Complete XJ650 Rebuild

Temporarily connect the two big posts with a conductor, such as a screwdriver, wrench, or quarter.

It's not directly indicative of a solenoid problem but does eliminate or confirm a problem with the starter motor.

If the starter does not spin then you have a starter problem.
If the starter does spin then you need to check for voltage aat the small solenoid terminals when the starter button is pressed.

 

What he ^ said.

Gary H.

 

Alright, so when I jump the solenoid terminals, the Starter Motor does make a sound. But not I am at a stand still:/
If I am understand this correctly, When I hit the switch, the Cut off relay makes a click but the current is not going thru the Solenoid right?

Not sure where to go from here, everything in the diagram is connected except the brake switch.
Could I have my starter wired backwards or something (It is after market and the colors don't match)

 

It's possible but the oe starter only has one thick (+) power source from the solenoid. Ground (-) is through the case/engine. Make sure the (+) power bolt is insulated through the case. Post a pic of the aftermarket starter.

Gary H.

 

Hav you opened the starter?
It is possible to clock the brushes incorrectly and spin the starter the wrong way.

 

That ^ would be my next guess but he said...

What wires?

Gary H.

 

I have to assume that he means the starter solenoid since the starter only has one wire going to it.

 

I apologize guys. When I said starter, I meant switch:/
My RUN/Kill - Start switch is after market and I was questioning if I had that wired incorrectly.

Again, when I jumped the Solenoid, the Starter made a sound and I can see the Crankshaft spin (Pickup Coil spins), so I am hoping that is alright.
I have everything wired like I do in that SIMPLE diagram above. I just don't see a Relay in it, so I am wondering if that is messing me up.
Kinda running off two diagrams The Simple one and the FULL COLOR diagram attached.

So this was a thought that I had, let me know if I am off base.
Since I have the Red/White running through the Relay but NO Clutch Switch (Since that also goes into the relay), could that be messing up my signal to the Solenoid?

Sorry I am doing this without pictures and occasionally using the wrong wording, I know it is making it confusing. Just trying to get a step further each day and this is my only source for answers.

How do I know if I have a Relay wired correctly? I have no diagrams for these little gold boxes.

Tonight I will follow up with some pictures and see if my idea worked.

I really do appreciate all the help, the amount of knowledge I have gained from here is amazing!

 

I think figured out what was wrong with all my starting system and I am embarrassed to say I believe it was due to my battery not having a full charge.

I left the charger on over night and everything seemed to work properly the next morning. I do believe I fried my Starter Cut-Off relay because that does not click anymore. So I by-passed that and I can get the Starer to spin.
So I moved onto my Headlight circuit and hit a road block.

Everything seems to work all the way up to the actual headlight. The terminal that comes from the light (Yellow/ Green/Black) when I plug that in and turn the key, my headlight fuse blows. When it is unplugged I have power running through the whole circuit problem free and I can read 12v at the green and yellow wire prior to plugging it into the actual headlight.

I also checked the headlight manually to make sure it wasn't broken or anything and it works.

I have no exposed wires, I triple checked that. Used two different controls for the LH (old and new) and the same thing happens:/

Any ideas?

 

Update and hoping for some help.

Everything above about my Starter, Solenoid, and Switch. All good
I think It was just me being stupid and not having a fully charged battery, needing to by pass some relays, etc.

Currently when I hit the starter switch, the Starter Motor Turns and I can hear/see the engine turning. I can hear air being pushed through the cylinders, so I imagine compression is doing alright. I was messing around all day with trying to get it started but no luck.

I connected the tank to my carbs and the only time I can get gas to flow is on Prime, nothing when ON is ... well on.
Also I am not sure where this second "out" is connected t0o? The small one on top of the Petcock.


A buddy of mine stopped over and tried to help me out. We figured out my "Left" Ignition coil was a lot hotter then my right one.
Spark plugs from 1 and 4 spark, but 2 and 3 DO NOT. (Which the wires for those are coming from the Left Ignition Coil).

I am just at a cross roads where I have no idea what or where to go. I opened the screws on each Carb bowl and gas is coming out so I believe I have gas in there but is gas supposed to go to anything else in the engine?
My air box is not connected at the moment, I am just trying to get the engine to fire.

 

It's a vac port. There should be a vac hose from the port to one of the vac ports on the intake boots (usually #3).

Gary H.

 

So I am trying to figure out if my ignition coils are bad or not and was reading this thread.
http://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threads/how-to-ignition-troubleshooting.21932/

I tried this test
5a. Switch the Orange and Grey wires from the pickups (6-position TCI plug) at the TCI. If the sparking and non-sparking pairs of plugs swap (i.e. if you had spark on 1/4 and not on 2/3 prior to swapping Orange/Grey and now have spark on 2/3 and not on 1/4) then you've got a bad pickup. If this didn't make a difference, swap the wires back and go to 5b.

And that is exactly what happened. I can get spark on 2/3 after I switch the Orange/RW and Gray/RW (At the terminals coming out of the coils themselves)

Is there anyway to test my Pickup? Replace them or fix them?

 

Also when I do have everything wired correctly the Coil that has the gray wire going into it (2 and 3) it starts to heat up when the key is turned on but the other coils does not.
Out of my TCI box, I get 12V on the orange wire (coming out of the 4-position connector) but nothing out of the gray. Am I supposed to get a reading off the gray?

 

IGNITION PICK-UP COILS:

One of the nice things about the stock XJ electrical systems is the transistorized (maintenance free) ignition systems.......no points to set or timing to adjust (except on 1986 XJ700-X models). All of those dreadful chores are handled for you, automatically, via the IGNITION PICK-UP COILS SYSTEM, and further down the line, via the TCI CONTROL MODULE. These components are generally very reliable, almost to the point of being bulletproof, and as mentioned, are truly "plug-and-play" devices that need no periodic maintenance once installed. However, they are quite susceptible to damage via electrical shorts or voltage surges (i.e. if you jumper the battery incorrectly, etc.).

Checking pick-up coils: the resistance across each pair of lead wires (at the TCI) should be as follows. NOTE: if both coils are out of specifications, suspect a pinched or shorted black ground wire, which is a shared ground for both of the pick-up coils on most models. It is very unlikely (although not impossible, especially in a case of improper jump-starting, etc.) that BOTH pick-up coils would expire at the same time!

A simple test to see if the coils are working, at all is to place a voltmeter (preferably an analog unit) across the Grey or the Orange wire to the Black wire. Energize the system and watch for voltage pulses as you rotate the reluctor past the pickup. This can be done by hand or with the starter.......we'd recommend using the hand method so that the pulses are slow enough to see. These "pulses" are what the TCI "black box" counts and interprets when "deciding" when to fire the ignition coils.

NOTE: the orange lead wire is the trigger wire for the #1/#4 ignition coils, while the grey lead wire is the trigger for the #2/#3 ignition coils.


120 ohms +/- 10% for all XJ650 Turbo models, XJ700 all models and XJ750-X models, XJ900RK, RL, N/FN, and F models, and XJ1100 models.

650 ohms +/- 20% for all XJ550 models, 1982-84 XJ650 Maxim, 1982 XJ650RJC Seca (Canadian, yics-engine), and all XJ750 models.

700 ohms +/- 20% for all 1980-81 XJ650 models and 1982 XJ650RJ (non-yics engine) models.

720 ohms +/- 20% for all XS1100 models

 

TCI UNITS:

Yamaha (thankfully!) used a TCI (which stands for Transistor Controlled Ignition) system on all XJ-series bikes to control the coils, timing, spark advance, etc. A TCI unit is an "early" version of the now-common electronic control systems that are used on virtually all modern vehicles of almost every type, and even these early versions are completely maintenance-free and very rarely cause problems...........which is a good thing, because original TCI boxes are no longer available new.

When engine performance problems develops, many people immediately suspect that the cause may be within the "black box" workings of their TCI unit, which is unlikely. The factory service manual gives "instructions" for diagnosing TCI problems, and it basically says "test every other possible cause for your problem and if no other cause for the problem exists, only then should you "suspect" TCI failure, but before you buy a replacement, first try to find a known, working TCI unit from a similar bike and plug it in on the problem bike, and see if the problem goes away............"

Well!

There are three main problems that TCI units succumb to after years of reliable service:

1) bad solder joints on some of the internal components (known as "cold solder joints") result in the component pieces coming loose from the circuit board, and thus they can no longer perform their function reliably (or at all).

2) component failure......a blow-up transistor, a burned circuit trace, etc. This situation can develop if you have a short-circuit in your electrical system, or hook up your battery or jumper cables incorrectly, etc. TCI units do not like "big blue sparks" in the electrical system (except at the spark plugs, of course!).

3) another common failure of these units occurs if the TCI is continuously grounding the ignition coil (i.e. its output driver is shorted). You can verify this situation with an ohmmeter with the following tests:

- disconnect the 2-pin plug at the ignition coil and measure from the orange or grey wire to the chassis. You should see very high resistance. This should be pretty close on both the working and non-working channels.

- if you read a few ohms of resistance or less, then the TCI is bad. A shorted driver will also make the ignition coil run very hot and may ruin the coil.

4) dirty external terminal connections.


Bad solder joints can be repaired by someone who is skilled at that sort of diagnosis and repair, and even individual circuit components can be replaced, but it's tough to find someone in the modern world of "pitch-and-plug" skill-sets who actually has the skill and patience to do this type of work. Yamaha gave absolutely "zero" electrical specifications for checking the condition of the TCI units, besides the afore-mentioned "check everything else first" type of diagnosis.

But you can perform a simple set of tests to determine whether your TCI unit is good or not, without having a second, known good unit to install in place of the suspect unit. Although these instructions were written for XS owners, the exact same thoughts apply to the TCI units on the XJ-series of bikes:

http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38224&highlight=tci+repair

The above is stolen, borrowed or even plagiarized from Randy Rado's site before it went away. It does require an analog meter as digital multi-meters do not show the swing of the needle that is required to test it.

"Using a voltmeter set on 12VDC, connect the positive meter lead to the Orange or Grey coil lead at the TCI. Connect the negative meter lead to the black (negative) lead at the TCI. Turn on the ignition. Voltage should come right up to about 10 - 11VDC. Crank the ignition and observe the meter. Look for a wide voltage swing during cranking. A strong swing indicates that the pickups and TCI are working OK and your trouble is between the TCI and the plugs. Possibly a bad ballast resistor, bad coil, bad plug cap or just corroded connections. Repeat this test for both Orange and Grey coil leads."

All of the XJ-series TCI units are of the "4RO" style as described in the above article.

Video here:

http://s307.beta.photobucket.com/us...4.html?&_suid=1354140627504033601775276167517


And if the above isn't enough, if you feel the need to get medieval with your TCI unit, well, then it doesn't get much better than this:

http://www.jetav8r.com/Vision/IgnitionFAQ.html


By the way, the TCI needs a minimum of about 10VDC to operate………and while the starter will spin the engine over like mad with low voltage, the TCI falls on its face at less than 10 volts…which can lead to all sorts of confusion when a battery low-voltage condition occurs!.

 

IGNITION COILS AND RELATED:

OEM and aftermarket IGNITION COILS replace damaged, cracked, or out-of-spec originals to help "light that XJ fire" under your...well, you know. Twenty-plus year old original coils can suffer from a variety of ailments that prevent them from doing their job, including burned or shorted internal windings, hairline cracks in the outer cases, or damaged and destroyed plug wire leads.

NOTE: although all of the following is repeated below under the spark plug Caps section, it would be good to review it here, also. ALWAYS TEST YOUR COILS (as described below) BEFORE ASSUMING THEY ARE THE PROBLEM. AND ALWAYS TEST YOUR COILS IF YOU ARE HAVING MIS-FIRING, FOULED PLUGS, OR OTHER (POSSIBLY) IGNITION-RELATED ENGINE PERFORMANCE PROBLEMS.

This will save you an incredible amount of time, effort, and $$$ and give you more quality riding time as opposed to a greater quantity of diagnostic time!


And a final note: using hi-performance, aftermarket coils (like Dyna or Accel brand) will generally NOT "improve the performance" of your bike in any measurable, meaningful way if your factory coils are performing okay. But if your factory system (coils, plug wires, and plug caps) are not up to snuff, then certainly ANY replacement (stock or aftermarket) coils are going to eliminate such problems and "improve performance". Be aware, though, that aftermarket coils can take quite a bit of mounting bracket fabrication efforts to make them fit properly into these cramped XJ frames, and you will have to purchase the plug wires, boots, and caps separately also.



Checking Factory Coils:

Factory Yamaha coils need to "see" a total load resistance on the secondary side (the "going-to-the-plugs" side of the coil) of around 20-30K ohms (ohms being a measure of electrical resistance). Electrical resistance depends on a number of factors: wire size, type of material, length of material, ambient temperature, etc. etc. All readings are specified at 70-F.

In any case, all factory XJ coils and wires combined---BUT WITHOUT THE CAPS OR PLUGS ATTACHED---have the following primary and secondary resistance ranges:


For all XJ models except XJ700, XJ750-X, and XJ900 models:

Primary (input from TCI): 2.5 ohms +/- 10%
= 2.25 ohms - 2.75 ohms acceptable range

Secondary (output to spark plugs): 11K ohms +/- 20%
= 8,800 ohms - 13,200 ohms acceptable range


For all XJ700 and XJ750-X models:

Primary (input from TCI): 2.7 ohms +/- 10%
= 2.43 ohms - 2.97 ohms acceptable range

Secondary (output to spark plugs): 12K ohms +/- 20%
= 9,600 ohms - 14,400 ohms acceptable range


For all XJ900RK, RL, N, FN, and F models:

Primary (input from TCI): 2.7 ohms +/- 10%
= 2.43 ohms - 2.97 ohms acceptable range

Secondary (output to spark plugs): 13.2K ohms +/- 20%
= 10,560 ohms - 15,840 ohms acceptable range


For all XS1100 models:

Primary (input from TCI): 1.5 ohms +/- 10%
= 1.35 ohms -1.65 ohms acceptable range

Secondary (output to spark plugs): 15K ohms +/- 20%
= 12,000 ohms - 18,000 ohms acceptable range




All models:

Voltage at coil positive input terminal (the red wire with the white tracer stripe) with the engine running: 12+V This measurement should be taken at the back of the connector shell (stick the volt meter probe in thru the back of the connector) and the battery negative terminal. Compare this reading with the measured battery voltage (voltmeter connected between the battery negative and the battery positive terminals). Any significant difference or lack of voltage indicates corroded or broken connections in-between the fusebox and the ignition coils, and reduced voltage at the coil input will result in reduced coil output (at the spark plugs). Although reduced voltage input (and thus less coil output voltage) may not significantly affect engine performance once the engine is warmed up, it can and will result in "hard start" situations when the engine is cold and/or when the choke system is engaged (since richer fuel mixtures require a much stronger spark to create ignition of the fuel mixture).



In order to help diagnosing engine performance problems that seem to be "plug-related", always measure the resistance of your coils, both primary and secondary sides, as well as the voltage at the coil input (primary) "hot lead" (the red/white stripe wire) before you start replacing parts. 20+ year old coils can and do fail regularly. If you need to replace your coils, and decide to buy used, original coils "sight unseen", always make sure that the seller checks them for you before you buy them!

 

Sorry I did the earlier post a little backwards...

5a. Switch the Orange and Grey wires from the pickups (6-position TCI plug) at the TCI. If the sparking and non-sparking pairs of plugs swap (i.e. if you had spark on 1/4 and not on 2/3 prior to swapping Orange/Grey and now have spark on 2/3 and not on 1/4) then you've got a bad pickup. If this didn't make a difference, swap the wires back and go to 5b.
This didn't make a difference

5b. Switch the Orange and Grey wires from the coils (4-position TCI plug) at the TCI. If the sparking and non-sparking pairs of plugs swap, then you've got a bad channel in your TCI. You'll need to replace the TCI or get it repaired.
The plugs swapped here

I have tried to filter through all that info you just posted and I am completely clueless:/
I am afraid to buy another TCI if that isn't the problem but I am pretty sure after everything I have crossed, is the problem. It worked when I bought the bike 2 years ago. My fear is ruining another one:/

Is it possible to check my current one or have someone repair it?

 

On top of that I tested the Primary sides of both coils, I got 3.5ohms on both but the secondary side I can not get a reading on either coil (even though one is sparking and the other is not)

 

Way out of spec............they may still work, but will be weak.

Did you remove the plug CAPS before testing?



Typical things that fail (in order of failure prevalence):

a) spark plugs
b) plug caps
c) ignition coils
d) harness connectors
e) pick-up coils
f) TCI

 

Yea, removed the caps, same reading.
Just completely lost right now.
Orange wite reads 12v coming out of the 4 prong connector, gray reads nothing.
When the orange is plugged into a ignition coil, sparks show. Gray nothing.
When I switch the orange and gray wire at the 4 prong harness. I get the opposite.

So I feel like the tci is not sending power Out of the prong where the gray is supposed to be to the ignition. Or the pickup is not sending signal to the tci (gray)?