new battery or something more serious

When new I'd agree. With a cleaned and deoxed wiring harness I'd agree.
Variables....such a PITA sometimes.

 

Had the headlamp shell apart, looked at bulb and it's a 100/80 P43 T UV
The bulb holder had melted down two sides, but still worked! Took me a couple of minutes to prise the bulb out tho' and get new one in.
Replaced it with the only one I've got which is an H4 60/55W.
This bulb is working fine.
Readings across charged battery (light OFF at 3000rpm - 13.6v)
Readings with light ON at 3000rpm - 12.36v
Will take out for a run, with light ON, take readings before and after. (to see if charge rate any better, than with previous bulb in?)
Does anyone know what rating the correct bulb is please, so I can search and get one? (I'm assuming it is NOT the HCP 8570 warned about earlier in this thread?)

Thank you all for your help.

Regards.

 

Just found out in Haynes that it's a Philips H4 12342/99 (55/60W), OR an Osram Bilux H4 64193
I've put an H4 60/55 in anyway, but will get one all the same and install that (says got 30% brighter beam)

Regards.

 

The 60 watt low beam should be fine. I run a stock bulb and 20W worth of auxiliary running lights without any charging problems.

It still seems that your charging voltage is low with the light on though. Are there any accessories on the bike that you may not know about? I ask because I found a faulty alarm once that was constantly drawing more current than it should, and the alarm was well-hidden so it took me weeks to figure out.
Have you made sure that your meter is reading true, or used another meter to test with?

 

14 volts 19 amps at 5000 rpm spec from manual


100 watt bulb is drawing 7 amps if everything in the wiring is good.

 

The only accessory that I added, about 3 years ago, was a rectangular spotlamp (100w), installed in parallel, across the battery, and properly fused and switched. Hardly ever used it, only in foggy conditions. This had been turned OFF in all my previous readings.
The side-stand cut-off switch has not worked in years - don't know if that would affect charging system..?

Just fitted new 55/60w Philips bulb to headlamp.

Measured voltage across battery with engine and light off - 12.1v

Took for 7 mile run at 2000+ most of the way, with light ON.

Measured across battery again at 7 miles, light OFF and engine OFF - 12.0v!

Rode back home with light ON, 7 miles again, turned off light and engine and measured across battery again - 11.31v

Started machine again, light ON, and 5000rpm - 11.76v

Light OFF, at 5000rpm - only 12.12v!

This does not seem to be charging the battery, even with replacement regulator fitted, and lower load bulb?
As I have observed before, the brushes visually are ok, and I've cleaned the rotor face rings clinically.

I haven't got meter that measures that high in amps, so I can't check by that process.

I'll check the meter batteries, because when I turn it ON, and set to 20v, -1 keeps appearing, until I click the two electrodes together to zero it.
Could there be a short, or bad earth somewhere, caused by worn wire insulator, and this is reducing either the running charge to the battery, or it's capacity to charge, whether the light is on, or off?

(Or could it be the alternator/rotor/stator? Worn, and not generating enough charge? They are, potentially 37 or 38 years old)

Also, the battery is about 5-6 years old, although it is a gel one, and should be good for 8-10 years so threads on the 'net say. It has always charged up ok to capacity. (about 12.3 to 12.7v)

Any further thoughts appreciated....
Regards.

 

no amp test is needed. when talking about brushes visually does not cut it when talking about mm measurments

5 0r 6 year old battery sounds more like the issue

the regulator changes ac voltage to dc voltage and limits the output voltage.

 

Measured both brushes 2 week's ago and both at required 12mm

 

Just sent for replacement stator and lead.
See if that improves things.
Battery recharged to 13.7v, and charger said it was 'fully charged' at this, after initially reading 14.7v, and then coming down to the 13.7 and stabilising at this reading.

 

Might be a good choice as the stator readings you have posted were never very good.

You can measure the current through the field coil (rotor) to make sure the wiring, brushes, and regulator are functioning properly. Maximum current should occur when the bike is not running - it may go just a bit higher running at idle as brush contact improves with the rotor spinning.



You could also check the charging current by removing the main fuse and inserting a meter there. It is a little bit risky with just one meter as they tend to be rated at 10 amps, but if you are careful it shouldn't be a problem. Note also that the main fuse is part of the charging system and if the fuse box has never been replaced the contact between the fuse and fuse holder can cause significant losses causing poor charge - note this usually causes excessive heating also. Here is a video of the charging system at work with a fully charged battery - it uses two meters to monitor charging current but note that the total of the two never goes over 10 amps.

 

Thanks Rooster
This is very helpful.
A week after I bought the bike I had to send it back under warranty because it just wouldn't start or even turn over.
Tried everything in my knowledge at the time and even had my ex-mechanic friend scratching his head in bewilderment.
They returned the bike fixed, and I noticed that what they had done was replaced the main fuse compartment in the still existing original fuse box, with a externally wired one, next to it, a big glass fuse within a transparent plastic case, held together with a metal clip?
Don't know if this has anything to do with it but I'll send a photo for your perusal.
Meanwhile I will study what you have sent and carry out the new procedures (where I can) and report back.
I don't receive the stator till later this week however.

Thank you very much for your valuable, continuous support.

Regards.

 

Just received my replacement stator.
At what Ohm setting should meter be at to test the part whilst OFF the machine, and what should the readings be please?
Enclose a pic of my fusebox, with the replacement ignition(?)/signal fuse
Regards

 

The meter should be set to the lowest available scale, which is usually 200 ohms for a DMM. The actual spec is .46 ohms +/- 10%. It is not uncommon to read slightly higher but certainly should not be in the 2 ohm range that you measured earlier with the original.

That fuse box needs to go even if it is not currently causing a problem - it looks original except for the one repair and is likely to cause issues in the future.

https://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threads/how-to-install-an-aftermarket-fuse-box.6350/

 

I'm still getting readings of 01.8 - 02.1ohms on the replacement stator, tested OFF the bike.
I enclose pic of how my meter is set, to achieve these results.
Have I got the meter set right, and if not could you please correct me with pic?

 

Pic with digital reading on screen before testing

 

The meter is set correctly, although the leads are reversed which won't affect resistance reading but could confuse you on voltage readings. What is the reading on the meter when set to that scale when the leads are touched together? It should display something in the order of .1 or .2 ohms.

 

It has '1' displayed. Can't remove that when touching electrodes together.

 

Well, the one (overload or open) should go away when the leads are touched together and the display should change to either zero, or at worst case .1 or .2 ohms. Most of my meters are auto select, but this one is what you should get on your meter when the leads are touched together.

 

Might be that he has a bad lead.

 

Yes, I am starting off with the 1. (when set to the 2k ohms setting).
If I set it to the 200 setting, I get 1 . showing.
Tested my still uninstalled replacement stator (3-point), at the 200 setting and get 02.8, 03.3 etc. (and more!)
When I test it at the 2k setting, get 0.4, 0.5, 0.4, which Haynes says is correct resistance for stator (this is with the unit off the bike)
I'll test the resistance of my units on the bike at that setting (2k), and see what results are forthcoming. (with ignition OFF)
Meanwhile, I've just had to do new vac-sync, because when I changed the headlamp bulb down to a 55w, the idling at temperature went up to 1400rpm.
I assume this is because the 55w bulb is putting less load on the system, and therefore running rpm's go up(?)
Will report back later on results.

I am just off to a fabricator's to get a quote on an stainless custom made exhaust system, (minus the collector box) because I am fed up to my eyeballs of having to replace the used collector box every couple of years ($200 including postage from USA), and downpipes ($40, used, each) because of the salt on the roads over here in winter. I even sprayed with $20 'protector', to no avail.

Laters..........

Regards.

 

That setting will not work with the expected low resistance of about .46 ohms. With the meter set to 2K you should see a reading of .000 displayed. Perhaps you can find another meter to do your testing with, as I doubt that you have two bad stators as indicated by the measurements on the 200 ohm setting. Defective leads as k-moe suggested are a definite possibility for the higher than normal readings.

 

There is a break in the positive lead. I enclose photos. Can I get any readings off the new leads I've just bought? (pic enclosed of them)
I have taken the old stator off, and taken readings etc. but can't be sure of their accuracy now I've ascertained a broken positive lead.
The brushes look ok, you can see the wear limit on the pics.
There was a slight amount of oil coming out of the bottom of the rotor pan - is this normal?
Meanwhile, I'll send for a new set of leads.
I've got a feeling it may be the rotor itself.

Thanks for your help.

Regards.

 

Not sure about you meter leads but the oil seal behind the rotor is leaking. Now may be the time to pull the rotor to replace the seal. Then clean up the rotor faces(where the brushes contact) with a hard eraser and some electrical cleaner. Then once you have the oil seal fixed, rotor cleaned, and meter leads fixed(or a borrowed known good meter) you can begin testing again to hopefully be able to pin point your charging issue

 

Thanks Chitwood.
I'll send for the necessary removal stuff and engage with that ASAP
Just installed replacement stator and bike restarted and idled ok
Obviously no chance of any readings on that til later this week, but the rotor issue takes priority anyway
Any other observations appreciated
Regards

 

this has got nothing to do with vacuum sync

 

Well I observed that when I had the 100w bulb in, and I turned it On, (and the charging system was working to some degree)? the rpm's would come down about 100, from 1200 to 1100, idle at running temperature.
When I replaced it with the 55w, (and with the now potential charging issue), it idled at 1400, and I did not have enough adjustment left on the idle control wheel, so I adjusted it down by the centre screw between the #s 2 and 3 carbs.
Thought I'd tweak the vac sync while I was at it cos it was slightly out.
There may very well be a vac leak somewhere (probably on one or two of the manifold boots, where historical inner tube repairs have now come off?), but it's just how I've chosen to manage it, til I take the carbs off again, and address the boot issues.
Receive 16mm metric fine bolt tomorrow to remove the rotor and have a look behind to replace the oil seal.
How is this part listed? Is it rotor shaft oil seal (which I cannot find listed)
Or is it 'left hand crankshaft oil seal'? of which I have found listed for the Maxim?

Regards

 

something's not right, the idle knob should close all the butterflies and stop the engine.

 

That's correct Polock. It does that. I overreacted with the vacsync a little, just to give myself a little bit more adjustment down on the knob itself
Regards

 

Using new leads on meter, results with replacement stator (and rectifier) on last Wednesday across battery electrodes. (battery only charged up to 12.1v)
Idling: 12.3v.......up to 2000rpm: 12.7v, ..... up to 4000rpm: 13.3v (light ON)

Yesterday, removed alternator, and meticulously cleaned it, and the shaft of any oil debris etc. (pics enclosed) Visually, the rotor looked ok to me, no burn marks, just a bit of shellac(?) missing from part of the wiring in one place. The oil seal at the back of the shaft, looked new. (I've got a new one, if I need to install it)
Meticulously cleaned the brush system also, and the rotor shaft cover plate of all crud.
Put it all back together, and checked across the fully recharged battery, ignition OFF: 12.95v
Engine ON, light ON, idling at 1100rpm: 14.63v..........2000rpm: 15.03v........4000rpm: 15.15v (are these readings too high, or just right for a GEL battery)

Took rotor cover off today, and using new leads for meter, measured ohmage across the two copper rings (with the ohms at the '200' setting, as advised)
The only two readings, that I could get were between 05.1, and 05.4 (ohms?), apart from the usual 10/11.6 to 15.3 etc, and flying off the end of the scale sometimes!??

Took readings of the 3-point stator block, and erratic once again, but did get 01.4 to 01.6 displaying the most

When similar on the 2-point brush/rotor block connector, the most displaying was 16.9 - 17.4, although it did flash once or twice, on the 3.8 - 4.6 briefly, then go off on it's own tangent again, up and up.....

Got a feeling that the stator is about right now(?), but there may still be an issue with the rotor/alternator?

Seems to be charging though (?) - just tested again, across the battery and here's the results:
Ignition off: 12.8v
Ignition on, light on, idling at 1050: 12.6v
Rpm's at 2000: 14.8v
Rpm's at 4000: 15.01v

Any observations from my latest tests please.........?

 

ps: forgot to mention, the stator was meticulously cleaned also~!

 

So it is slightly high as Yamaha specs it at 14.5V +/- .3V. Anything that will cause a voltage loss in the Brown wire that goes from the output of the ignition switch back to the Regulator assembly can cause this. The most likely is the ignition switch itself, but would also include the connectors for the ignition switch, the regulator assembly and associated wiring.

Since you seem to be still having some DMM irregularities I would suggest confirming the voltage with another meter.

 

reading should not go above 14.8 volts at 4000 rpm 15.1 not too bad keep an eye on it . this is indicative of a failing Voltage regulator

 

Thanks both.

It's interesting you mention the ignition switch/wiring, because last week when starting, the engine started, and the starter motor stuck 'on' whilst the motor was running so I turned off and restarted.
Also, historically (last time a few months ago), when I turned 'off', on the toggle switch on the right-hand assembly switch, (and/or the main switch key) it blew the ignition fuse, and it would not start until I replaced this.
Spraying electrical cleaner into the main switch key-holder, and the right-hand on/off switch toggle and push-start button switches seemed to rectify this issue, but from what you now inform could identify a connection issue, rather than a small amount of crud or damp affecting the system(?)
I'll start with the switch, and check all the connections (and blocks) involving the brown wiring between the switch and the rectifier itself, and report back any findings, with results. (it could be something quite simple, like a worn cut-off switch connector, or push-button worn? They have both had potentially 38-40 years of daily use)
I'll also try and source an alternative meter for my readings.

Later, and Thanks again!

Kind regards.

 

those grooves in the brushes shouldn't be there, can you find what made them? if they were flat the charging system would work better

 

I'll have a look at them again Polock.
And if they need to be flat, what is the best procedure to follow - nail file, for instance?
Regards

 

if the charging system works now, don't mess with them. now that you cleaned the rotor maybe check the brushes in a few hundred Km.
if you file them, they might be worse. normally they should be flat

 

Identified the very small oil leak as coming from the nozzle o-ring at 7 o'clock below the left hand crank shaft oil seal and housing.
Will replace both, when I can get the actual housing off?
Got the three retaining screws out with impact driver, but the actual whole housing won't budge.
How do I get this off please? (pics supplied)

Kind regards.

 

Replacing Alternator Seals in XJ700N with Pictures (applies to all XJ models)

The bearing may be a tight fit to the shaft. Use a bearing puller, but don't put too much pressure on the housing or it can crack.

 

Thanks k-moe
Just got to figure out what size puller is required (jaw width?). Is it at least 85mm, which is the distance across the diameter of two of the three flanges?
Regards.

 

My three-jaw puller is adjustable for width.

Looks like this:

 

Yeah. Thanks k-moe
Got set of 3 coming Mon/Tuesday
Regards.

 

Just had a look at the brush ends, Polock. I hadn't looked at them for about a fortnight since the bike has been off the road whilst waiting to be shipped to fabricators for new stainless exhaust system.
Before I took the bike off the road (removed the old exhaust system, with a 2" square hole in the top of the collector box!), I had done a 28 mile run to my sisters and back. (and it sounded like a Sherman tank on the way back - lol!) I had just cleaned all the rotor and stator etc.
The brush ends are now FLAT again, and not CONCAVE, as they were before I did the cleaning!
Just an observation I thought you might want to be aware of?
Could it be that a smear of oil, at the point where the brush ends engage with the rotor face had something to do with it? There was a tiny 'blob' of oil on the face of the rotor, and I recognised the leak as coming from the oil nozzle small 'o' ring top area.
Anyway, I also noticed that I had set out with a 12.4v reading across the battery (with the light ON), and when I returned the reading had risen to 12.8v (after about 24 miles' run)
Should get the removal tool for the alternator shaft housing, and the two (one big, and one small) 'o' rings arrive on Tuesday. Already got the oil shaft seal.
Also set up some leads, so I can do the 'current test', on the stator end connectors shown in thread earlier in pics. ( I can't do that though, until I have the bike back with new exhausts on July 3/4)

Regards.

 

never a bad idea to give that rotor a wipe off with brake cleaner before you close it up. just to get your grubby little finger prints off
don't get in on the stator

 

What's brake cleaner's equivalent in UK please?
Is it brake fluid?
Regards

 

here it is on Amazon UK https://www.amazon.co.uk/STP-GST72500ENP-Brake-Parts-Cleaner/dp/B009GKI88G

any automotive parts store should have it

 

Electric motor cleaner is a better choice. It won't damage the laquer on the alternator windings if you happen to mess up. It does cost more though.

 

Thanks both for options
I've got electrical cleaner which I've already used, so I'll go down that route
Regards

 

Just arrived.
'o' rings not til Mon/Tues though.
Shall proceed to removing shaft housing, in preparation. (and I shall be careful!)
Regards.

 

Is is the case that, you are only able to get two 'grabbers' on two of the lugs on the front of the housing?
The lug in front of the oil nozzle oil ring is very difficult to get an arm behind(?)

 

Rapidly losing patience with this.
Got the housing off ok, and the oil nozzle.
Then removed the old oil seal, opened the replacement one, only to find that I had been sent one that is too big.
To top it all I damaged the old one trying to remove it!
I cannot find the oil seal listed on the RJ Seca parts fiche, the two 'o' rings and the housing are listed but can't see the oil seal listed and numbered.
The one I was sent is listed as HL - 574567 (manufactured by Sifam, and also has 'SF44-B6 SEAL 26 on the label) and is in pic supplied, with old, damaged (so now useless) original next to it.
Please, does anyone know the actual OEM number for this rotor housing seal, and/or it's afterpart number?
Fed up of wasting money on parts that I cannot return once they've been opened?

Await your responses.
Regards.