new battery or something more serious

Hi XJ

I've just recently had to have breakdown out to restart my bike when would not restart 5 mins after 3 mile run
It was slightly more difficult to start when started out, but when I came out of the building I visited, the battery was almost flat, and would only turn over a few (slowish) times, and then nothing - just a buzz when I pressed starter.

The technical guy arrived and got it started on his jump starter, and it got me home (We let it run for five minutes to try and recharge battery, before I set off) It would not restart when left, so I set off with the engine started with the jump start.

When I arrived home, I turned off the engine, left it for a minute, then tried to restart - almost no response, and back to the 'buzz' on starter button only.

It is a gel battery, that I have had for about 4-5 years.

Tried to recharge using optimum charger (initially 11.9v), went up to 12.6v
Put back on machine and started immediately - let it run for 10 mins to try and recharge, turned off and left for 10 minutes - tried to start again, and flat again - nothing but a couple of slow turns then the buzz again.

Any ideas anyone please?

Are these the symptoms of when a gel battery have to be replaced?

I have seen on youtube that you can actually recharge these batteries on the old analog type chargers, instead of using the new digital ones?

And I don't want to buy a new battery, and find out that it was something else.

Regards.

 

sounds like a bad battery. charge it up record voltage and let battery sit over night record voltage again. then install in bike and do a voltage drop test on the battery when you press starter button
you have to do a charging system test.
what voltage do you get at 2000rpm?
can you bump start the bike
this link has the test specs
The Ultimate Relay, Switch, Sensor, and Diodes Guide

 

I would also verify the bike's charging system. I agree it does sound like the battery has kicked the bucket but I'd be curious to know if the charging system is doing its part

 

Hold fire.
I've just had it on charge all afternoon (8 hours) and it's charged up across the board on my optimeter charger at 14.6v!
Started first time and let run on centre-stand in 4th for 10 minutes with lights OFF, (to maximise any charge from the regulator), and then turned off.
Left it for 1 minute, returned and started straight away again.

Then left it for 1 hour to cool - went back and it started straight away again, with a nice big bright ignition light!

I must have inadvertently left the lights on for an hour or so the other day after returning from a ride out. (Probably enough to not fully drain - and just enough to start yesterday, and get me up to where I was. As I had drove up with my lights on, which I always do - that must have drained the battery enough, so that when I returned to my bike from the shop I had been to - it didn't have enough charge to be enough to fire the bike up!

Drama over then, but Thank You for your feedback - much appreciated as always!

 

This might not have given you much of a charge... I don't believe the charge kicks in until the revs get higher, like over a couple of thousand rpm. However, I might be thinking about the charging system on a different bike.

 

Idling in 4th gear is still idling. Voltage dosen't get high enough to charge a battery until the engine is above 2,000 RPM.
A good battery can start a bike several times before needing to be charged, but will never recharge if the charging system is not working properly.

Have you put a volt meter to the battery with the engine running and actually checked if the voltage increases as you increase engine RPM?
Please report back with voltage readings at idle, at 2,000 RPM, and at 3,500 RPM.

 

Thanks for your input guys.

I've discovered that nearly everytime I put the headlamp on, it drains the battery.
It recharges fine, right up to 14.6v.
I ran the bike without the headlamp on and it held the charge, so I'm assuming the charging system is fine(?)
I'm assuming that it's something to do with either the headlamp earth, switch (which I had installed professionally on top of the headlamp cowl 10 years ago, when I bought the bike), or a dodgy earth somewhere else in the headlamp?

Any other ideas please?

Regards.

 

even if the charging isn't working 100% it's time to look for a sale on batteries

 

If the charging system were fine then having the headlight on would not drain the battery while riding even if there were a problem with the headlamp circuit (that drain would happen while the bike sits though). U.S. and Canadian bikes are required to have he headlight on whenever the engine is running, and they have the same charging system.

You can't keep guessing at things. Get a multimeter hooked up and test.

 

Thanks again.
It drained over 2 volts immediately, just by turning the light on whilst up to operating temperature, idling in stationary. Not got a multimeter, only way (?) I could check is with optimeter charger fixed up, and rev up to 2000, and see if reading rises? (with the light OFF of course!)
I'll try that, but not sure if you can get a true reading of charging system capability by using the charger digital reading?
Regs.

 

Just restarted (light OFF) (reading at 14.6v), left for a minute and turned engine off. Reapplied optimiser, started again, and reading at 12.4v, revved up to 2000+, and reading still 12.4/12.5v.

 

Latest is that I've just taken the bike to shop, and they tested the battery and say that unit is ok, and will charge, but is not charging when the bike engine is running (over 2000rpm)
The guy said that the regulator/rectifier needs replacing. (first he said it was the alternator/stator) He only did tests on the battery terminals using a sophisticated device, which came up with loads of diagnostics, whilst the bike was running. Looked in Haynes, and it says that the regulator should not need replacing unless it can 'become damaged in the event of a short circuit in the electrical system, or by poor or intermittent battery or earth connections'.
I have had to change the main power fuse a couple of months ago, which blew twice when I was turning '0ff', but I cleaned inside the ignition key switch, and that seemed to resolve the issue.
The rear left indicator sometimes needs a 'nudge' to come on.
And, as I have mentioned earlier, something seems to flatten the battery by at least two volts, if I turn the headlamp on at the headlamp cowling switch when started (or before). Will not restart subsequently, unless recharged with optimiser charger.
Regards.

 

higher than normal voltage is regulator. lower than expected is alternator typically the brushes need to be replaced and copper rings cleaned

clean all your ground connections to motor battery and frame

 

this link tells you how to evaluate the charging system it is after the relay section.

The Ultimate Relay, Switch, Sensor, and Diodes Guide

 

Remove the alternator cover and check the brush length and condition of the rotor traces. Dirty traces should be cleaned with a hard art eraser.

 

Thank you so much for your latest tips! I shall carry them out this afternoon, and see if I get improvement.

I have sent for regulator. (but if it is how you describe, and it is the alternator, there is one on ebay, and I'll send for that- the brushes that is)
Went out today (with light off, and started first time almost), Stopped 3 times in a one hour period. First time it started after a few turns, second after a few slower turns, and 10 minutes later I stopped, was 2 minutes in shop, and when I came out and pressed starter button, - virtually nothing again!

I was fortunate, because I only had to push it about 100 yards, where there is a downward gradient. Slowly let it roll down the hill, kicked it into second, let the clutch out, and it started first turn! It got me the mile and a half back home.

One thing I have noticed whilst I am riding, is that there seems to be a bit of loss of power and unresponsive (to how it normally is) Would that point to anything in particular?

Anyway, I'll get on with what you have suggested, and report back with results.

Thanks again!

 

I've just had the rotor cover off, and examined the brushes system - the brushes (if they are the long oblong pillars?) had a bit of dust on them, and I cleaned that off, they are both the same length and spring loaded. They look remarkably clean. I'll take the stator out now, look at the state of that - clean it where I think necessary, and report back. Where are the copper rings? Where are the 'rotor traces' and what do they look like?

Regards.

 

Had another look inside the rotor, but can't get the stator bolt out (it just turns the flywheel, either way). There was a load of black gunge stuff around the southern hemisphere of the base of the copper plastic-covered wiring (which had a burnt smell) Cleaned all that off, and all other areas I could get at, but can't clean it all properly until I get the stator bolt and stator out. I bet you need a tool to get that bolt out, and I haven't got one?
Any ideas please?
Meanwhile, I'll put case back on and hook battery back on charge.
Regards

 

you do not need to remove the stator. the brushes ride on the copper rings when you look at the rotor there should be 2 copper rings on the face of it.
if you could not see them they must be real dirty

minimum brush length is 11mm.


stator should just pull out

 

clean dirty

 

How do I get the bolt out to remove the rotor, to inspect the back of it please? (whilst unit still on machine)
Regards.

 

put bike in gear have someone stand on the brake pedal and remove bolt. impact gun would work best.

you are going to need a tool to remove the rotor it is a special bolt

 

Had it running today and it is much better. Stopped 3 times and restarted almost immediately. Don't know if it has anything to do with my cleaning the copper plastic coated loom or not? (my rota facing once got stator cover off is different to one's in the pics you sent)
It was at 12.8v when I got back (on the charger digital reading) Reading does not move at all, when I rev up to 2000+
Got a multimeter today so can do proper tests tomorrow on regulator, battery, and stator/rotor etc
Shall report back with the results
Regards.

 

The brushes have wear-limit markers on them. How close are they to being worn out? Wear limit is 10mm total length.
Low voltage output is almost always due to worn brushes.

 

I'll measure length of the brushes tomorrow k-moe, whilst I'm carrying out the diagnostic tests. Also do some more cleaning (if I can find that face with the two copper rings on!)

 

I'll also send some pics, to save me trying to explain what I'm up against!
Regards

 

Only had time to do a battery check this afternoon. (I'm on nights at work all weekend)
Using voltmeter, and engine running reading was at 11.7v, revved up to 2000+, and no change in reading.
Onto the stator/rotor resistance test next. (and a possible further clean!)
Regards.

 

this is the brush holder behind the cover measure the brushes and clean where ever they contact rotor . brush holder unscrews

 

It's the face that faces you when you take the cover off (note that these are fairly dirty).

 

Copy that k-moe
Thank You.

 

The screws on that brush holder take some removing. Do you need an impact screw driver for this? (factory sealed?)
Regs.

 

JIS screwdriver. Nothing is phillips, and phillips will ruin the screwheads.
A handheld impact will have a bit that fits correctly, just don't use a hammer on it.

 

So thats why I've been stripping these screws all these years!! And always end up using my impact driver!! Learn something new everyday. Do these screw drivers come in different sizes?

 

Yes, but #2 is all you'll need for your XJ.

 

Appreciate the tip man. Ive only been on here sporadically frankly because ive never gotten my XJ going yet. But the info here is worth its weight in gold!!

 

Sending some pics from home now.
Will follow up with write up from work later.

 

Please see all pics sent earlier, especially of the multimeter I am using
Cleaned the face of the rotor copper rings with electrical cleaner, and a cloth.
Brushes are at 12mm length, both of them.
Cleaned all areas of stator and rotor that I could get at. (not took rotor off yet, to look behind, didn't have time)
Tried to get brush system off without hammer, using the correct bit - no chance stuck fast! (can't get leverage on just the impact driver handle with hand, especially whilst stator cover brush system lead is still attached somewhere in the depths at the back of the machine!)
Did resistance test on the two copper rings using multimeter (couldn't find the two, and three point connectors, mentioned in Haynes - please tell me where to locate them?)
There are pics of the tester I am using. These are the results from tests of resistance using 2 copper rings on rotor face:

There is no '1 ohm setting' on this meter

At 2k setting: 0.8 - 0.9
At 200 setting: 12.2 - 12.3
At 2M setting: 0.00

The leads from the alternator/stator disappear down the middle back of the engine at the side of the starter motor. Any idea where they end up please? (sorry for the repetition!)
Cleaned the connectors at the side of the battery, (I believe one is the solenoid)
Cleaned the connectors that go in to the CDI unit (one 6 point, and one four, I think)
Cleaned the connector that goes into the unit underneath the CDI box

Turned on machine and started first time voltage reading was 12.4
Allowed to get up to operating temperature, revved up to past 2000rpm, and just went down to 11.48, didn't rise whilst increased RPM, right up to 5000
Turned off machine, waited 5 minutes, and tried to restart - would not start - turned over a few times but battery down to 11.4, and not enough to start machine.
Put battery back on charge, and 40 minutes later when back to 12.1v machine started!
Does this give you any idea of how my situation is now?

Any ideas appreciated (especially how/if I have got the meter set wrong!)

Regards

 

ps Received replacement rotor/alternator yesterday. Been looking at ways to test on youtube,without being on machine, so will report back my result on that later.
Just need to know where the connector blocks are? I'll have a look under the seat and frame there
Regs.

 

I've found the two and three pin connectors for the stator/alternator windings. Did resistance checks, on both the two and three pin connectors and could not get continuity from what it says in Haynes. I'm still not sure if I'm operating the meter correctly, but sometimes I get the right reading and others it gives what I think is termed an 'infinite' resistance, where the digital just goes up and up, and then back to '1' (?)
I'll revisit YouTube tutorials on checking the resistance. Also, now I've got time, I'll remove the rotor from the flywheel, and have a good look at that.
Meanwhile, any ideas on my findings would be appreciated.
Regs.

 

As stated earlier there is no need to remove the rotor to test it. However, in your above post you noted:

The 200 ohm setting is the correct range to use, but you indicated 12.2 - 12.3, which is too high. It should be 4.0 +/- 10%. You noted you also had a replacement, so use that one as a comparison to verify proper testing methods.

The three pin connector for the stator should read quite low between all three pins (.46 +/- 10%), but normally reads just a bit out of spec because it is really a bit too low for a standard meter to properly read. The meter going to infinite on occasion might just be poor contact between the meter leads and the terminals, so make sure you are making a good metal to metal contact to obtain a reading.

The two pin connector for the rotor should theoretically read 4 ohms also, but when measuring at the two pin connector it is usually more in the range of 5 to 15 ohms. Anything higher here would be attributed to poor contact of the brushes to the rotor rings, dirty rotor rings, or brushes that have deteriorated beyond their useful limit. A good starting point is to verify the rotor resistance meets the spec as stated above when measuring directly across the copper slip rings on the rotor.

 

Thanks Rooster

Sorry, it's a replacement Rectifier/Regulator, and I've just installed it because when I did some tests on mine from Hayne's it was nowhere near!
I've inquired about a rotor, but need to make sure which I need - maybe the stator also!?

After I installed the replacement rectifier, I got up to 13+v reading when RPM up past 2000+ (on the 5-pin connector, negative to black, and positive to brown, positive to green gives something lower) Took machine out for short run (battery was at 12.4v and didn't put light on) when returned battery was still at 12.4v, so put it on trickle charge, and at the moment it's at 13.6v (reading on the charger)

I've dug out Dwayne Verhey's CD, and done some tests off that.
Ohms tests on copper rings on front of rotor came out resistance is between 4 and 6 ohms. (says that the wiring to the brushes, or the brushes themselves are at fault)
The brushes look fine to me, both same length, and clean, but I can't get them off at the moment(?) I would have to pull all the wiring out to check that, but seems like I might have to.............? (perhaps the wiring might be compromised in some way, partially burnt, and shorting whatever because that is where the wiring is closest to the engine and unseen)

Just re-tested the 3 and 2 pin connectors for the stator and rotor, made sure good connections and set on the 200 ohms on the meter. Did this 3 times.

Results were the same each time:
3-pin connector (stator): 2.2 ohms
2-pin connector (rotor): 34.6 ohms...... You say it should be .46? (the ignition is OFF, by the way)

Same tests with ignition ON:
3-pin connector: 2.0
2-pin connector: 35.9 (or is that 3.59?) You say it should be 5-15 ohms anyway?

The battery is now 'fully charged' on the charger, reading 14.6v
The meter reading on the 20v scale, connected to the battery terminals is 12.52v

Hope this gives you some more scope with evaluating what still needs to be done?

Thanks for all your attention to date.......!

Regards.

 

Both of those are quite high. Try touching the two DMM leads together (200 ohm scale) to make sure you get a reading of .2 or less - try touching the same terminal at different spots and you should also get a reading of .2 or less. Subtract that reading from the values you get when probing separate terminals on the 3 pin connector.

That's an improvement over before so perhaps the bike shop diagnosed correctly. Make sure the battery is fully charged and then check directly across the battery and see what numbers you get when revving up to 3K or so.

 

Done some tests this morning, typed it all out, and then lost it because I wasn't signed in!
Going out for a 14 mile run now and will report back on return........

 

Tested from charged this morning (after replacement rectifier in place):
Battery with headlamp OFF idling = 12.3v.....at 3000rpm = 13.6v......at 6000rpm = 14.6v
" " " " " " " ON idling = 12.58v....at 3000rpm = 12.31v....at 6000rpm = 13.66v

Was at 12.4v when I set off for 7 mile run headlamp ON. When arrived at destination tested across battery terminals, and still at 12.4v
On return (7 miles again) with headlamp OFF, tested across the battery after turning off ignition and reading was 12.59v

My assumption is that when it is under load, with the 100w headlamp on, it merely maintains the original charge whilst driving over 2000rpm?
When driving at over 2000rpm without the 100w headlamp on, and under no other load, the battery is being somewhat recharged, if only 1.5v after 7 miles? Is this increase in charge what it should be, or should it increase the charge anyway whether under load or not?
It seems to me that it should charge more, even with the headlamp on.

My neighbour came across this afternoon, who is an ex-mechanic and he iterated that if the 'bike is almost 40 years old (which it is), then potentially the rotor and stator are both that age also, and won't perform the same as when they were new, and hence won't kick out a charge at the rate they used to? (so one or both might need replacing to get maximum output? He also said that while my original rectifier was not working properly, or at all, the only charge that would be going to the battery would be AC current, not DC?
I mentioned that I haven't been able to get the brush system off yet, but visually they are at the right length (12mm), and the spring loading is working fine on them.
I have cleaned the rings on the front of the rotor til no more black comes off, but have not had the stator and rotor wire out physically to inspect those.
As I said earlier Dwayne Verhey's CD points out that if a resistance of 4-6 ohms is apparent from the copper rota ring test, the brushes should be replaced?
Took readings again of the 3 and 2 point connectors from the stator and rotor:

3 pin: 2.0 ohms +/- 0.2
2 pin: 13 ohms +/- 0.2 - That is a big difference from the 35.9 (or 3.59 from yesterday)
(Rooster, I'm not quite sure what you mean about 'DD leads', but if you mean tapping the two meter leads together to make sure the digital reading is at zero, before taking readings then I've done that) Please explain, if not and excuse my ignorance!
Another point, I must have recharged the battery about 5 or 6 times over the past fortnight or so, possibly weakening it's charge (when fully charged) a tad?

Having said all this (and cross referencing my battery tests results this morning and after the ride) Dwayne Verhey's chart says that (headlamp disconnected, take fuse out?) rev engine up to 2500........higher than 13.5v..........rev up to 5000.......Lower than 14.8v.........CHARGING SYSTEM PERFECTLY OK! (sorry if the capitals mean shouting?) But if you compare my results with what Dwayne Verhey says...........?

Any observations or decuctions greatly appreciated!

Regards.

 

I think your 100w headlight is simply too much for the charging system. This merely my opinion with a little speculation but when the headlight is off your readings are normal. It's only when the headlight is on that you get lower than normal charging voltages. I'm sure more knowledgeable members will chime in and correct me

 

Len usually gets it right and this is what he says:

"HCP8570 Aftermarket modular headlight system HALOGEN BULB, rated at 80/100W output, for all models that use a modular (replaceable bulb) headlight system. I cannot tell you how much we urge you to NOT upgrade to this rating bulb....but for the "bigger is always better crowd" well, here it is. Don't be surprised if you melt your wiring, or catch your headlight housing on fire, or fry your computer-controlled dash if your electrical system isn't up to snuff, though. Or even if it is.........."

I would agree for the reasons he stated - the switches, wiring, etc were not designed for that wattage.

That said, the charging system should be good for about 19 amps, so I would guess that it could handle the headlight as long as the battery is in good shape.

 

Copy your obs. Chilt, but the headlamp is an oversize stock issue for this machine, and various members have iterated that (IN USA especially) the legal requirements is to have headlamp on at all times when riding, and the machine is designed to charge battery whilst running and headlamp on.
You have just reminded me tho' that there might be an adjustable voltage charger somewhere on this model?
Can anyone else confirm this please, or is this just myth?

Thanks for your input

Regards.

 

Just read your input Rooster, I can't remember upgrading the bulb, but I'll have a look at it and report back. If it is indeed a 100w Halogen or similar, I'll replace it with the stock issue and test again?
Cheers.

 

I feel like an idiot for missing this detail.
There's the problem allright (potentially).

 

There is no adjustment possible to the charging system (unless you want to bother with depotting the R/R and making internal component changes).