Difficult start in hot weather.

I have a 1982 XJ550 with ~35,000mi which I bought a year ago.
After a carb. cleaning and sync. by the local dealer in Albuquerque, NM (great guys!) it's been a real pleasure to ride this bike.
The only significant problem with it (aside from weak front breaks to my taste. I replaced the pads and purge the breaks: no difference) is that when it is hot outside (>mid 90's) and either two things:
1. Ran it to running temp. and then parked it for about 30min. Then it is difficult to start it and have to apply throttle while running the starter until it revs up.
2. Let it sit in my carport for 2 or 3 days without running it. Then I have to crank it and crank it. Let it sit for a while, then try again and again, until if finally decides to start. Then it runs like a champ. again.
It's not a major problem, but it is a pain in the rear end.
Anything can be done about this? or is this something I just have to live with because I'm living in this insanely hot place.
By the way, this does not occur in the winter when the outside temp. is much cooler.

Thanks!

Guy

 

VALVE CLEARANCES.

Float levels. There's more to carbs than clean and sync.

(And you'll need to replace those old original brake lines, as well as rebuild the caliper and M/C if you want good brakes. Pads and bleeding won't fix 'em.)

 

If the pistons are not corroded or siezed & not leaking fluid, why would you rebuild them ?

 

Sounds like you still have some carb tuning to do. Check valves and float levels first, a hard starting engine usually indicates a lean idle mixture or worn spark plugs.

 

Sounds like a fuel related issue to me. Stale fuel or a bad batch can cause these symptoms ... insufficient volatiles to start the engine but once running it goes ok. Try starter spray in the airbox, if it fires right up then runs normally, drain the entire fuel system and replace the fuel to eliminate this as a first step. There may be nothing else wrong.

 

My 2 cents,
I was running into the same sort issue with starting after the bike was hot. I ended up with a flat battery a few times because of it too. The only way to get around it was to open the throttle right up and holding it open before hitting the starter, almost like flushing the fuel out with air.

I did the float levels a bunch of times, dry and then wet but in the end I decreased the float levels by 2mm from standard and the hot flooding problem went away.

Worked for me!

 

Thanks to all of you to reply with good suggestions.
I can see where there could be a problem with the carb. or valves for the problem with the engine difficult starting when the engine is hot, but could the other problem (not starting after sitting for several days) be related to fuel evaporating (vapor lock?) from the fuel system due to the hot weather?
I guess I don't quite understand valve clearance or bad fuel could cause that. Wouldn't the engine be difficult to start all the time and run poorly if that was the case? I'm just trying to understand.
Also, after the advise from the local dealer, I've added a fuel stabilizer and conditioner (Yamalube) to the fuel after fuel up, although not after every refuel.

As for the break issue, I'll definitely follow your advise. After all, the bike is old, and when I bled the break system, the first amount of break fluid that came out was pretty dark, darker then the fresh one I put it.
I know a new caliper is pretty expensive, but is a rebuild kit fairly reasonable? I mean, I don't want to sink too much $$ in a bike that is not worth all that much (Outch! Did I just hurt some people's feelings? )

Thanks!

Guy

 

Valve clearences effect valve timing which will cause a rough running engine. Improper carb adjustment will also cause similar problems. Can't fix one without checking the other.
Since you regurally ride and refuel I would eliminate the bad fuel possibility. Not likley you are buying bad gas on a regular basis.
The best improvement for your brakes is to install stainless brake lines. The stock rubber lines break down over time and will expand when the lever is pulled. That line expanding causes the spongy feeling in the lever.

 

Thanks cds, I will also consider that option as it is the thing I have to do to get the engine started when hot in hot wx.

If I was dealing with my little Honda C110 (50cc) that I had when I was a kid, I'd attempt it right away, but with a quad-carb. on this beast, I'll have to do some reading first. I have no idea how to adjust the float levels, and that probably means that I'll have to sync. the carbs afterwards won't I?

 

Technically yanking the carbs out and changing the float levels wouldn't require any other adjustments... a bit of cursing will eventuate I'm sure though.

Valve shim clearance, syncing and colourtuning(mix screw adjustments) are all a must for the bike to run sweet at the end of the day, mind you!

 

You need to get a service manual and do some reading. The procedures are not hard , just educate yourself first.

 

Correct but this is a hard starting bike, not a rough running one.

No !

He didn't say how often he rides or changes the gas, nor how long the symptoms have been present. Even so bad gas symptoms are there, you cannot eliminate this until you drain the fuel system and put new fuel in it. From my reading "the bike ran great till the hot weather", and the two are not necessarily cause and effect.

Brake issues are a separate problem.

 

I think that you managed to talk me into doing myself. I must admit that reading this forum, I realize that there's a gold mine of people like you that could bail me out if things go wrong. It's comforting to know!

I'm somewhat reluctant to get into a big project with this bike, because they're my wheels that I use every day to go to work and go around. I have a truck, but the bike is sooo much more fun to ride and cheaper to run.
Also, other than that problem, the engine runs really nice, so there's the little "If if runs, don't f*** with it" ringing in my head

As for the brakes, that I'll have to do because it could be a safety issue (rear brake is fine btw).

Thanks again.

 

NO Start: Warm.
NO Start: Cold
Difficult to Start.
Needs excessive cranking to start, ... all add-up to --> CARBS!

The Enrichment Circuiits ...
Fuel Bowl Metering Jets
Siphon Tubes
Passages
Upper Valving, ... Needs to get cleaned; big time.

Pilot Jets / Passages ... <-- Those too!

Plus, ... everything else.

Leaning-on that Starter and Cranking that thing over-n-over is only going to make life more complicated for you if the Starter Clutch decides it had enough of you trying to start a Bike way out of tuning, ... and quits.

 

Ian: To clarify, the engine runs great whether it's hot or cold outside, it's just the starting that has some issue when the wx is hot.

Also, I forgot to ask about the service manual. I have a maintenance and repair manual by "Clymer" (Yamaha xj550, xj600 & FJ600 from 1981 to 1992). It's definitely better than nothing, but if there is something better out there, I'd be interested, especially about carburetors.

In a previous life, I worked as a mechanic in a small engine shop. Briggs & Stratton's engines are one thing, but these high performance motorcycle engines are something totally different ;-)

guy

 

If you got Small Engine experience, ... you're Golden.

All you need is a Factory Workshop Manual.

Get your hands on a Manual and take it one step at a time.

 

Thanks Rick!

I think that I'm going to start reading a lot before I get my hands dirty.
Just like I read on a post somewhere on this forum (paraphrasing) : "You have to understand what each of those little holes and ... before you start"
I think it's a good idea, and it'd be fun to learn anyway.

Guy

 

Read more carefully, he does mention refulling.
Even so his problems are pointing to the carbs

 

Wow! I just finished reading the thread about gas-mileage and I'm realizing that my 550 really needs tuning.
Granted, I'm only doing city driving AND short distance (my work is just over two miles from my house, and the stores are even closer... it's a very small town), but I'm getting almost 30mpg. I refilled tonight and I got about 29.3mpg.
When "cruising" I'm usually between 3k and 4k.
Just when I thought that my engine was running great... :roll:

 

30mpg from a 550 is telling you something ain't right somewhere.

The Clymer book is "OK" but the factory book is better. (They come up on eBay all the time.) That being said, BOTH books leave a lot out, the best thing is to have both of them plus this web site. (Neither book discusses things like the tach drive oil seals, for instance.) And the valve adjustment photographs suck, which is why I did this: http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=14827.html

To respond to Wiz' comment; you rebuild a 30-year old caliper because the rubber seals in it only had a two-year recommended lifespan, and if it's not sticking or leaking it soon will once put back in service. Likewise the 4-year recommended lifespan brake lines.

When I first got my 550 I thought it ran great, too. Then I got it properly adjusted and tuned and discovered how the 550 is really supposed to run.

You may be surprised. I was.

 

My brand new 1978 XS 500 had a rear caliper failure in 1982.

Guy_ak , your bike is worth exactly what YOU think it's worth, until you go to sell it. Welcome to the site !!

 

Fitz: I've just read your fantastic post about how to adjust the valve clearance, and all the related posts (I think I went to bed ~2:30am ).
Following your advise, I will start by doing this before tackling the carburator. Your explanation about which to do first makes a lot of sense.
Before I start, I'd like to know more or less all that I need because I don't want this bike to sit for too long because.... well, you know :wink:
So far, here is my list:
-Metric feeler gauge
-Valve cover gasket
-Washer/donuts for valve cover bolts
-Special tool to hold valve bucket in place
-Micrometer
-Shims (but for that I'll have to figure out which ones first)
Will I find any of that stuff at a dealer's? Or I have to order everything online?
By the way, I didn't quite understand if I do or don't need a special tool to rotate the valve bucket and/or to extract the shims. I have hemostats (used to be in EMS business) and hopefully non-magnetic screwdriver.

About documentation, all I've found so far is the service manual for an XJ550RH. Mine is a XJ500J. Will it help me, or should I look for the exact match for my bike.
By the way, what is the factory manual called exactly, so I can do a keyword search on eBay?

Finally, do you, or someone else have one of those fantastic post, like you made for the valve clearance adjust., for carb. adjust./sync procedure? That would be so awesome. All those should be kept under some easily accessible place on this forum btw. There should be some "Virtual Library" somewhere on this site. Then, newbies like me wouldn't have to bother you guys all the time. There's the seach engine, but if you are new, you don't necessarily know which keyword to use, so you often miss a lot of information source. My $0.02.

TimetoRide:
I know what you mean. When I first bought the bike, it wasn't the one I wanted. The one I wanted had just been sold under my nose. But you know, I just wanted wheels to go to work, nothing more, so it didn't matter that much. The dealer (I didn't buy it from the dealer), after inspection and carb. clean and resync., told me that the engine was sound, and except for a few little things it was a good buy, but he did tell me that at that age they're worth about a $ per cc
Anyway, since then I've got to really love this bike. I mean, it's no Superbike by any stretch of the imagination, but it sure is fun to drive around town.
So, you're right, it's really worth what we think it's worth. I was not going to spend much money on this bike (just enough to keep it safe), but I'm slowly being sucked in, especially after looking at some photos that you guys post of your "projects". It would be a real hoot to bring this bike back to a resemblance of its youth.

Hey, thanks again to all you guys for technical and moral support on this project!!!

Guy

 

definitely check out len chacal at xj4ever. he's got all the manuals, everything you need for your carbs, valves, and then some. plus you'll learn a lot. i couldn't even spell carbs before i found this site. now look at me, i can spell and i have a set of squeaky clean carbs. i used nothing more than rickomatic's carb cleaning guide http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=2 ... n+own.html and a lot of good info from the xj4ever catalog http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=14561.html good luck

 

To address your unanswered questions:

-No special tool required to rotate the bucket before popping the shim out, they're free to rotate as long as the cam isn't pressing them down; I just use the tip of my screwdriver to "drag" the notch around so I can see it before having the cam push it down.

-As far as the book goes, there is a "Maxim" supplement to the 'base' 550 book, which is the RH manual. In the case of the 550s, all the Max supplement contains are the specs pages with the slight differences and different cable routing diagrams, etc. There are NO "service procedures" covered in the Maxim supplement, as there's nothing you do differently. If possible, find a full XJ550H/RH book, containing the Maxim supplement; but it's not critically necessary. DON'T buy just the Maxim supplement thinking it's the whole book.

(A quick side note on the model numbers. "R" means Seca; but in the case of the 550s it was the "base" bike. "H, J, K" are the model-year designators and don't matter one bit when it comes to the 550s; all three years were mechanically identical.)

If you're worried about resale value or intrinsic worth, you bought the wrong bike. If you want to RIDE the sucker, and they are a blast, then you'll need to sink a few bucks into doing some things right. And those things are properly tuning the motor, fixing the brakes, and attending to the suspension and tires. Cosmetics are up to you. But the 550 Maxim has great potential: see http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=31614.html and http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=32168.html

Oh, and I've personally never done a pictorial on carb sync because A: It's covered very well in the factory and aftermarket books; and B: Not everyone can afford or cares to purchase a four-stick manometer, such as the factory tool, but it's what I use. The actual sync prodedure is quite simple; it's getting the carbs cleaned and the float levels set that are the real challenging bits and we've got those covered.

For a quick reference in regard to the differences between the Hitachis covered by Rick's tutorial and your Mikunis, see: http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=31061.html

Most of the tech articles you need you'll find in "FAQ Suggestions." (Getting the important ones moved to "XJ FAQ Final" seems to be impossible.)

And this one, possibly the most important of all, is in "Announcements" http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=15874.html START HERE.

More good info gathered together here: http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=27544.html

And in my reply to this thread: http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=32762.html you'll find my checklist for recommissioning a 550.

Get busy, and keep us posted. Feel free to ask questions.

 

Ok, so I took the plunge and checked the valve clearances.
So, of course now I have to take my truck to work tomorrow and the next few days

Not too bad, but still took me 4 hours, and I'll still have to change 4 of the shims, so probably another 2 hours.
Overall, they were not too bad. One exhaust was a little tight, two of the intakes were a little loose and one of the intake was way tight.

Now, for replacement parts, I've looked at the prices at Bikebandits: Outch!!
$100 for a new valve cover gasket, and $17 a pop for those little donuts !?!
That ain't cheap. Could I get away not replacing them? They don't look in too bad a shape.

What type of "goop" should I use on the gasket to make a good seal?

While I was at it, I checked the color of the spark plugs: They all look exactly the same, light gray in color (dry and no deposit). Is that about the color they should be?

Thanks for all you guys' help.

Guy

 

You need to get ahold of XJ4Ever (pm member chacal, catalog link at the upper right of the site banner, or email info "at" XJ4Ever.com) for your parts. Paying Yamaha list+Bike Bandito's markup will run you broke real quick.

If you don't replace the donuts and the gasket, it will leak. You can "goop" it until you're blue in the face, it WILL leak. You cannot overtighten the cover bolts so the donuts and gasket simply have to be right to do their job. Use gasket sealer to glue your new gasket to the cover for ease of installation; and lube the mating side with silicone grease or even motor oil. The gasket and donuts are then re-usable for many more cover removal/replacements.

XJBikes LAW #1: NO SHORTCUTS.

 

Hit XJ4ever up much better prices. For under 100.00 you can get everything you need to do a valve gasket replacement with shipping. I don't have the exact figure but it was no more than 75.00. Hell, I got a ton of stuff for around 210.00. Just waiting for it all to show up. Ordered last Friday and it shipped last Friday. I am planning on Sunday being work on the bike day.

I am not really experienced at working on these bikes but I can tell you 100% what bigfitz says is the truth no short cuts do it right and you'll not have to do it again. These bikes are simplistic complexity if I ever saw it. amazing engineering went in to them and while they are not overly complicated, they are not all that simple as well.

 

Fitz:
Could you clarify a little bit for me. On your last message you said that if I don't replace the donut washers and gasket, it's going to leak.
But later you said that the gasket and donuts are then re-usable for many cover removal.
I guess I don't get it.
Thanks,

Guy

 

Bigfitz means, After you replace the donuts and gasket you can remove the valve cover a bunch of times before having to replace it again. Since you should check the valve clearances every 5,000 miles.

 

I got the shims and gaskets I ordered on Thursday (that was fast!) and installed them this Saturday. Everything went pretty smooth. Got the bike started and went for a couple of test runs. So far, everything is running smooth and no leaks on the valve cover.
Next, I was going to check the compression (going down Ian's list), but I realized that my compression gauge doesn't have a 12mm adapter, so I had to order one.
The most painful part of working on these bikes is the waiting game ;-)
Next will be tackling the carbs (ugh).
Thanks again for all you guys' help!

Guy

 

You can test compression anytime; heck, it's even EASIER with the carbs off!

Go ahead and get busy on the carbs, don't wait for your compression gauge adapter.

 

Well, so much for that.
Got my compression tester. Removed all plugs, taped throttle to full, installed tester on cyl.#1, and cranked. Noticed that the started ran kind of slow. Even though I know my battery is good, I plugged in a charger. Same, even slower. Tried a couple of more time and then... nothing.
I think I fried my starter! :evil:
If it keeps going in this direction, my whole budget for a new bike is going to end up in this bike.
Sorry, just venting...

 

The starter may just be gummed up, or your solenoid is on it's last legs. Quick test for the solenoid is to bypass it: just jump across the two BIG terminals ***shower of sparks alert*** if the starter spins fine suspect the solenoid.

Don't assume the battery to be good unless you just replaced it. Pull it, fully charge it, and take it to the auto parts store to be load tested.

 

You must have dropped a mirror or something!

 

@Rick: That must be it! Although, I'm not superstitious because that would bring me all kinds of bad luck.

@Fitz: Just did the test with the solenoid like you mentioned in your last message, and I'm getting the same result, so it's pointing toward the starter itself, or the starter clutch.
By the way, my battery is brand-new. I replaced it when I replaced the stator of the alternator.
Is there something in there that can seize? When I press the starter button (actually, shoving a metal object in the hole because the little button fell off), it makes sounds like it's turning slowly with a slight squeaking sound like something seized in there. I'm not familiar with what's between the starter and the engine, so I can't theorize too much.
Should I try to remove the starter and look in there? Is it fairly straight forward?

 

I just took the starter out and disassembled it.
Ok, that's probably going to sound like a stupid question (and probably IS a stupid question), but the starter motor is not supposed to swim in a bath of oil, is it?
When I opened it, nasty black, I mean ink black goop came out of it. Everything inside was coated with it, including brushes, etc...
I've been spending 1-1/2hr cleaning it (a roll of blue paper towel and a box of Q-tip later...), and it's looking pretty clean now.
I have not been using any chemical to do this because I don't know if anything in there is sensitive to solvents.
As there are no bearings on either end of the motor, what do I do to lubricate this thing without contaminating all the electrical contacts again?
What a mess...

Thanks!

 

All right, the starter is fixed.
I cleaned the mess, sanded the commutator and brushes of the motor, lubed the parts that I felt needed lubing and put it back in. Works like a charm now.

Next, I went back to what I was doing originally, that is checking the compression. Here are the result:
Cyl. 1: 110psi
Cyl. 2: 90psi
Cyl. 3: 100psi
Cyl. 4: 120psi

Realizing that these values are low, I then repeated the test for Cyl. 2 (the worst one), after squirting oil in the cylinder. With the oil, the compression went up to 150psi.
I guess, we know what the problem is... ugh.

How involved is the replacement of piston rings?

I think that by the time I'm done, this engine will be completely rebuilt. Maybe it might make more sense for me to spend all this money on a new bike instead.

 

Did you test compression with the throttle wide open?

Need to hold the throttles open (or even better with the carbs off) To get a good gulp of air in there for the test.

If not, retest and post those numbers, they may not be far off of correct.

 

Did you do the compression test with the motor warmed up or bone-cold?

 

Yes and yes (to use Fitz favorite expression ;-) )
I rode the bike a couple or three miles prior to the test (a bitch getting the plugs out without burning myself), put a spark plug in one of the caps (the service manual says that you can't run the engine without any spark plug attached), taped the throttle wide open, checked each cylinder one after the other with the compression tester and finally did cylinder #2 after squirting a little bit of oil in it.

Guy

 

The actual process itself is pretty straightforward.

However, since the bike has 30K and you'd have to pull the head, may as well lap the valves, and replace the valve stem seals while in there.

Then it's just a matter of measuring the cylinders to see if they still meet 'stock' spec or would need an overbore; then finding rings OR oversize pistons AND rings if overboring is required.

Just finding new pistons and rings for a 550 will be a bit of a challenge; let alone the cost involved.

Rather than a whole other bike, it might be more practical to find a lower-mileage motor that blows good compression numbers and just swap mills.

 

Fitz,

Thanks for letting me know about my options.
I would imagine that it wouldn't that easy to find a low mile engine for this bike.
I think that my best option is so maybe spend a little bit more money on fixing up the carbs and then run it until the engine gives up. I might be able to run it for a few more thousand miles, wouldn't I?
The problem is that this bike is currently my transportation not just a project bike. In other words, I can't afford to open the engine and wait until I can find parts from another engine.
Maybe, I should go ahead and buy a new bike and keep this one as a project, and thus someday fix it well, but I'd have time to do it.
Anyone has better idea of what options I'd have at this point?
Thanks for putting up with all my questions.

Guy

 

It's easier than you might think, but still not necessarily a quick proposition. The 550s were around for three years in both Seca and Maxim form.

Sure. It's not gonna run like it did when new, but if you get the carbs 100% and get it as sync'ed as possible and tuned to within an inch of its life it'll run for you. A bit funky, but it'll run. Probably for quite a while.

Then in the meantime you can poke about for a motor or even another bike. You might stumble across another 550 in better shape yet, and end up using this one as a parts bike.