Be The Bunny! Safe riding and motorcycle survival thread

That is a good habit to have, I mean look at it like this-why just use the front when you run the risk of breaking to hard and dumping the bike(especially on dirt), I had to learn that the hard way on my dirtbike, and why just use the back when it takes to long to stop. Just use both and you are good all the way around. I have never taken a motorcycle safety course, riding anything on wheels has just come naturally, and using both breaks together makes the most sense of all.....

 

well I'm quite new to riding bikes ( my first one isn't even running yet) but I encountered a potentially ugly situation from the "other side" of the story. It fits even more with the recent discussion of braking distance, so I thought I'd share.

Two days ago I was driving a 2 ton grain truck with a water tank loaded with 1800 gallons of water down a county road. Due to construction on a nearby highway, the road now served as a detour, increasing the traffic about 6 times. As I was driving, i noticed a bike approaching me from behind. The bike came up and passed me (both riders were wearing full gear from what I saw). However, once they passed me, they had to make a quick right turn to follow the detour, so they almost immediately began to brake. Even with brakes and downshifting, I had to pull completely into the oncoming lane to avoid them. I don't even want to imagine what could have happened if there was oncoming traffic that day, or anything else.

Regardless of which can stop quicker, a bike or a car, a weighted-down truck take significantly more stopping distance. being cautious includes being in front of a vehicle, not just behind.

I'm sorry if what I just said is the wrong direction for the thread or has no bearing at all. I simply wanted to show another side of saftey

 

Ha!

It is all about force.

Force = mass * accelleration.

As the bike and rider move, their combined mass has a certain amount of force at any given speed. To come to a halt, all that energy has to go somewhere.

When the brake is applied, it causes friction with the rotor. This friction cause the release of the energy moving the bike and rider, converting that energy into heat which the rotors and pads subsequently release to the atmosphere.

This functions nicely so long as the wheel maintains physical contact with the surface underneath, the road. If the tires are two wide, the weight of the vehicle is distributed over a larger area, reducing the mass needed to keep the tire firmly stuck to the road underneath resulting in leaving nice rubber tracks on the road and loss of control of the vehicle. Likewise, tires that are too narrow, will have to much pressure in too small an area and this too can cause in adequate traction resulting in a skid/loss of control.

So there is a careful balance between brake size, tire size, tire compound, and some other factors.

Ultimately, braking distance comes down to how much force has to be released? This is an issue of mass and velocity.

Our motorcycles weigh, what, 500 lbs or so? Adding in the mass of the rider you are looking at something under 800 lbs. Appropriate force has to be "excreted" over the two wheels. It is important that the front brake do most of the work so that the nose of the bike points down, increasing the pressure on the front wheel and keeping it firmly attached to the road. If primary braking happens on the rear, the nose lifts and, bye, bye traction.

With a car, you have much greater mass - something like 4 or more times? Distributed over the 4 tires.

So - the question is - which brakes can create the most heat while maintaining contract and control with the road/vehicle? While the bike may have less mass and thereby force, the car is much easier to control while that force is being dissipated.

 

I dont pass a vehicle unless it is absolutly neccessary. Mostly because I dont want to look like an idiot for having to stop quickly and turn unexpectatly like in the above story.

 

Re: Be The Bunny! Safe riding and motorcycle survival threa

While you are at it, teach your self to drop a gear or two at the same time. See what happens when you are zooming along at 50 in fifth and suddenly drop two gears straight and let out the clutch. If you do it right, there'll be a nice jolt and possibly some rubber left on the road as you slow rather dramatically. If you practice this along with applying the brakes, you can dramatically increase your braking power, something very handy in an emergency, but you have to master it first.

 

Re: Be The Bunny! Safe riding and motorcycle survival threa

I always engine brake for just that reason - I figure if I make it a habit, I won't have to think about doing it if I ever have to panic stop.

 

Re: Be The Bunny! Safe riding and motorcycle survival threa

That's why we ALL, experienced or novice, need to PRACTICE it occasionally. Find a deserted stretch of road; cruise along at your normal pace (55, 60, whatever) then issue yourself a "panic stop" command and see just exactly how quickly you can get stopped. Do it three or four times; practice any time you have the opportunity. It can really save your bacon; if you have the rapid stop part down you can better concentrate on the circumstances that necessitated it.

 

Re: Be The Bunny! Safe riding and motorcycle survival threa

There have been a few times when riding that I have had to slow down (always gradually) in a turn. During these times I never use the front brake and just apply as little back brake as possible or engine brake. I was just wondering if I should consider using both brakes at these times or if it is better to stick to just the back?

I figure using the front could cause a bad spin out whereas using the rear will at most just try to straighten out the bike.

 

in a situation such as that you can still use both brakes; but you need to be extra careful with the front and not over-apply it.

If there is gravel or loose sand spread across the turn then even more care is called for of course.

 

Re: Be The Bunny! Safe riding and motorcycle survival threa

tumbleweed_biff, MiCarl is right about the theoretical stopping distance not having anything to do with weight (or mass more specifically). I forgot this and worked it out, the mass in you F=ma equation cancels out because the Force of friction F_fr = c_fr*m*g.

Also, you don't pitch backward when using the rear break, because pitching forward is a result of the torque (force perpendicular to a moment arm) around the cg of the bike. If you apply a backward force where the tire meet the road that always results in a pitching the bike forward, regardless of which tire. If you could make the bike front wheel drive the bike would always pitch up when accelerating, because the F_fr is acting in opposite direction (you can see this in FWD/RWD cars). You use more front brake *because* the bike pitches down when braking and that wheel has more weight on it, not *in order to* pitch the bike forward and keep traction.

 

Re: Be The Bunny! Safe riding and motorcycle survival threa

This is way off topic but I bet if you switch the orientation of the rear suspension with the swingarm that you could actually get the bike to pitch up by using the back break. Assuming you had a magical drivetrain that would elongate with the suspension.

Also the mass of the bike matters when you start looking at the shifting of the bikes weight on the tires during breaking.

The coefficient of friction is usually proprotional to several factors like tempurature, surface texture and normal force (force perpendicular to the surfaces equal to mass * gravity). So I would say that it is a mistake to discount the mass of the bike.

In some previous posts there has also been some confusion between Force (an agent that will cause a change in motion or additional stresses if couteracted by other forces), inertia ( mass * velocity - the resistance of a body to a change in motion) and kinetic energy ( 0.5 * mass * velocity * velocity - the measure of work associated with changing a body's velocity )

 

Re: Be The Bunny! Safe riding and motorcycle survival threa

I always try and straighten out for anything more than very light braking.

I believe that this is part of the reason the MSF teaches to go through a curve on the outside-inside-outside track. Gives you room to straighten up if you find trouble.

 

Re: Be The Bunny! Safe riding and motorcycle survival threa

Actually, it makes no difference; you have to look at the entire system. Braking makes the center of gravity want to rotate around the point where the braking force is applied, which is the contact patch at the bottom of the tire. If you think about it that way, you'll see that the front end will dip no matter what the suspension looks like.

 

The front end won't dip with an "Earle's fork." It will rise or stay level.

(An Earles fork has what is effectively a short, forward-facing swingarm that the wheel is mounted on; it pivots from the ends of the forks which "sweep back" for that.)

 

Re: Be The Bunny! Safe riding and motorcycle survival threa

Braking has nothing to do with the bike pitching up/down etc. You can keep the attitude of the bike from pitching by having rigid suspension (or anti-dive valves!).

The force weight still transfers onto the front tire because the center of mass is above the road surface. Only way to change that is to have a magic mass that is below the road surface.

 

Re: Be The Bunny! Safe riding and motorcycle survival threa

The way I was thinking about it was like this, Imagine you running along and your dragging a wheel behind you that is tied to your neck. If the wheel stops your head is jerked back and you'd fall on your behind.

Because the wheel is connected to your neck which is higher then your center of gravity. If the wheel were tied to your foot you would fall forwards onto your face.

I guess what I was trying to say was that it would be possible to make a bike that would pitch up when you braked but it would require that you make things so that the rear wheel was acting on a point on the frame above the center of gravity. Of course this sort of setup is not practical at all.

 

Well I definitely *misspoke* when I talked about pitching, I was thinking forces and moments on the system but intertwined that with the dynamics of a "typical" motorcycle. But viewed statically, when braking there will always be a torque applied to the system that increases the weight (force)on the front wheel. Braking in the rear wheel only can't cause the front to lose traction. The torque that results from the neck/rope/tire example is in the same direction, and the angle the rope makes with the ground would never increase.

 

I will make one point on the braking distance issue and then move on from that as we are getting off topic a bit. Mass is absolutely a factor as the amount of mass combined with the velocity determines how much energy *must* be gotten rid of in order to bring said velocity to zero. Stopping distance is determined by the rate of energy dispersal and the amount of energy to be released. As the amount of energy is defined partially by the amount of mass ...

Back on the topic of safety ... I think practicing emergency stops is a great idea. For new riders, don't try the emergency stop at first, get out somewhere safe, and build up to it. Practice stopping faster and faster at 30mph, then move up to 40 or 45, etc. As you develop control at the slower speeds, try it faster until you can successfully perform a panic stop. Make absolutely certain that there isn't any gravel where you are doing this, or other hazards, until you have basic mastery. As you practice with the brakes and get good there, then practice adding in the downshifting.
I down shift all the time, have been since I started driving all those years ago, so it is second nature for me.

For the person who mentioned slowing down on the curves ... you should ALWAYS slow down to the speed you need to safely negotiate the curve/turn BEFORE you enter the turn. Use the outside-inside-outside method of lane use during the turn and do NOT look where you ARE, but where you are GOING. Pointing your nose where you are going helps to keep you from over/under steering and you will control the turn much better. As you proceed through the turn, you should then be able to actually accelerate some which will increase your traction. Braking during a turn is a common source of accidents for bikes, particularly among new riders.

 

Along with thicker gloves, boots, and maybe a sweat shirt under the leather jacket, the new riders practicing riding skills that push their personal "envelopes" of braking and cornering, should have a witness/helper in case something goes wrong. We don't want anyone to go out to a remote area, dump a bike, flood the carbs, and be bleeding or hurt.

 

Re: Be The Bunny! Safe riding and motorcycle survival threa

Been thinking on the statement that braking ONLY depends on the coefficient of friction and NOT mass or the number of wheels. As far as theoretical considerations for braking a bike, I think it is much to complex to be useful in any practical situation, except for explaining what happened after the fact. Here is my reasonning.

Braking power depends on to many factors and the actual coefficient of friction is a value that is hard to predict in any given situation: is one tire skidding (locked partially or completely), is there a drum brake or is every brake a disk brake(drums brake less when hot because of metal expansion) and what not. If the tires are not skidding at all, the only factor belongs to the braking pads and drum/disc. But then you need to know how much braking can be applied before a tire starts to skid. Then the "stickiness" of the tire comes into the equation. And the tire might be more "sticky" if more weight (mass) is applied to it to increase the area of the sticky surface on the road. The weight and the number of wheels do come into consideration as far as skidding/locking wheels is concerned, I believe. That's why we put sand bags in the trunk of a car at times, when there is snow on the ground. The extra weight helps the traction. That is why we have four wheel drives too: the number of tires helps the traction.

The only data that is truly helpful is the practical, controlled braking tests and they only yield average values.

 

Re: Be The Bunny! Safe riding and motorcycle survival threa

Ding *** Ding **** Ding **** Ding

We have a WINNER!

Give that man a cigar!

That was what I was trying to get at before ... there many, many variables in dealing with the issue of getting rid of the force moving a vehicle. Some cars will stop dramatically faster. Some slower. But one thing is certain: a lesser experienced car driver will be able to stop much more safely in an emergency situation than a comparably experienced biker, a bike needs far more skill to stop safely in an emergency. A cage driver just hits the brakes and holds onto the wheel - and if their alignment is good, they can even do it with their arms thrown across their face and screaming in terror "we're gonna die!!!" A biker has to do much more. Every biker needs to know how fast *their* bike will stop under what circumstances and how fast *they* can bring it to a halt.

 

Re: Be The Bunny! Safe riding and motorcycle survival threa

Mike,
Why not just keep more distance between your bike and whatever is in front than if you were in a car?

Seems the simplest way to be safer. I can't measure very accurately the number of feet to the car in front when I'm driving anyway.

 

Of course! I try to keep a substantial distance from things. I shoot for the 2 second rule at a minimum and prefer 4.

 

Re: Be The Bunny! Safe riding and motorcycle survival threa

Thought ya'll might get a kick out of this, he makes some very good points though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L05XsP7TfP0

 

Just bumping the thread- - - Be the BUNNY !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ghZ2Ng0KCg

 

8O WOW!! This is sobering. :cry: Bill wrote this 11 months and 28 days prior to his accident. Let it be known, take all the precautions suggested and then still be aware that we have chosen a hobby with inherent dangers. Take riding courses and PRACTICE what you learn. Bill had years of riding with tons of miles and he still attended safety courses. I practice figure 8s, circles, serpentines, emergency braking and I even get her sideways in a controled safe area so when it happens (it has and will again) I know how the bike will react and I maintain better control. These drills have saved me several times allowing me to re-act with a calm controled response. 8O Keep your eyes and ears wide open and always expect the unexpected!! Be safe and ride smart.

 

It's Rabbit Season 2010 !!

Let all new folks here know about this and the rear brake delamination thread.

 

Lots of Great advice for us new riders and old ones as well...

no mater what Vehicle I am riding/Driving in or on I always act defensive it gets on the nerves of those that are driving... but I cant help it... I am come into so many close calls in my cage that I am starting to be more defensive and less aggressive...

Always Research Research the Gear before you Buy it!!! And Read the Customer reviews as well they give allot of good insight into the quality of the product...

 

Thanks TIME!

Every new member needs to go back to page 1 and read this one all the way through; especially the new RIDERS.

We don't have a "Safe Riding" forum, which is why I started this thread, back in '08. LOTS of good contributions since.

 

Bumping this excellent thread.

I started riding in summer of 2010 with my dad who was experienced but didn't know any better - put me out on the highway way too early and I had a lowside at about 30 mph. I had been riding without anything more than a helmet up until that day when my brand new leather jacket came in the mail. Saved my skin, literally. Sliding off the road was mitigated by the leather, though I shattered my elbow when I slid into and over the curb. Ouch.

There were about 7 different factors that created that wreck . . . lack of experience, being beyond my comfort zone, uncomfortable with turning at low speeds, target fixation (the car turning right into my path), inability to manage brake and clutch on a hill, too heavy/powerful of a bike, desire to impress my father . . . you name it.

I took the MSF class in the fall and have been tooling around the neighborhood whenever the XJ is assembled enough to allow it. I wear as much gear as I can afford, even on 94 degree Georgia afternoons. Looking forward to taking it easy this spring and building some skill.

 

Also don't forget YOU -

YOU need to drive for the weather conditions
YOU need to keep this guy :twisted: on your shoulder, telling you to go faster, in check
YOU need to wear the proper gear that will save you in a motorcycle accident. Only expose skin you don't mind losing 8O

I drive defensive as heck, never trusting any cagers. But 2 weeks ago I went down, because I was driving too fast on a freshly wetted road, and lost traction braking before an off-ramp, distracted because I was trying to beat the thunderstorm home.

Full Gear saved me from rash and serious injuries. And I'm learning from my mistakes. I got distracted, and missed the obvious dangers that were right in front of my face

 

Don't forget you have a horn - Use it!

I was driving up Interstate 95 on my way home last night in the far left lane. The guy in the car next to me, without warning, proceeds to change lanes in my direction; on top of me.

I try and make sure I'm aware of my surroundings at all times and I spotted him right away. A quick blast of my horn and he 'woke up' and re-positioned himself.

-Otter

 

I have to second this one. Additionally, there's a reason there are videos/purchasing guides, to choose the right size of gear. Focusing on the road should be paramount, not how tight your helmet is, or how loose your gloves are.

 

I always ride with a full face helmet, leather boots/gloves, jeans and a textile armored jacket.

I will never ride with less.

Dress for the slide not the ride!

 

When coming up to a cage on a side road your passing, watch his front tires, if they're moving slow down, if they're stationary procede cautiously. You may look the driver in the eye, but I gauante he didn't "see" you.

 

Began teaching my wife to ride early this year and my first lesson to her was "if it has more than 2 wheels or 2 cylinders....it's on the road to kill you"

Its not just cagers you have to watch for. I got cut-off by another bike going into a curve at 60mph. Short stretch of hwy where 2 lanes merge into 1 and then goes into a curve, other bike comes up on my right, lanes merge, he passes me in the single lane, brakes and cuts across just in front of me to start the turn.

 

This thread is fantastic. Absolutely fantastic. So thanks, Fitz, for starting it, thanks, all, for pitching in! The more you post, the more I'll read, so keep it coming!

 

I think ALL potential bike riders should have to take a mandatory training course. At least you learn some self defense/preservation moves before you hop on that bike and charge head long into a world where the cagers are out to get you. Its better than hopping on a bike and hopping for the best

 

A few months ago I nearly got squashed at a stop light. Before that, I always left a nice cushion between myself and the car in front of me. On this occasion, the stop light was at the bottom of a hill, around a blind bend. The driver behind me was smart enough to leave a decent gap between us. The car behind him failed to stop. As I watched for the light to turn, I heard the the crash. The car 2 spots back rear-ended the guy directly behind me! Thankfully, the guy behind me didn't come forward any. Scariest thing I've ever heard on the bike!

Since then, I have mad it a habit to leave a good 10-15 feet between myself and the leading car at a stop light/sign. I feel this leaves me enough distance for evasive maneuvers, if need be. Once I have my separation in front, I keep a steady watch in the mirror to be sure that the car behind me is not coming in hot.

Give it a try, it might alarm you how fast the car behind you approaches...

 

In today's world that is certainly true.

Back when I started riding there simply was no such thing; but the roads were a heck of a lot less crowded in the late '60s.

I know a few alumni of the current MSF courses taught at the local community college; and it does produce good skilled riders without any of the bad habits that someone like myself might have accumulated over the years.

 

Used to be in Oregon, to get your mc endorsement, you just got on and rode until you felt you could pass the test. Now the only way to get an endorsement is to take the training course offered at most community colleges. There is also a medium and advanced course offered, I think. Was considering taking a class to stay fresh. I have been riding since '76 and know that there is always room for improvement.
You can't decide how the other guy in his 2000+ pound automobile will behave on the road, but avoiding his bad decisions gives some options to staying alive.

 

Here in PA, you can apply for your permit at any time. The license test can be taken the normal through-the-DMV way, or you have the option of taking a free safety course that, should you pass, grants you your license post-course. I can't see why folks skip out on the class; it's a no-brainer, as far as I'm concerned.

 

The other "Guy dying by my house" thread reminded me of something that happened to a coworker recently.

Novice rider. Brand-spanking-new Suzuki 600cc crotch rocket (mistake #1 as far as I'm concerned, although he'd ridden a friend's Ninja apparently without incident). Don't remember the exact details, but he was trying to make a turn into heavy traffic. There was a depression where the road he was turning from sloped downward and met the cross street, and apparently he was having trouble getting a smooth start.

Long story short, (I guess) he gave it too much gas, drove into oncoming traffic, plowed into the front of a Mercedes and cartwheeled over the car. Cops showed up expecting to find a corpse, only to find him standing on the side of the road nursing his shattered wrist.

When the tow truck arrived to pick up what was left of the bike, they tried to pick it up... and came away with part of it. The brand-new $9000 bike was broken in half.

Don't think he'll be riding again for a while.

 

First - thanks for this thread, its very important.

I am a newbie (2 years riding) and took the MSF class at a community college (high school w/ ashtrays as my wife likes to say) prior to getting my XJ.

One thing the instructor told us that stuck in my head as he handed out our certificates - "Here ya go, you are now certified to drive 15mph in a parking lot - be safe"

I wear a day-glo construction vest over my black leather. People at work call me the 'crossing guard'. I tell them (truthfully) that even being lit up like a x-mas tree I still have people that don't see me.

I have never heard a cager say after an accident "I never heard him".
Loud pipes are bogus - stay out of blind spots and BE SEEN!!!

 

This is my second season riding street as well. I too took the safety class and enjoyed it very much. I do believe that some of their tips have helped me out of harry situations a time or two!

"high school w/ ashtrays" although quite funny, its really quite ignorant as well. I go to class at Comunity College of Beaver County for Air Traffic Control. CCBC is the #1 program for ATC in the country!

For those who don't know, ATC is the guys directing plains in the air, not the guys on the taxi ways with lights and flags. I might also add that its a 6 figure salary!

I'm fairly certain your comment was meant for nothing but humor. I mean no harm feeling either but I have heard far to many discrediting remarks towards community colleges, that is all.

 

schmuckaholic, you described exactly the trickyist part of getting used to my recently acquired suzuki sv1000, a low speed 90 with uneven pavement, with the clip-on bars the bump in the road jerks your wrist/throttle and it wants to straighten up and not turn, all you can do is feather the clutch. hope that guy's all right

 

Here's another summertime fun time hazard:

MANHOLE COVERS.

SLIPPERY When HOT!!! Manhole covers, sitting getting superheated in the summer sunshine, get HOT. Hot enough to drastically affect traction, even when dry. They get downright slippery when they get that hot.

Add to that the fact that in some intersections, there may be multiple covers, positioned at very inconvenient locations if you happen to be cranked over trying to turn the corner. High pucker factor.

Stay vigilant and as always, Be The Bunny! Ride Safe.--- Fitz

 

To add to fitz thought:
Railroad tracks as well! I was driving through Brantford back a couple years ago on the 400, and almost lost it at that one intersection with all the tracks crossing and bending in the lanes.

 

Re: Be The Bunny! Safe riding and motorcycle survival threa

my suggestion would be to practice panic stops.....ever so gently increasing the level of "panic" so that you are comfortable with what the bike does during such a stop. I'm not saying go 90 mph and lock everything up, I'm saying find a nice flat open paved area and gradually increase your comfort zone with panic stops because you may need to do it for real some day. Motocross riders have a distinct advantage in this regard, they are always locking up the back brake and "controlling" the slide and instinctively know how their bike reacts during such maneuvers. During regular stops with street bikes, the front brake is really the key stopper and the back is more of an "assist". BUT if you have to stop fast - then you need to use both, learning how much force to each brake and knowing how control the bike during that stop in my opinion is the key to a panic stop. I know someone is going to say that riding a street bike is totally different and you should never lock up your brakes but I would rather do that than have my face hit the back of some truck (assuming of course there is not a viable escape route).

Ideally I would practice this on a dirt bike where the ground is sooo much more forgiving, and of course you will be properly dressed from head to toe during such riding. I for one am grateful that I have been dirt bike riding since my first Honda CT50 (then to YZ80 etc..). when I was younger I pressed the edge. I no longer do that because for some reason I now feel "mortal" lol. I sure think it helps me today though. Somebody who has never ridden and buys a 1000cc performance street bike is a scary thing to me. my advice, get dressed properly......practice some light panic stops on your street bike and go dirt biking if you can. On top of all that, always remember.....IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE YOUR FAULT. Always be thinking and keenly aware while riding on a street with bigger & heavier vehicles than yours.

Oh yeah.....my number ONE rule when riding a street bike......It's my opinion that the best way to die on a street bike is to be going 60 mph and following the car in front of you too closely, cars have GREAT brakes, your reaction time will not be fast enough, you will probably die.... so here it is

***NEVER FOLLOW THE CAR IN FRONT OF YOU TOO CLOSELY***......I can't believe how many riders I see doing this!!

 

another hazard I found this past weekend while the wife and I were out on the bike - that black goop they put on the road to fill cracks!

It's quite slick when it's 95 degrees and sunny out!

We got a little sketchy through a turn but stayed up. Just one more thing to look out for.