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Kind of running

Discussion in 'Hangout Lounge' started by captluv, Apr 11, 2010.

  1. captluv

    captluv Member

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    Hey, all,

    Well, I finally got to tinker with my 86 maxim-x enough today to get it running somewhat, but here's the problems I had and maybe someone can help me diagnose what's wrong.

    So, from the beginning. Bike's been sitting for a year or so. I installed a fuel filter to keep the gas clean.
    Drained the float bowls.
    I put in some gas and a light load of Seafoam to help cleanse the dirty carbs (not sure about taking them off, may be a bit beyond my ability right now, especially considering I'd have to sync them after.

    So, bike started, was running kind of rough, but not too bad. The enrichment circuit had to be at about halfway position to stay running. But as soon as I touched the throttle it would die, even the slightest twist would kill it.

    So, I started it up again, let it run for about 10 minutes to let the Seafoam get into the system. Then the engine temp went past halfway and I got nervous and shut it off (got to do an oil change next week anyway).

    It's sitting now, with Seafoam working loose some of the old varnish, but can anyone help me solve the throttle issue? And should I be worried about the engine temp? New coolant? Thermostat?

    Thanks for reading my long post...
     
  2. captluv

    captluv Member

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  3. skeeter

    skeeter Member

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    sounds like clogged pilot circuits - what's the fun in owning an old bike if you don't get to clean the carbs? :lol:

    if you are EXTREMELY lucky - like in the "i found a lottery ticket in the gutter and it happened to be a brazillion dollar winner" sense of the word - your main jets are clear and you can start the bike on wide open throttle, let the throttle close and as the bike stalls out it will try to pull some sea-foam thru the pilot circuits and miraculously clean them and the bike will run fine after doing this 20 or 40 times. (that's, of course, assuming all your jets are correct, float heights are correct, etc.)

    as for the overheating, i got nothing - mine is air cooled.

    also - if you are going to let it idle for long periods - you might wanna look into a battery tender. i'm guessing the charging system for an '86 is similar to the older bikes and requires some higher RPMs to charge keep the battery charged. you could also check the charging system with a volt meter . . .

    good luck, take it slow and have fun.
     
  4. captluv

    captluv Member

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    Well, that's not encouraging.
    I understand that cleaning the carbs is the right thing to do and would be an uproarious good time, but at the moment my bike's in a friends garage in a town an hour and a half away so I only see it once a week and my time to work on it is very much limited. Unfortunately.
    I don't have a garage, so I'm kind of stuck there.

    So, anybody got any Seafoaming tips?
     
  5. shnuffy

    shnuffy Member

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    Not sure about the seafoaming...

    My suggestion: next time you see the bike, pull the carbs. They are easy to get out! I did it for the very first time ever last weekend and it took me all of 6 minutes.

    You can take the carbs home with you to clean them out there - and it IS fun. Take apart one, and put it back together.

    Then, one at a time, take it apart and examine the bits. They're probably filthy. Give each one a nice cleaning with carb cleaner, order some new parts from our boy chacal if you need them (4 new pilot jets running ~13.00). Bench sync your carbs (search for it) and throw them back on the bike. Night and day.

    And that's only the start! Your carbs could use a sweet overhaul, but even I'm not ready to do the "full-fledged" rebuild process, so I'm focusing on doing a very thorough cleaning and replacement of stripped bits or crapped up jets, etc... this stuff is easy enough and the satisfaction is like nothing else. Well, almost nothing else...

    I know it sounds like a lot, but it's really not that much and the pay off is well worth it. You'll probably get the bug and end up taking it as far as you can.

    Good luck!
     
  6. Alchai

    Alchai Member

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  7. captluv

    captluv Member

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    Not a bad idea, Shnuffy, may just do that.

    But after bench sync-ing, which doesn't look to be too hard, will I absolutely have to sync with a vacuum gauge or is bench-sync close enough?
    I don't have and can't afford to buy a carbtune.

    Will any manometer work? Could probably get one for a car through lend-a-tool at Autozone?

    I guess I'm just a little impatient because riding weather is already upon us and I'm really anxious to get on the road. Need to calm down a bit and do it right.

    Thanks to all for the help, btw.
     
  8. shnuffy

    shnuffy Member

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    I hear ya I want to get mine on the road ASAP too. Got some good news about insurance today too! (Well, and bad news... damn insurance.)

    I am also far too cheap to get a carbtune. That's crazy talk.

    You really should do a full sync after the bench sync, although the bench should be enough to get you running and idling. I repeat, you won't love your bike until you fully sync it. The good news is...

    You don't have to buy/rent a manometer, because you can make one for less than $10!

    Make a Two bottle sync tool and you can tune it yourself.

    XJBikes is nothing short of amazing.
     
  9. Alchai

    Alchai Member

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    Cheaper, but probably less accurate:
    You can make a 4 tube manometer instead of the two bottle one --
    You need clear tubing (Say.. 20-30 feet?)
    and 2 T joints. These don't have to be clear, they can be the metal kind or the plastic, whatever is cheaper.
    I made mine for like.. <12$

    Just join 4 tubes (cut to however long you need them) together and attach em to the ports. Put something like ATF in the manometer.

    Rudamentary ascii design:
    Like.. (upside down)

    (port 1)----T-----------T----(port 4)
    | |
    | |
    (port 2) (port 3)
     
  10. shnuffy

    shnuffy Member

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    I read about issues with the 4-bottle design, that it can lead to poor results and can be very difficult to get working correctly.

    I think it was in the two bottle sync tool thread.


    Sweet pic btw!
     
  11. Maxim-X

    Maxim-X Well-Known Member

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    As far as the overheating, did the fan kick on or did you shut it down before it had the chance? What condition is your rad in? I cleaned mine out once and could not believe the crap that was flushed out, that went for the whole cooling system for that matter. I ended up hooking up a garden hose to the inlet and started the water running, then started up the bike and let it run for a while, lots a crud came out.
     
  12. captluv

    captluv Member

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    Ooh, I didn't even think about the fan kicking on!
    But I am going to drain the radiator, flush, as well as change the oil this weekend.

    If the Seafoam doesn't loosen up some gunk in the carbs by then, I'll just rip them out and take them home to clean them.

    Can anyone testify to using lemon juice to boil carbs in instead of using carb cleaner? I've heard it works really well and is safe for rubber parts.
     
  13. Maxim-X

    Maxim-X Well-Known Member

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    If you are going to change the oil, a little Seafoam in the crankcase is supposed to be good for cleaning out any accumulated gunk. Just put it in, run it (til the fan comes on :wink: ) then let it sit overnight. Then do your oil change. I've read on different forums that you should not use it as an additive, just as a cleaner before putting in fresh oil.
    Also, I have a link to another forum that uses Pine Sol as a carb cleaner. The nice part is you don't have to pull the bank apart, you just use a bigger tub with more Pine Sol, plus your carbs come out smelling clean and disinfected! :D
    You can find it here:
    http://www.cb750c.com/modules.php?name= ... 66&start=0
     
  14. captluv

    captluv Member

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    Ok, guy, have a new problem/symptom, whatever.
    I have fuel leaking from the vacuum lines attached to the airbox and carb assembly.

    Any ideas? There's quite a pool of gas collecting on the garage floor and I'm hesitant to start the bike for fear of igniting some errant fuel stream.

    Help.

    I do have a fuel filter attached, but I don't notice anything leaking around it. Just from the lines coming off the airbox, etc.

    Thanks in advance.
     
  15. kevw

    kevw Member

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    Don't be cheap. buy a carb tune. Over the years it will pay itself back, and they are real easy to use.

    Top tip, if you are going to work on a bike, don't be scared or nervous.....jump straight in. If you have any concerns have a mechanic check your work. ( hey I'd be happy to help but I think I may be a few thousand miles away from you!)

    With your overheating....remember the bike isn't in danger until the needle is in the red. most bikes tend to sit about half way on the temp gauge when at full working temp. don't worry about overheating until the needle is getting over 3/4 postion, or near the red. Plus if the cooling system is in good order then the bike will never overheat idling, the fan should take care of it. (If you are really worried, rig up a household fan and point it straight at the radiator)

    anyway, I built a Kawa GPX last year that had been sitting, this had the same probs.
    Now seeing as an engine needs ignition, fuel and air to run diagnosis is pretty simple, new plugs takes care of the sparks, new air filter takes car of the air. (This is somewhat simplified!) so the last culprit is fuel.....sooooo

    Let the bike run and see if it will eventualy take a little throttle, if it does, gradualy build the revs until your giving it a good spanking close to the red line. sounds harsh but might just clear your problems.


    Chances are though you are gonna have to clean the carbs, so disconnect the airbox and remove it's mounting screws. you shouldn't have to remove the box as long as you have a little movement.
    disconnect throttle and choke cables. release the clips from the intake to the carbs.

    Top tip, get yourself some LONG screwdrivers. brilliant for carb work.

    now wiggle the carbs out. simple.

    follow one of the guids for cleaning the carbs, but remember, they are really delicate, so be gentle.
    refitting is the opposite of removal
    now, balance them on the bike, not the bench.

    If you have a good ear it is possible to get close simply by listening as you adjust the carbs, but I would suggest you beg/borrow/steal a set of gauges or a carbtune (E-bay) and go from there.

    now hopefully your hard work will pay off.
     
  16. skeeter

    skeeter Member

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    regarding lemon juice: i tried it and wasn't terribly impressed. i also think i ended up with some lemon pulp in places that came out in a later carb cleaning.

    i think i would try vinegar before i tried lemon juice again - not quite as acidic as lemon juice, but no pulp.

    i have heard good things about the pine-sol method, but haven't tried it.

    -------

    as for your gas issues - i'm not sure what you mean about vacuum lines on the air box - but it sounds like your carbs are flooding. is your air box full of gas? you should also check your oil for gas - if you have gas in your oil you should change the oil before running the bike. (course, you should fix the flooding problem first . . .)
     
  17. Maxim-X

    Maxim-X Well-Known Member

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    With gas coming out of the overflow pipes to the airbox it's definitely carb related (Sticky floats) as well as the petcock letting fuel through when the bike is not running. In other words, the gas is still flowing because the petcock usually operates on vaccum when the engine is running. When you shut off the bike the petcock should shut automatically because there is no longer any vacuum, unlike much older bikes that used to have ON-OFF-RESERVE.

    Some say this is more common on the side stand, but on mine it made no difference especially if it sat for a while.

    So much fuel backs up from bypassing the carb(s) that it litterally runs out the back of the carb and pools in the airbox and those vacuum lines (as you describe) will then drain the airbox so that you have a puddle just in front of the rear wheel.

    Mine was so bad that it used to fill the cases (gas smell in oil) and back up in the airbox so much that the plastic around the air filter would dissolve and this is where your puddle is coming from.

    Cheap fix: install an inline shut off that can be purchased from any small engine, lawn mower place so that you can turn off the gas completely. Can be a permanent fix, but ideally not the best solution.

    If you can smell gas in the oil get a jug of cheap oil and do an oil change run the bike for a while let it cool off and then do a change with good oil, that way you're sure the gas is out of the cases and you have the best oil in for riding.
     
  18. PainterD

    PainterD Active Member

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    Seafoam is not a murical cure in all instances. Somtimes it works to free up passeges when they have dirt in them, sometimes it doesn't. It takes time to clear out small journals sometime (if at all) so you may need to run the engine longer to let it do it's job (with a fan blowing at the engine so it doesn't over heat)
    Then sometimes you just have to jump right in and go thru a good carb cleaning episode to make things right. It's informative as well to see just how things work and are put together. Get the proper manual before you start this task. You don't want to be in the middle of it to find you don't know what goes where and don't have an answer. It just takes a little patience.
    There's a wealth of information on this forum and most answers are there if you search for them or ask questions. Good luck in your ventures!
     
  19. captluv

    captluv Member

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    Thanks again to everyone for the help. Here's where I stand today:
    Talked to a friend of a friend who has rebuilt several bikes including some Yamahas and he said to keep trying a heavy dose of Seafoam first and if that doesn't work, get into the carbs.

    I do have an issue with flooding. Is this due to dirty carbs and having to run the enrichment circuit up halfway? This is actually getting a little better as the Seafoam works, less and less choke is being required to run it, and where before it would die with the slightest touch of the throttle, I can now revv it to get the Seafoam into the system.

    And I do have a service manual, but can anyone point me to a carb disassembly with pictures? Remember they're the Mikunis.

    Thanks again in advance!
     
  20. SkeetaGrimshaw

    SkeetaGrimshaw Member

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    Hey captluv
    I've used these pic links:
    http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=3 ... carbs.html
    http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=3 ... carbs.html
    http://s169.photobucket.com/albums/u207 ... i%20Carbs/

    Along with these carb cleaning links:
    http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=1961.html
    http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=2908.html
    http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=8918.html
    http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=1 ... clunk.html

    I'm currently cleaning my carbs & am taking lots of digital pics to refer to for reassembly. The above links have been a great help so far.
    Note that the picture links are for the XJ900 Mikunis so I don't know how different they will be for your bike.
    I hope this helps.
     
  21. winter1555

    winter1555 New Member

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    Can't help you with the carbs. But i have the same bike and mine is tempermental when starting. It rarely stalls, but sometimes needs a little massaging to keep it running.
    On the radiator issue. The fan won't kick on until your almost into the red on the temp gauge. I took mine for a ride and let it idle in the driveway to see how far it would go befroe the fan kicked on. Now i don't freak out if I'm sitting in traffic watching the temp go up and wonder if it will overheat.
     
  22. captluv

    captluv Member

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    Ok, guys, I'm pretty sure there's gas in the oil, so I won't start it again until that's fixed. I took the oil that I'd drained out when I changed it a few weeks ago to recycle and noticed it smelled of gas as I poured it into the recycling tank.

    So, I've read that a leaky petcock could cause that. Does that mean I need to rebuild the petcock? Is it cheaper/easier to rebuild than to just buy another petcock and replace it?

    What else could be the cause of gas in the oil? I do still need to clean those carbs and it seems like I won't be able to avoid doing it, so that's coming down the pipe this week too. Could gummed up carbs cause gas to back up and get into the crankcase? Remember I did have some gas flowing out of the overflow tubes of the carbs last time I ran it.

    Oh, to just ride it around the block!
     
  23. chuckles_no

    chuckles_no Member

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    MUCH cheaper! A petcock rebuild is very easy and, at the most. A simple rebuild, and most common case scenario, is around 30 bucks. The leaky petcock will most definitely result in gas in the crank case if it is an internal leak. The gas keeps trickling into the bowls as it sits overnight, over flowing them. Until you rebuild the petcock, if it is leaky, clamp the hose at night. I use a miniature 'C' clamp.
    If you had gas coming out of the over flow on the airbox just riding around the block, you probably have an extremely leaky petcock. Or one that is stuck on PRI.
    So along with anything you'll need to replace in the carbs, rebuild that beauty.
     
  24. RickCoMatic

    RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

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    Unless you buy a OEM Petcock Kit; it will still leak.
    After trying and failing with 3 Kits, I recommend:

    Buy a New Petcock!
    You don't need the hassles.

    For $12.00 you can put an Inline Fuel Shut-off after the Petcock.
    Buy a $2.98 El Cheapo Black Nail Polish and "Paint" the Hose Clamps.
    The Hose Clamps will virtually disappear and it won't look All DisneyLand and Mickey Moused.

    Buy the Briggs and Stratton Shut-off.
    Don't buy the Rebuild Kit from anyplace but Yamaha and NOT without a Money Back Guarantee if it leaks.

    A New Petcock is the way to go.
    Badda-bing; Badda-boom!

    [​IMG]
     
  25. Alchai

    Alchai Member

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    Gas in the oil is, from what I've read on here, usually indicative of more than just carb issues. If I'm correct, wizards chime in here, gas in your oil is indicative of carb/petcock issues combined, possibly, with valve issues.

    Those are the most common things i've seen on the forums here...
     
  26. RickCoMatic

    RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

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    To get Gas in the Oil ...
    The Petcock is leaking of is set to Prime.

    You have to STOP the Flow.
    If there's NO Gas going to the Float Bows ... the Flooding Stops.

    First, Stop the Flooding, ...
    Then, do everything else!
     
  27. captluv

    captluv Member

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    I also read that stuck floats could cause gas leaking into the oil. But is it true that can't happen without the petcock being leaky as well? Is it possible the carbs are flooding due to stuck floats, resulting in a rich mixture, incomplete combustion and some gas spilling into the crankcase only while the motor is running? Would a carb cleaning fix that problem?

    Also, if I pull the fuel hose and point it toward the ground while the petcock is set to "on" would it leak noticeably if something's wrong with it?

    AND...what size sparkplug socket do the plugs need? I've tried several but can't seem to get it to hold.
     
  28. Maxim-X

    Maxim-X Well-Known Member

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    Captluv, I don't want this to sound harsh, but we are telling you what the problem is and you keep asking the same question with different wording.
    So, that being said if you do only one thing and tell us what happened then you be off and running to a solution.
    Here's the deal: go get a piece of fuel line that will reach from the petcock to the ground, put one end on the petcock and the other in a glass jar, pop bottle, whatever then point the lever on the petcock to run.
    Let it sit overnight (sometimes a slow leak will overfill the carbs) on either the centre stand or side stand, doesn't matter and if there is fuel in the container then you definitely have a petcock issue. If fuel runs out as soon as you take the fuel line off that goes to the carbs you must do something about it right away, even if you have to put a small piece of fuel line with a golf tee in it.
    Good luck and keep us informed.
     
  29. RickCoMatic

    RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

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    Put a Briggs and Stratton Gas SHUT-OFF Valve just to the right of the Petcock.

    When you Turn-off the Ignition ...
    Turn-OFF the Gas.
    S-I-M-P-L-E as that.

    Do that first.
    We'll Pull the Carbs off and Install New Float Valve Seats and Pins, ... later!

    You got Gas in the Oil.
    Turn-Off the Gas.
    Make it stay in the Fuel Tank and NOT sneak into the Crank Case.

    http://www.amazon.com/Briggs-Stratton-6 ... B0038U3JKM
     
  30. cutlass79500

    cutlass79500 Well-Known Member

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  31. captluv

    captluv Member

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    Ok, ready to install the fuel shutoff. But I have an inline fuel filter installed so should I put the shutoff on before or after it?

    Forgive me if I seem a bit redundant at times. I get to work on my bike once week because it's in my buddy's garage so I need to make sure I have all my ducks in a row before I get to working.

    Sniffed the crankcase this afternoon, definitely gas in the oil. Once I install the fuel shutoff, I will change the oil to some regular motor oil just to get it running again and work out the Seafoam that's been in the tank. Then, hopefully I'll be able to at least ride it around the block before removing the carbs for cleaning.

    Thanks again for all the help.
     
  32. RickCoMatic

    RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

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    If you get the Crankcase flushed-out nice, ...
    And, ... some new Quality Oil and Filter keeping the Mill lubed good.
    You could see if it'll start and pump some of that new Oil through it.

    If it goes ... don't go far.
     

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