amazed. Turn signals & mirrors? If this is really going to be a cafe aracer only to be ridden on occasion can you at least go without the turn signals? Up to you of course....fenders. I don't remember if yours are metal or not but fenders aren't needed for a bike that you are trying to lighten. Be CAREFUL though, some manufacturers use the front fender as a fork brace, don't make the mistake of throwing safety away for the sake of a pound or two......maybe for ten, but not for just one<LOL>. Every unused tab or widget on the frame, cut them off. Brake disks, meet Mr Drill press!

The list goes on but I've got to start my work....good luck and keep us posted!!

jeff

 

Jeff -

Good ideas in prev. posts:
Had an RD-350 twin back in the day .... sigh

Changes I'm making / have made to lighten the bike.

First Phase:
Cutting off extra frame tabs.
Lost turn signals - may use tiny 2 oz. scooter units.
Tacho's gone, unneeded thanks to Mr. Kerker.
Frt. fender's gone - using XV920 fender support (small & mighty).
Stock Grab Bar's now history.
Heavy XS taillight went bye.
Stock rear fender's gone.

Second Phase:
Changing fork oil.
Lighten up (most likely lose) heavy Center Stand.
Rethinking (selling) steel cafe seat.
You may be right @ 5 lbs., its fairly heavy.
- Fiberglass units r better suited.
Rear frame ears 2b sliced off cafe style.
Fabricate peg brackets from Alumin. tube.
Swiss cheese brake lever.

Budgeting for Hagon shocks & sticky $$$ Avon tires.
- and drilling all three brake Discs.

Edit 1/3/12: Seriously drilling, grinding and slicing parts today. 8)

 

Unless you're a machinist, have the discs professionally drilled.

Avons can be found for quite decent prices, if you shop around. The Euro is biting it big-time in relation to the dollar right now so stuff from across the Pond is getting cheaper every day.

 

Agreed: Disc drilling is best handled by professionals.

Will keep all 3 discs until my budget permits a floating dual pot caliper setup.
Less braking power on a fairly potent ride is not a good idea.

This is freetriple's XS bike wearing a complete R1 front end.
Looks like a viable alternative.

 

Since I see the tapered tank, I'm assuming you have the XS850 Special (tapered gas tank, leading-axle front forks, stepped seat, chrome fenders). Interestingly there was a write-up on the 850 Special in last month's Rider magazine (retro review). Description was that compared to the other UJMs of the era it was - only "adequate", only sold about 1/10th the numbers of the XS1100, and was dropped shortly after.
The shaft drive will always be there and it weighs a ton; the front forks are real skinny for the total weight/geometry so either replace the whole front end or go with a cosmetic cafe. Not sure that the weight you say you want to trim off will make a whole lot of difference when you take into account the bike/rider/fuel combo.
This bike was always designed to be a tourer so you would need to do considerable work to make it truly something else - probably more work/$ than going with a different platform entirely unless you just want the cafe look on the XS850 platform.

 

Semi-chopper SG tank is history ... gonzo XS11 tank being fitted now.

Had several touring XS11 / XJ11s and 2 XS850's.
All are heavy beasts. I like the XS850 engine and frame.
Yes it will be real work getting it to handle.

Who knows the loss of 75 lbs. of dead weight [scheduled / accomplished] might help overall performance.
So it started as a cosmetic project and is evolving into a more serious effort; bit by bit.



Bike has lost approx. 32 lbs. so far. Already it moves / reacts better than dead stock.
Target wt has to be in the 430 lb. range to do any justice to carving scenic back roads.
With more creative effort (CF & 'glass parts) and maybe an RZ350 front end the Triple could get down very close to 400 lbs.

Now shopping for a lighter battery - the mega oem SLA batt. weighs a whopping 11.2 lbs.
Going with kick-start only. Starters are heavy so it also goes - for now.

Yes the drive-train is very heavy.
Considering a chain drive conversion $$$.

There's a number of these resto cafe XS beasts running around with trick front ends using GSXR
and Triumph parts and sporting chain drive.
http://www.customfighters.com/forums/sh ... afe+triple

This guy's triple is pretty awesome considering what he started with.
http://www.customfighters.com/forums/sh ... hp?t=43121

I don't know how fast they handle but their owners seem pleased with the results.



Having access to lots of aluminum and being persistent pays off. 8)

 

That's a big hunk of metal holding the rear caliper - - adapt an R6 unit hung under the swingarm??

Too bad trimming and knife-edgeing the crank isn't in the budget.

 

TimetoRide:
Rear brake is a target area for future WT reduction / change soon.

Rear disc is dense quasi-stainless steel / needs to be drilled.
Net savings estimated 3 to 3.5 lbs.

Massive Rear Torque Arm is 1/4" plate steel and way overbuilt for the stock rwhp. = heavy. Dunno how much WT can be saved here although one suspects it would be substantial.
Alumin. Caliper Carrier - although it appears bulky it's fairly light.
Single piston is okay for freeway speeds esp. since its hard to do more than 90 mph on marginally maintained I-19 / I-10.

As it happens I have a stock of 1/2" and 1/4" 5052 Aluminum plate just waiting to be carved to duplicate the torque arm.
I'm told this material is more than adequate for brake application.
Now if my machinist buddy has the time we could crank up his vertical lathe / mill and go to town ...

 

What about an XS1100 16inch rear wheel and an FJ1200 front end and 17inch wheel like i've got on one of my XS11's?

Have you seen this aswell?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4T47Wp4e54

 

Sorry i wasn't quick enough to edit my post.
XS1100 with 16inch rear and FJ front end.



In case you missed it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4T47Wp4e54

and see my previous post.

 

Mild hijack - that is a really nice looking XS1100! Looks like it has the OEM rectangular headlight from that angle. How about more details on the tank/seat/tail? How hard was it to adapt the FJ1200 front end?

 

I hope taildragger doesn't mind the hi-jack.
Yeah that's the original rectangular headlight, bolted up to some XJR1200 clamps. The tank is XJR1200 pushed onto rubbers griping the frame tubes and modified with an FJ1200 3CV petrol tap to clear the carbs and a universal on/off tap added into the line.
The seat is an aftermarket XS11 item and the tail is FJ1100, and the rear wheel is a 16inch from an XS1100 Special, the original being a 17inch.
The front end originally had the XS steering stem pressed into the FJ bottom yoke but when offered up was too short, so the FJ original was put back and a spacer was machined to take up the gap because then the FJ stem was too long, and it's a 3CV model with the 17inch wheel and 4 pot calipers and not the earlier models with the 16inch and twin calipers.
The bars are Renthals and held in place by some Raask risers.
That's it, not much of a custom, just a load of spare bits cobbled together from my garage.

 

Sokay guys: Had to work, missed getting the pics & details >

FJ111200

I like the FJ front end swap idea as well.

Seems like the XS11 rear caliper is the same oem unit XS850 rear brake.
They look to be the same part / caliper.



My XS850 '80 SG model uses a 130/90 H-16 rear wheel & tire as oem equipment.
Its a swap item for XS11 drivers who desire better acceleration.

Likewise XS1100-850 owners who want taller gearing can opt for the 18" XS850 rear wheel.
http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33955

There are several front end options for XS owners who desire better handling / braking.
By using R-1 (1999), V-Max or FJ front ends > all with 4 piston calipers; one can have the best of both
worlds on a vintage Yamaha cruiser.
The last two bikes use traditional RSU fork mounting.

In the process of obtaining details on successfully swapping the R-1 Fork USD Assembly [from 1999 YZF-600]
onto an XS850 frame from an acquaintance who's done it.



Here's list of fork diameters. Yes there are multiple lists.
http://www.customfighters.com/forums/sh ... hp?t=17555

Subjective to real world question:
How much stopping power advantage do 4 piston front brakes have over vintage single pot calipers?

There's a guy in Holland who made a 520 Alumin. adapter for a Nissin 4 piston caliper & installed it on an XS11 custom GP bike
(on Marvic 18" real mag wheel + XS-Chop's chain drive).

 

I'm no expert td, but i reckon there must be less stopping distance and less pressure needs to be applied at the lever. :?:
You must have noticed how thick those XS discs are compared to more modern ones. Just a thought.

 

Here's an update on getting this Triton Featherbed to handle better.
No paint on tank - just 'raw steel' w/ 2K clear.
Drilled levers and handmade aluminum pegs.

Now wearing XS850 G front fork w/ Progressive Suspension upgraded innards / springs / oem calipers w/ stock pads (so far). Air adjustable fork helps ride quality a lot.
Being fitted with a compact FZR600 master cylinder.
Immediate benefit: No more fork diving in potholes or hard stops.

For most street traffic speeds oem brakes seem to haul the bike down fairly quick but its no R1 setup.
Ordering stainless steel braided lines for firmer application & better feel.

Rear Showas are fully rebound & pre-load adjustable as well.
On the road they're more effective than pricey cushions on my XS11 and XJ11 bikes.
They keep the bike tracking true and under control.






.
.
At higher turning speeds I can feel the gyro effects of huge 19" oem wheel.
It makes the bike want to sit up and keep going straight.
Funny how much muscle is needed on the clubmans to get bike to turn hard & fast.

Yet to do: AGM battery for 60% less wt., losing heavy starter motor & anchor-like center stand.
And sourcing a set of $$$ upgraded tires.

Not soft and mushy like the old 850 SG model its based upon yet a lot more fun to ride hard n fast.

 

Keep strippin !!

Crank Up Volume!! . :twisted:

 

Strip-off pile keeps growing ... box of parts weighs close to 50 lbs.

Center stand's gone & tiny Honda Spree AGM 3 Ah 50 CCA battery on board.
With kicker only; mega lump starter is going next ....





Bike now weighs approx. 480 lbs. ... and that's before losing the starter.
Actual WT could be lighter.
Handles better - except for those short hard turns.

Breaking out the drill again this week ....

 

How is the angle of the tank bottom when you are riding? If it is sloped to the rear you might have a little more room to either raise the rear suspension (increase shock preload, go to a slightly longer shock) or lower the front forks (maybe 10mm). This should help "quicken" the steering for low-speed maneuvers, but it will make higher-speed maneuvers more sensitive (i.e., "squirrelly").

 

The oem Showas work great; they're just too short with seat now 2" lower.

Great minds:
Funny; was thinkin' its about time to go to a higher duty / longer shock.
Yes - Long rear cushions may balance handling; help offset the 19" wheel's slow N lazy response.

There's a polished 19" rim waiting in th' Man Cave itching to be index drilled thru the webs.


Frame easily drops with 3/4 to 1" of the tubes showing.

Before the XS11 fuel tank >

 

how about making those side covers from plastic?
then there's two ways to go one or two
for me two would be the way to go

 

Let's see - either way gets pretty durn'd expensive.

Titanium metric fasteners at $11.47 a pop.
Estimate 200 fairly hefty fasteners on an XS bike.

Sure - that's only $2,294 to save 30-32 lbs.

Or we can go the Ossa route; a magnesium framed GP racer.



From the pic notes:

This amazing little OSSA 250cc Grand Prix bike finished 3rd in the 250cc World Championship in 1969. Its revolutionary monocoque stunned the Grand Prix paddock, yet the clearly superior design never found favour with the big manufacturers. Designed by Eduardo Giró, the son of OSSA founder Manuel Giró, the bike featured a six-speed gearbox mated to a single cylinder, 250 cc two-stroke rotary valve engine. It produced a modest 30 hp. The engine was no match for the fire-breathing V4 Yamahas of Phil Read and Billy Ivy, but with its clever magnesium monocoque chassis, the bike weighed a full 20 kg (44 lbs) less than the class-leading Japanese competition. Riding the bike was young Spanish superstar Santiago Herrero, who soon showed the world that despite its power deficit, the advantages of the innovative chassis were sufficient to bring the small team Grand Prix victories. Herrero reveled in the OSSA’s superior cornering and braking ability, throwing the OSSA into corners like it was a 125 cc lightweight. He was able to carry more speed whilst being super-accurate, and slice up the inside of his competitors under braking. It was all due to the monocoque superior chassis stiffness and weight.

 

Here's what's coming next:

For putting the hammer down ... more whoa!



That's a huge Ducati 320mm disc on an XJ11 fork leg.
Except for the caliper adapter its a bolt-on upgrade.



or to go softer on the wallet just a wee bit -



Now class, study the pics carefully and realize what's possible for little money.
Last photo is of a possible donor for the ultimate braking system...



Let's see ... any bike being hauled down by dual Nissin calipers with a brake system almost as effective as that
of a CBR1100XX Blackbird.

OK guys it's got top gun bragging rights.